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  1. #341
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    And I did the math, M+ is not even remotely close.
    Remember that stats are going to have diminishing returns in Shadowlands so stacking the same stats will not necessarily be good. I think it is wrong to assume that 50 % of the loot pool in M+ will be useless especially in the beginning when players have bad gear. A piece of 226 loot will probably always be an upgrade in the beginning of the tier. Again, I don't really see an issue. I don't think doing +14-15 keys should give the exact same reward as doing mythic raiding. I would agree that doing +20 keys should give a better reward. Personally I think it's a mistake by Blizzard to cap M+ gear at +15. It is way to easy.

  2. #342
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    your math is flawed from onset because you're doing it with the assumption M+ guy does 1 dungeon a week
    Doesn't matter how many you do since you dont get 220 from them, just below heroic level loot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Remember that stats are going to have diminishing returns in Shadowlands so stacking the same stats will not necessarily be good. I think it is wrong to assume that 50 % of the loot pool in M+ will be useless especially in the beginning when players have bad gear. A piece of 226 loot will probably always be an upgrade in the beginning of the tier. Again, I don't really see an issue. I don't think doing +14-15 keys should give the exact same reward as doing mythic raiding. I would agree that doing +20 keys should give a better reward. Personally I think it's a mistake by Blizzard to cap M+ gear at +15. It is way to easy.
    Even more than 50% is useless. 50% was really generous.

    Diminishing returns won't hit you till like last patch of expansion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tesshin20 View Post
    Then your math is flowed. It doesn't represent reality.
    Yeah because its over generous to M+ side, reality will be even worse as I would say maybe 30% of dungeon loot is actually useful, while in raids you got 30 items so there can't be less than 50%.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    All of that assumes a few things.
    The raider is doing as many M+ as the M+ guy or any at all. So you arent really comparing a M+ guy to a raider. You are comparing 2 M+ players where 1 also raids.
    Heroic raid vault rewards are = to that of M+15 vault rewards
    Vault also gives you options if you just did raid boss, no need to actually do M+. its just a bonus option.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    "After first week raider has 2 items and M+ guy got only one"
    Why is it assumed the raider is getting 2 items week 1 and the M+ guy gets 1?
    As far as I know you get to collect 1 item from the vault per week regardless of how many content types you complete.
    8 bosses * 2 items per boss = 16 pieces of loot, almost guaranteed to get one item.
    Exactly 80% chance to just drop item - 220. Well you wont be doing all M bosses first week anyways but still fairly high chance to get something.
    Then you got another chance from coins
    Another chance if someone gets dupe (not first week tho)
    And another chance at great vault.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    "The crux here is that since vault ALSO offers items from raid raider got actually higher chance to get something useful than dungeon guy despite having more slots filled up."
    No? unless a raid piece is on average more useful than a M+ piece of equal ilvl. This is a total shot in the dark and depends on the stats your class wants. Nya'lotha for example had 1 PIECE that was bis itemization for my class on all slots that use standard secondary itemization(so not counting azerite or trinkets) while M+ has a leather crit/vers piece for every slot and multiple on some of those slots. Now how does that effect the collection rate of well itemized gear?
    Yes, because chance of hitting one item per 100 is exactly 1%. That excludes trinkets as usually raid got OP shit trinks.
    And lets not forget about raid trash loot.
    There is much much higher chance to hit something useful from raid than M+. Due to sheer amount of garbo loot there.
    Plus you can coin what you want from bosses, cant do that from M+ chest. Cant target specific dungeon loot in any way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    As you said raiding results in more gear trading so the acquisition rate of your well itemized pieces happens quickly in raid by comparison to M+ also the average coin value in raid is higher than that of M+(due to loot pool size per boss vs dungeon). So the value of the bonus raid loot slots on the vault will decline faster than that of M+ slots. A raider who doesn't run M+ will very quickly stop seeing upgrades from the vault.
    Raiders will do these 4 dungeons regardless. Lets be honest here.

  3. #343
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Even more than 50% is useless. 50% was really generous.
    It depends what gear you have. To be fair, doing +14-15 keys should not even give 226 gear at all. People should be doing +20 keys to get that loot. M+ players should just feel lucky that they are able to get that level of loot with ease.

  4. #344
    Stood in the Fire Krimzin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeiVias View Post
    Anyone arguing Mythic+ should have the same level gear as Mythic raiding is an idiot, Mythic raiding isn't easy and anyone doing it deserves the best loot.

    I do think high level Mythic+ should have the same ilvl as Heroic raiding though.

    The nerf to loot drop chance was enough, they didn't need to lower the ilvl as well.
    \


    Completely agree. However, I think Blizzard is setting the stage for Higher Mythic+ rewards, meaning rewards up to Mythic+20 which will be above Heroic but below Mythic Raids. Just as Mythic15 ilvl was in BFA
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  5. #345
    Pandaren Monk taishar68's Avatar
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    Just for reference, here is the stat increase on a given item from Nathria on all 4 levels of difficulty:

    RF Normal Heroic Mythic
    Item Level 187 200 213 226
    Main Stat 56 64 72 82
    Stamina 90 106 126 149
    Sec. 1 48 52 56 61
    Sec 2 64 69 75 81
    Increase
    Main Stat - 8 8 10
    Stamina - 16 20 23
    Sec. 1 - 4 4 5
    Sec 2 - 5 6 6

    Based on those increments, it is reasonable to assume a similar item with an ilvl of 210 would have about 70 main stat, 120 stam, 54 on stat 1, and 73 on stat 2. I know scaling will be different in SL but I am hard pressed to see that level of granularity being hugely impactful to player performance. Which kind of makes you wonder why they don't just make Mythic + gear 213 as well, but it doesn't really seem like a big deal, performance wise.
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  6. #346
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    It depends what gear you have. To be fair, doing +14-15 keys should not even give 226 gear at all. People should be doing +20 keys to get that loot. M+ players should just feel lucky that they are able to get that level of loot with ease.
    Obviously we are comparing it to normal/mythic loot. Item with bad stats can be worse than "bis" counterpart that is 15 ilvls lower. 16 in SL.

    To actually match that power you need at least one of two good stat and THIRD stat. Any other combination is worse.
    Unless you play class that has flat scaling but haven't seen that since mop.

  7. #347
    Quote Originally Posted by Tesshin20 View Post
    By raiding and doing dungeons for 15 years.
    Obviously, you're not that good at it if it takes you almost half a year to gear up.

  8. #348
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    People will be obliged to not join any M+ until they have run the dungeon where they need loot.

    For example, no 2h spec would join any M+ until they've done their weekly Kings Rest run first to get a shot at Get'ikku.

    Also causes massive issues for the more organized groups, because you then have to settle on a dungeon that you're doing first within the week, if someone needs a Trinket from Dungeon X, but someone else needs a weapon from Dungeon Y, you would either have to log onto alts (which in turn have to "use" their lockout) or someone needs to take the bullet and waste their Lockout on the highest Ilvl.
    I agree, but I think it could be somehow tweaked to solve some of those issues at least partially, like maybe using the ekstra roll style mechanic here as a deciding factor on which instance you want to get loot. So you finish an instance and than you decide if you want to use your weekly chance for loot at that specific reward tier. You could finish 5 other instances where you don't need the loot and than go and try to get gettiku. You could also do for example +11 and use your chance and then you finish +12 (higher reward tier) and you can again use your loot chance for that tier (one chance per loot tier per week). Or lets say you did +12 KR and gettiku didnt drop after you used your chance, you do +12 KR again (you found a group for the same key), and you again can use your chance but it would drop +11 item level.

    I'm just taking this idea out of top of my head but I do think that there could be some improvements. Anyway, no system is perfect and there are always some pros and cons, the idea is to make as many people happy as possible, not everyone. That's impossible.

  9. #349
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post

    Vault also gives you options if you just did raid boss, no need to actually do M+. its just a bonus option.
    Yes I'm aware but your entire comparison is raider vs M+ player, but in reality thats a dishonest comparison cause you are actually doing 2 M+ players where 1 raids and 1 doesn't



    8 bosses * 2 items per boss = 16 pieces of loot, almost guaranteed to get one item.
    Exactly 80% chance to just drop item - 220. Well you wont be doing all M bosses first week anyways but still fairly high chance to get something.
    Then you got another chance from coins
    Another chance if someone gets dupe (not first week tho)
    And another chance at great vault.
    O so we are also assuming full clearing mythic raid week 1... interesting. We should calculate gear acquisition based on something ~5 guilds can do globally? Then correlate that to being the average for all "raiders" against what the average M+ player does? Weird hill to fight on. In a more realistic world a raider will spend 8-12 hours a week progging and you wont see 3/3 mythic raid bonus pool for a month or 2.


    Yes, because chance of hitting one item per 100 is exactly 1%. That excludes trinkets as usually raid got OP shit trinks.
    And lets not forget about raid trash loot.
    There is much much higher chance to hit something useful from raid than M+. Due to sheer amount of garbo loot there.
    Plus you can coin what you want from bosses, cant do that from M+ chest. Cant target specific dungeon loot in any way.
    Going off bfa for a comparison, average dungeon is 1-2 perfect to very well itemized pieces that you can coin for, raid boss is < 1. You are still more likely to to hit the raid pieces faster with coins because of smaller pools but you also have less access to the high lvl versions of the pieces that come from the end of the raid. (cant coin bosses you arent on but 15's are clearable right away)




    Raiders will do these 4 dungeons regardless. Lets be honest here.
    What % of raiders will gain more than 1 M+ option? What % of raiders will gain 2+ options from mythic raid within the first 3 weeks? What % of M+ players will participate in some raid content and get a raid option? You can't assume the options that favor you.

  10. #350
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    eh... what?
    reducing reward from end of run will not hurt boost sellers, quite the opposite i think, it will lead to more people buying boosts, as PUGS wont take m+ only players due to low gear...
    Are you even actually thinking? Of course pugs will take people with only m+ gear. It's only 3 ilvl less than heroic and everyone knows that's too high. There will be less carries because it isn't worth as much.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  11. #351
    Quote Originally Posted by Nuciek View Post
    like maybe using the ekstra roll style mechanic here as a deciding factor on which instance you want to get loot. So you finish an instance and than you decide if you want to use your weekly chance for loot at that specific reward tier.
    That is basically the weekly chest, except you can now choose from which Instance you want loot and you'd only get one proper item per week from M+.

    Again, doesn't work.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nuciek View Post
    I'm just taking this idea out of top of my head but I do think that there could be some improvements.
    I stick to what i originally said: M+ is not compatible with lockout based systems, the system is built upon repetition without lockout, raids aren't.

  12. #352
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Also, it is completely incorrect that a +14 dungeon is harder than heroic bosses at the beginning of an expansion.
    I can't agree with that. In my experience the highest reward dungeon key has been consistently harder than heroic raid bosses.

    It's not that the dungeon itself is inherently more difficult, the issue is obtaining the key. Heroic raid bosses have very lenient enrage timers, so you can kill them while undergeared. But M+ needs to be done fast to upgrade your key, which is less lenient on gear. That's why I'm comparing the higher M+ keys to mythic, not heroic.

  13. #353
    Quote Originally Posted by Nite92 View Post
    M+ gear is marginally weaker and you get literally the same reward from the vault for m+ and raiding. What exactly is the issue here?
    WRONG.

    You only get the same option if you're mythic raiding. A heroic raider will get heroic options. Someone doing the easier than heroic raiding +15 will get mythic ilvl. To be fair, +15 should only give heroic ilvl chest options.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  14. #354
    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    Yes I'm aware but your entire comparison is raider vs M+ player, but in reality thats a dishonest comparison cause you are actually doing 2 M+ players where 1 raids and 1 doesn't
    Even without counting options from M+ its still better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    O so we are also assuming full clearing mythic raid week 1... interesting. We should calculate gear acquisition based on something ~5 guilds can do globally? Then correlate that to being the average for all "raiders" against what the average M+ player does? Weird hill to fight on. In a more realistic world a raider will spend 8-12 hours a week progging and you wont see 3/3 mythic raid bonus pool for a month or 2.
    Read what I said fully.


    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    Going off bfa for a comparison, average dungeon is 1-2 perfect to very well itemized pieces that you can coin for, raid boss is < 1. You are still more likely to to hit the raid pieces faster with coins because of smaller pools but you also have less access to the high lvl versions of the pieces that come from the end of the raid. (cant coin bosses you arent on but 15's are clearable right away)
    Except M+ loot is not 16 ilvls behind (technically with that gear scaling its more like 20 ilvls now). But just 10. And still most loot drops are best from raid.




    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    What % of raiders will gain more than 1 M+ option? What % of raiders will gain 2+ options from mythic raid within the first 3 weeks? What % of M+ players will participate in some raid content and get a raid option? You can't assume the options that favor you.
    At the start? 90% of M raiders will go for at least 2 options.

    And the thing is. Even if you participate as M+ player in raids then best you could go for is heroic.

    Trying to main M+ will get you stuck forever in limbo, unable to progress.

  15. #355
    Quote Originally Posted by Valette View Post
    Theres a "cheat" to combat this. You can just log out -> log into an alt -> heal your pets -> log back into your main -> try again
    Yeah, I know about that one. It's still annoying cause a couple strats in the most recent dungeon are of the "spam aoe and healing moves for 60 rounds and hope the enemy doesn't get too many crits." Thanks for informing, though.
    The most difficult thing for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back. The second most is to receive something they didn't want or ask for and be grateful for it, not immediately demand what they wanted instead.

  16. #356
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    WRONG.

    You only get the same option if you're mythic raiding. A heroic raider will get heroic options. Someone doing the easier than heroic raiding +15 will get mythic ilvl. To be fair, +15 should only give heroic ilvl chest options.
    And that is why you need to do a +15 and not a +10. So that you cannot easily obtain mythic ilvl gear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yriel View Post
    I mean, playing the whole game is a big effort, what do i get in RL for puting up with that?
    Do you know the difference between a relative comparison and an absolute statement?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    eh... what? if you are lucky it will take 16 weeks, as of now if you are lucky it takes... 16 weeks... you still only get one item per week, so the luck is partialy eliminated, but it still takes ages, nothing changed about weekly, well 14 is enough now, thats mildly positive change but not worth what we are loosing...
    Fuck me. Why do you talk about math if you have no idea. You are saying that winning the lottery for millions of money is just like getting 5 green lights in a row.
    EVERYTHING changed about the weekly. You get 3 different slots to choose from each week. This helps so much and makes the system so much better... Just the fact that you do not realize that, is proof that you have no clue what you are talking about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    It's normal gear, it's 2.5 tiers lower than what you get in mythic.
    Have you even checked any of the ilvls? How can you be so confident in BS. Mythic +14 rewards 210 ilvl. HC is 213, normal is 200. How is normal equal to M+. Please do explain.

  17. #357
    Why do M+ fans think it’s fair that their gear should be equal Or close to mythic drops From raid when they get an unlimited about of bites at the cake?

    I think over 15+ should reward mythic equiv gear if after completing a run, they are locked out from doing M+ for the remainder of the lockout period.

  18. #358
    Quote Originally Posted by LDancer View Post
    Why do M+ fans think it’s fair that their gear should be equal Or close to mythic drops From raid when they get an unlimited about of bites at the cake?

    I think over 15+ should reward mythic equiv gear if after completing a run, they are locked out from doing M+ for the remainder of the lockout period.
    Imagine if it worked like horrific visions. 1 470 piece a week and dassit

  19. #359
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    It's much weaker and most will not clear a +14 for many, many months, if ever while HC raids are just a cakewalk.
    People that take months to clear +14 won't even clear normal let alone heroic and you think that justifies +15 giving max ilvl gear? +15 is by far the easiest way to get the best gear. All you need is 4 average players.

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    Quote Originally Posted by keldarepewpew View Post
    Because of mythic plus endless repeatable high tier loot everyone and his mother was forced to farm it like crazy. Good riddance i dont want to be f orced to spend time inside of mythic plus just so i can raid/pvp.
    I didn't realise that PvP and raiding was locked behind doing m+. No one has ever forced you to do anything in wow.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  20. #360
    Quote Originally Posted by taishar68 View Post
    Just for reference, here is the stat increase on a given item from Nathria on all 4 levels of difficulty:

    RF Normal Heroic Mythic
    Item Level 187 200 213 226
    Main Stat 56 64 72 82
    Stamina 90 106 126 149
    Sec. 1 48 52 56 61
    Sec 2 64 69 75 81
    Increase
    Main Stat - 8 8 10
    Stamina - 16 20 23
    Sec. 1 - 4 4 5
    Sec 2 - 5 6 6

    Based on those increments, it is reasonable to assume a similar item with an ilvl of 210 would have about 70 main stat, 120 stam, 54 on stat 1, and 73 on stat 2. I know scaling will be different in SL but I am hard pressed to see that level of granularity being hugely impactful to player performance. Which kind of makes you wonder why they don't just make Mythic + gear 213 as well, but it doesn't really seem like a big deal, performance wise.
    Because it means you won't be able to trade gear in Heroic right away to funnel it. 3 ilvls less is not much, that's very true, but it IS major when it comes to combating split raiding. I don't have an issue with that, M+ being a repeatable source of gear means having slightly lower ilvl than a non-repeatable one makes some sense, but lowering the drop rate as well just makes the farming longer for those who farm, and the normal gearing process longer for those who do not.

    Then again, if raid bosses also drop less gear, that's less of an issue and more equaling the playing field so as to deliberately distribute fewer items to players.
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