I thought we left the mindset that raiding is better than everything else back in WoD

[Delever]

Why does it matter that the highest ilvl gear comes from raiding, so long as the highest m+ ilvl gear can help you clear at least the highest m+ there are achievements for? Will people who want to be world first m+ teams do mythic raiding? Yes. Why is that a problem?

Because apparantely 3 ilvls from the end of dungeon make the sky fall

[Toybox]

Raiding is a way to get the gear. Never really been a source of ”Fun”. Unless we are talking about the less stressful classic, That is good stuff. But BFA raiding is bad.

Speak for yourself. Raiding with the lads is a good time for me, otherwise I simply wouldn't do it. Hell, it's the only reason I actually came back to BfA at all after being unsubbed for 70% of the expansion

[kaminaris]

Dude your high. The majority of the playerbase lies in M+ and a good portion of us prefer it that way. For the group that prefers raiding heroic and likes they don't feel forced to grind M+ that was always an option. No one forced you to do it, but you did because the barrier to entry(5 instead of 20) is easier.

They are cutting off their nose to spite their face. The perception of Blizzard after finally getting smaller scale content with M+ right now killing it for sperg Heroic raiders who need to be carried by the good players in their raids and are happy about this change.

Mythic raiders won't give a shit, all this does is prevent the WFR from gear trading in heroic splits at the start. So Blizzard is cool loosing a bunch of subs because the high end Mythic raid addicts will remain, and they'll still be around to carry you're average spergs for gold. I hope your ready to buy a shitload of tokens cause once they lose all us old timers who came back in Legion for small scale challenging content all that's going to be left are the carriers and the carries.

Yep, that is correct. Again, when 10 man raids was a thing it was vastly prefered over 25 even if they gave a bit worse rewards. Current heroic is not comparable to that as it has cut mechanics and can be cleared first week.

[Whiskeyjac]

Yep, that is correct. Again, when 10 man raids was a thing it was vastly prefered over 25 even if they gave a bit worse rewards. Current heroic is not comparable to that as it has cut mechanics and can be cleared first week.

Preferred by who? I know most guilds always aimed to do 25s back in the day and that is coming from someone in a world top ten 10 man for siege... Now more ten mans were ran then 25 but a lot of them where simply guilds splitting their teams for extra loot.

I am actually in favor of ten man raiding but I believe it needs raids designed around 10 people rather then trying to make a one size fits all boss battle.

[kaminaris]

Because apparantely 3 ilvls from the end of dungeon make the sky fall

6-9 ilvls, equivalent of current 10 ilvs. Or 15 ilvls compared to 2 last heroic bosses. It's not our problem you cant see that this is massive nerf.

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Preferred by who? I know most guilds always aimed to do 25s back in the day and that is coming from someone in a world top ten 10 man for siege... Now more ten mans were ran then 25 but a lot of them where simply guilds splitting their teams for extra loot.

I am actually in favor of ten man raiding but I believe it needs raids designed around 10 people rather then trying to make a one size fits all boss battle.

By vast majority of players.
https://www.engadget.com/2012-04-20-...man-raids.html

[Raelbo]

But that does just create an in every point superior gearing path.

1. you can wipe your way through and still get loot. The difficulty comes from the timer not the actuall mobs
2. you can repeat it infinitly. So you can be done with the game on day one.

but
1. Everyone who does not have the time to grind 24/7 will be completly left behind
2. everyone who HAS the time and interest will probably burn out
3. you won't get any of the good feeling of reseving loot later in the patch
4. patch is over for many way earlier... results in bitching about how there is nothing to do....

IMHO they should remove the infinit end of dungeon loot in Mythic+ completly and you get 5 chances (!!!!) to receive loot per week. Nothing more. Then i would be ok with what you said. Still annoyed. As i don't see high dungeons on par with mythic raiding. But that is my problem to deal with.

But completly fucking up raid loot is not really a solution

Agreed. The fact that you can essentially get infinite loot chances from M+ is a problem. And this is amplified when combined with systems like WF/TF (a system I still believe was excellent and remains very unjustly maligned) or Corruptions.

I like the solution they came up with for Horrific Visions and I think they should apply it to M+ as well. Basically you should only be able to get the loot for each M+ level once per week. If you've already received the loot for that level, then it should award you loot for the next unlooted level down. So if you've already completed a M+15 and got a reward from it, then the reward from a subsequent M+15 should only give M+14 loot, then M+13 etc.

It doesn't exactly place a hard cap on how many M+ you must do, but the diminishing returns ensure that no player will keep doing it ad infinitum - at least not for the gear. This would even work well with WF/TF.

[Gigantique]

Honestly I found it to be fine in Legion. M+ let you grind out slots you wanted, but tier sets and trinkets came from raids and were pretty powerful. Gave each path their own reason for being important to power up your toon.

Granted I no longer raid organised from time constraints, but I still wouldn't mind tier sets returning. Finishing a 4p set was always a nice feeling.

[icet0r]

Everyone understands that it's a nerf in terms of farming for raid progression skipping. But if it isn't a nerf in terms of completing m+ achievements (which it probably won't be), then it fundamentally doesn't change anything about your m+ experience. You'll still need to do high level raids to be in contention for m+ world ranks (which you need to do now) and you still won't get the best gear available from anything but high lvl raiding (which is currently the case).

The actual effect of this change is to make it LESS POSSIBLE TO GRIND which virtually everyone outside the cutting edge of world progression has been asking for for 2 full expansions. It also lets them calibrate heroic+ raiding to be slightly easier, because people won't be able to enter heroic+ progression with gear better than they'd get from the raid. IMO this has little to no impact on the average player, actually no impact on the world's best players, and allows people who are progressing to stress less about grinding tons of m+ to be acceptably geared.

[jellmoo]

it takes considerably more effort to string a roster together to raid. due to its size, you even have to oversize it, since co-ordinating the schedule of 20 people simply isnt that realistic in the long run, meaning you will have to get even more people, which is even more effort, and you now have issues when everyone can indeed be there.

Even if the content of raiding is great, it would still most likely die if the best loot wasn't coming from raiding.

So yeah, it kinda does have to have the best rewards, but Heroic raiding can suck it, it's literally Normal raids renamed to make people feel better about themselves, heroic raiding is a joke and is about the same difficulty as World quests, and should therefore give similar rewards.

Either remove it or bump up the difficulty, cuz the gap between heroic raiding and Mythic is astronomical right now, it's not even funny, and it wasn't always like that.

By that logic, it's really only the Raid Leaders that deserve the best gear, since they're the ones doing the logistical leg work to make a Raid happen. The thing is, you are mistaking complexity for difficulty here.

Things can be difficult, but in different ways. Rewards can be equivalent, but handed out for different reasons.

And if Raiding would simply die out because it wasn't the one and only path to the best gear in the game, then how fan an activity can it be? If it can't stand on its own without that shiny bauble holding it up, is it actually a solid part of the game?

[Delever]

6-9 ilvls, equivalent of current 10 ilvs. Or 15 ilvls compared to 2 last heroic bosses. It's not our problem you cant see that this is massive nerf.

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By vast majority of players.
https://www.engadget.com/2012-04-20-...man-raids.html

As I expected, cherry picked. Completely ignoring the answer I gave you about statistics and the math you used. It is not equivalent to 9 current ilvls as the difference in stats in shadowlands is smaller than now between ilvl increases but w.e.

[Tyris Flare]

And if Raiding would simply die out because it wasn't the one and only path to the best gear in the game, then how fan an activity can it be? If it can't stand on its own without that shiny bauble holding it up, is it actually a solid part of the game?

Social bonds through guilds are a major reason this game has seen success for 14 years. The main reason people quit *for good* is when their guild/friends quit.

That doesn't mean it has to be structured 100% like it is now or anything, but the organized progression raiding is incredibly important to the brand and business model.

[kaminaris]

As I expected, cherry picked. Completely ignoring the answer I gave you about statistics and the math you used. It is not equivalent to 9 current ilvls as the difference in stats in shadowlands is smaller than now between ilvl increases but w.e.

It is actually even more as everything was downscaled so individual item level differences are bigger in terms of percentage differences. Try again this time using math.

By the way you didn't use any math since you don't know stat weights yet. It is equivalent to current 10 or 15 ilvls (so ~0.7-1.5% difference per slot).

[agentsi]

Why not have multiple paths to gearing, rather than "Raiding has to be the best!"? If you like to Raid, then Raid. If you prefer to do M+, do that. Wjy does one need to automatically have the best rewards?

Because one is much harder than the rest.

Outside of hitting 2400+ in the arena, mythic raiding is harder than doing +15 Mythic plus keys.

That is why the best gear comes from that content. It is the hardest.


this really isn't a complicated thing. And if you aren't a raider, then who cares if you have the best gear or not. you don't need it if you aren't raiding.

[kaminaris]

Because one is much harder than the rest.

Outside of hitting 2400+ in the arena, mythic raiding is harder than doing +15 Mythic plus keys.

That is why the best gear comes from that content. It is the hardest.


this really isn't a complicated thing. And if you aren't a raider, then who cares if you have the best gear or not. you don't need it if you aren't raiding.

then why absolute best gear doesn't come from 30s? Its absolutely harder than mythic raids.
If you arent doing 30s you dont need best gear so best one should come from that.

[Delever]

It is actually even more as everything was downscaled so individual item level differences are bigger in terms of percentage differences. Try again this time using math.

By the way you didn't use any math since you don't know stat weights yet. It is equivalent to current 10 or 15 ilvls (so ~0.7-1.5% difference per slot).

I pointed out that the math you used is flawed because you are considering raiders as a whole rather than dividing them by mythic raiders (an outlier due to being 1% of the population) and heroic raiders (the majority of raiders).

[agentsi]

then why absolute best gear doesn't come from 30s? Its absolutely harder than mythic raids.
If you arent doing 30s you dont need best gear so best one should come from that.

Considering no one was doing 30s, your point is irrelevant.

Don't be mad because you aren't going to be handed gear for doing nothing anymore.

But to play along, I agree that if folks WERE capable of doing 30-39 level keys, 1 item should drop at the end, and it should be 100% random and Mythic raid quality.

But I still think mythic raiding is harder. Find 5 good players to push high keys, is MUCH easier than finding 20 folks to clear Mythic before ilvl takes over. IE after 3-4 months on a current tier.

[jellmoo]

Social bonds through guilds are a major reason this game has seen success for 14 years. The main reason people quit *for good* is when their guild/friends quit.

That doesn't mean it has to be structured 100% like it is now or anything, but the organized progression raiding is incredibly important to the brand and business model.

I agree with this 100%. This is why I think that raiding would more than survive if there were other gearing methods.

[Elestia]

You can still get gear via M+
3 item levels isn't a lot with mythic+15 and heroic raiding
You still get mythic raid ilvl pieces in your chest from mythic+
You can still get pvp gear by doing pvp.


Why have a difference at all? Time investment. Four to six M+ dungeons with a guaranteed weekly piece (now of your choice!) seems like a pretty great trade-off in terms of time versus 4-6 hours of raiding for often times zero loot and no mythic ilvl pieces. (Remember too Shadowlands dungeons are shorter than BfA.)

Raiding isn't better at all, mythic raiding is hard af to do, heroic is usually clearable in two weeks. There's very little guarantee you'll get the pieces you need from it. Gearing still will be a struggle but one that still favors M+ over time and maybe doing a few early tier mythic bosses.

[jellmoo]

Because one is much harder than the rest.

Outside of hitting 2400+ in the arena, mythic raiding is harder than doing +15 Mythic plus keys.

That is why the best gear comes from that content. It is the hardest.


this really isn't a complicated thing. And if you aren't a raider, then who cares if you have the best gear or not. you don't need it if you aren't raiding.

Again, that's not the argument. It has nothing to do with Raiding vs M+ as it exists now. It isn't about just adding top gear to the current M+ loot.

The idea is to adjust M+ in both difficulty and rewards mechanics, to allow it to be an alternative path for top end gear.

[Elestia]

I agree with this 100%. This is why I think that raiding would more than survive if there were other gearing methods.

Raiding would thrive and change with other gearing methods being available just as it has with M+ or how it did in BC/WotLK with PvP gear.

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Again, that's not the argument. It has nothing to do with Raiding vs M+ as it exists now. It isn't about just adding top gear to the current M+ loot.

The idea is to adjust M+ in both difficulty and rewards mechanics, to allow it to be an alternative path for top end gear.

It already does and if anything isn't nearly as difficult as mythic raiding. People would shit the bed if it were.

The fact that M+ and Mythic raiding doesn't have exact parity in both difficulty and reward is actually good. Just as the majority can't handle mythic raids, the majority would fail mythic plus. The fact that M+ allows you a mythic raid level piece per week is the only thing that actually makes up ground in terms of gearing for mythic raid mechanics to a level playable for most people. It's literally a catch up system.