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  1. #441
    Honestly I found it to be fine in Legion. M+ let you grind out slots you wanted, but tier sets and trinkets came from raids and were pretty powerful. Gave each path their own reason for being important to power up your toon.

    Granted I no longer raid organised from time constraints, but I still wouldn't mind tier sets returning. Finishing a 4p set was always a nice feeling.

  2. #442
    Everyone understands that it's a nerf in terms of farming for raid progression skipping. But if it isn't a nerf in terms of completing m+ achievements (which it probably won't be), then it fundamentally doesn't change anything about your m+ experience. You'll still need to do high level raids to be in contention for m+ world ranks (which you need to do now) and you still won't get the best gear available from anything but high lvl raiding (which is currently the case).

    The actual effect of this change is to make it LESS POSSIBLE TO GRIND which virtually everyone outside the cutting edge of world progression has been asking for for 2 full expansions. It also lets them calibrate heroic+ raiding to be slightly easier, because people won't be able to enter heroic+ progression with gear better than they'd get from the raid. IMO this has little to no impact on the average player, actually no impact on the world's best players, and allows people who are progressing to stress less about grinding tons of m+ to be acceptably geared.

  3. #443
    Quote Originally Posted by Tumile View Post
    it takes considerably more effort to string a roster together to raid. due to its size, you even have to oversize it, since co-ordinating the schedule of 20 people simply isnt that realistic in the long run, meaning you will have to get even more people, which is even more effort, and you now have issues when everyone can indeed be there.

    Even if the content of raiding is great, it would still most likely die if the best loot wasn't coming from raiding.

    So yeah, it kinda does have to have the best rewards, but Heroic raiding can suck it, it's literally Normal raids renamed to make people feel better about themselves, heroic raiding is a joke and is about the same difficulty as World quests, and should therefore give similar rewards.

    Either remove it or bump up the difficulty, cuz the gap between heroic raiding and Mythic is astronomical right now, it's not even funny, and it wasn't always like that.
    By that logic, it's really only the Raid Leaders that deserve the best gear, since they're the ones doing the logistical leg work to make a Raid happen. The thing is, you are mistaking complexity for difficulty here.

    Things can be difficult, but in different ways. Rewards can be equivalent, but handed out for different reasons.

    And if Raiding would simply die out because it wasn't the one and only path to the best gear in the game, then how fan an activity can it be? If it can't stand on its own without that shiny bauble holding it up, is it actually a solid part of the game?

  4. #444
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    6-9 ilvls, equivalent of current 10 ilvs. Or 15 ilvls compared to 2 last heroic bosses. It's not our problem you cant see that this is massive nerf.

    - - - Updated - - -



    By vast majority of players.
    https://www.engadget.com/2012-04-20-...man-raids.html
    As I expected, cherry picked. Completely ignoring the answer I gave you about statistics and the math you used. It is not equivalent to 9 current ilvls as the difference in stats in shadowlands is smaller than now between ilvl increases but w.e.

  5. #445
    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    And if Raiding would simply die out because it wasn't the one and only path to the best gear in the game, then how fan an activity can it be? If it can't stand on its own without that shiny bauble holding it up, is it actually a solid part of the game?
    Social bonds through guilds are a major reason this game has seen success for 14 years. The main reason people quit *for good* is when their guild/friends quit.

    That doesn't mean it has to be structured 100% like it is now or anything, but the organized progression raiding is incredibly important to the brand and business model.

  6. #446
    Quote Originally Posted by Delever View Post
    As I expected, cherry picked. Completely ignoring the answer I gave you about statistics and the math you used. It is not equivalent to 9 current ilvls as the difference in stats in shadowlands is smaller than now between ilvl increases but w.e.
    It is actually even more as everything was downscaled so individual item level differences are bigger in terms of percentage differences. Try again this time using math.

    By the way you didn't use any math since you don't know stat weights yet. It is equivalent to current 10 or 15 ilvls (so ~0.7-1.5% difference per slot).

  7. #447
    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    Why not have multiple paths to gearing, rather than "Raiding has to be the best!"? If you like to Raid, then Raid. If you prefer to do M+, do that. Wjy does one need to automatically have the best rewards?
    Because one is much harder than the rest.

    Outside of hitting 2400+ in the arena, mythic raiding is harder than doing +15 Mythic plus keys.

    That is why the best gear comes from that content. It is the hardest.


    this really isn't a complicated thing. And if you aren't a raider, then who cares if you have the best gear or not. you don't need it if you aren't raiding.

  8. #448
    Quote Originally Posted by agentsi View Post
    Because one is much harder than the rest.

    Outside of hitting 2400+ in the arena, mythic raiding is harder than doing +15 Mythic plus keys.

    That is why the best gear comes from that content. It is the hardest.


    this really isn't a complicated thing. And if you aren't a raider, then who cares if you have the best gear or not. you don't need it if you aren't raiding.
    then why absolute best gear doesn't come from 30s? Its absolutely harder than mythic raids.
    If you arent doing 30s you dont need best gear so best one should come from that.

  9. #449
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    It is actually even more as everything was downscaled so individual item level differences are bigger in terms of percentage differences. Try again this time using math.

    By the way you didn't use any math since you don't know stat weights yet. It is equivalent to current 10 or 15 ilvls (so ~0.7-1.5% difference per slot).
    I pointed out that the math you used is flawed because you are considering raiders as a whole rather than dividing them by mythic raiders (an outlier due to being 1% of the population) and heroic raiders (the majority of raiders).

  10. #450
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    then why absolute best gear doesn't come from 30s? Its absolutely harder than mythic raids.
    If you arent doing 30s you dont need best gear so best one should come from that.
    Considering no one was doing 30s, your point is irrelevant.

    Don't be mad because you aren't going to be handed gear for doing nothing anymore.

    But to play along, I agree that if folks WERE capable of doing 30-39 level keys, 1 item should drop at the end, and it should be 100% random and Mythic raid quality.

    But I still think mythic raiding is harder. Find 5 good players to push high keys, is MUCH easier than finding 20 folks to clear Mythic before ilvl takes over. IE after 3-4 months on a current tier.

  11. #451
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyris Flare View Post
    Social bonds through guilds are a major reason this game has seen success for 14 years. The main reason people quit *for good* is when their guild/friends quit.

    That doesn't mean it has to be structured 100% like it is now or anything, but the organized progression raiding is incredibly important to the brand and business model.
    I agree with this 100%. This is why I think that raiding would more than survive if there were other gearing methods.

  12. #452
    You can still get gear via M+
    3 item levels isn't a lot with mythic+15 and heroic raiding
    You still get mythic raid ilvl pieces in your chest from mythic+
    You can still get pvp gear by doing pvp.


    Why have a difference at all? Time investment. Four to six M+ dungeons with a guaranteed weekly piece (now of your choice!) seems like a pretty great trade-off in terms of time versus 4-6 hours of raiding for often times zero loot and no mythic ilvl pieces. (Remember too Shadowlands dungeons are shorter than BfA.)

    Raiding isn't better at all, mythic raiding is hard af to do, heroic is usually clearable in two weeks. There's very little guarantee you'll get the pieces you need from it. Gearing still will be a struggle but one that still favors M+ over time and maybe doing a few early tier mythic bosses.
    Last edited by Elestia; 2020-09-18 at 03:29 PM.

  13. #453
    Quote Originally Posted by agentsi View Post
    Because one is much harder than the rest.

    Outside of hitting 2400+ in the arena, mythic raiding is harder than doing +15 Mythic plus keys.

    That is why the best gear comes from that content. It is the hardest.


    this really isn't a complicated thing. And if you aren't a raider, then who cares if you have the best gear or not. you don't need it if you aren't raiding.
    Again, that's not the argument. It has nothing to do with Raiding vs M+ as it exists now. It isn't about just adding top gear to the current M+ loot.

    The idea is to adjust M+ in both difficulty and rewards mechanics, to allow it to be an alternative path for top end gear.

  14. #454
    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    I agree with this 100%. This is why I think that raiding would more than survive if there were other gearing methods.
    Raiding would thrive and change with other gearing methods being available just as it has with M+ or how it did in BC/WotLK with PvP gear.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    Again, that's not the argument. It has nothing to do with Raiding vs M+ as it exists now. It isn't about just adding top gear to the current M+ loot.

    The idea is to adjust M+ in both difficulty and rewards mechanics, to allow it to be an alternative path for top end gear.
    It already does and if anything isn't nearly as difficult as mythic raiding. People would shit the bed if it were.

    The fact that M+ and Mythic raiding doesn't have exact parity in both difficulty and reward is actually good. Just as the majority can't handle mythic raids, the majority would fail mythic plus. The fact that M+ allows you a mythic raid level piece per week is the only thing that actually makes up ground in terms of gearing for mythic raid mechanics to a level playable for most people. It's literally a catch up system.
    Last edited by Elestia; 2020-09-18 at 03:38 PM.

  15. #455
    Quote Originally Posted by Delever View Post
    I pointed out that the math you used is flawed because you are considering raiders as a whole rather than dividing them by mythic raiders (an outlier due to being 1% of the population) and heroic raiders (the majority of raiders).
    And that is not relevant anyways.

  16. #456
    Quote Originally Posted by Elestia View Post
    It already does and if anything isn't nearly as difficult as mythic raiding. People would shit the bed if it were.
    The thing is, people are looking at Mythic Raiding as being massively more difficult than M+, which isn't exactly true. There is additional logistical complexity, absolutely, but that doesn't always trickle down. Random DPS #7 in a Raid handles a rotation and mechanics, but that's about it.

    M+ could be tuned to have increased difficulty that would actually require more effort/ability. It would simply be a different dort of difficult.

  17. #457
    Quote Originally Posted by agentsi View Post
    Considering no one was doing 30s, your point is irrelevant.

    Don't be mad because you aren't going to be handed gear for doing nothing anymore.

    But to play along, I agree that if folks WERE capable of doing 30-39 level keys, 1 item should drop at the end, and it should be 100% random and Mythic raid quality.

    But I still think mythic raiding is harder. Find 5 good players to push high keys, is MUCH easier than finding 20 folks to clear Mythic before ilvl takes over. IE after 3-4 months on a current tier.
    No one was doing because it was too hard. Mythic raider plebs shouldn't have access to the same gear as people that does 30s as they are clearly worse players, subhumans. And they woundn't need it ayways since mythic raids are easier.

    Go ahead find 4 good players and do 30 in time as there are like 30 keys so far done on +30 worldwide. You should get best gear since only 0.0001% of playerbase could have done it.

  18. #458
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    yeah, now that they are vastly overgeared from mythic raid and have more corruption than romanian government...
    for those people even mythic raid is joke now, but at the begining of tier (and even more so at the begining of expansion) M+15 is not a "joke"...
    everyone who ever cleared one without being carried or overgeared knows that...
    As a cutting edge mythic raider, doing 15's the first week is not only possible but we literally did them. You can LITERALLY FAIL and you still get rewarded. Timing a 15 might be harder, DOING one is a joke, and always will be. We aren't talking about 5's vs normal, we are talking mythic raid vs mythic 15's. The mythic 15 being done by the same skill level of people, the 15 is easier, it always will be.

  19. #459
    Quote Originally Posted by Toybox View Post
    Speak for yourself. Raiding with the lads is a good time for me, otherwise I simply wouldn't do it. Hell, it's the only reason I actually came back to BfA at all after being unsubbed for 70% of the expansion
    I would never call the people i guilded with back in WoD/Legion (guild died after killing M Gul'dan) "lads" Some of them were pretty horrible to me, But they were a means to an end to get gear, so i stuck around and put up with it. Since raiding is the way to get gear. I have not raided at all in retail since then tho. Getting my gear from M+ nowdays.

  20. #460
    Quote Originally Posted by SkagenRora View Post
    I would never call the people i guilded with back in WoD/Legion (guild died after killing M Gul'dan) "lads" They were pretty horrible to me, But they were a means to an end to get gear, so i stuck around and put up with it. Since raiding is the way to get gear. I have not raided at all in retail since then tho. Getting my gear from M+ nowdays.
    I'm sorry you had a bad experience (as believe me, I've had some myself), but there's plenty of good guild experiences to be found out there. I don't know why anyone would do something they don't enjoy just to get gear, though... The point of raiding is to enjoy it, no? The gear just allows you to do more of it/do it at a faster pace. Raiding just for gear alone seems insane to me.

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