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  1. #481
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    im sorry, are people around here hetting hardon from misinterpreting and twisting words of others?!

    i never said +15 is on equal level of dificulty as mythic raid, actualy quite often in my other comments i said its roughly on hc level of dificulty...
    i simply said ANY content is easy if you overgear it...

    as for doing M+15 first week on season one, i kind of doubt that, as you would have to time +14 to even get key, and world first timed +15 was done on 16.9. so 11 days after begining of season1 and that was BARELY in time, so i kind of doubt you were timing +14 previous week...
    but if you did, good for you, still not something a vast majority of people doing keys would consider "joke"
    people carried 20 keys from the azshara season to get 15s in nyalotha season

  2. #482
    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    Why not have multiple paths to gearing, rather than "Raiding has to be the best!"? If you like to Raid, then Raid. If you prefer to do M+, do that. Wjy does one need to automatically have the best rewards?
    Those paths still exist though? The Dungeons still drop loot and still feed into the weekly vault for Mythic raid level loot. Blizzard aren’t removing those paths, merely balancing them.

    Honestly, it appears that (some) M+ Players are salty, not because one content type is better than another, but because their content is no longer the top dog for fast gearing.

    However, if you only do M+ in SL, you’ll still be better geared than someone who only raids normal/heroic, it’ll just take you longer then 2 weeks to do so.
    If you’re a player who dabbles in both, you’ll have more vault options and likely be optimised faster than those who don’t.
    If you’re a Mythic (CE) raider or High Key pusher in BFA, you’re likely used to doing both already so nothing changes.

  3. #483
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    Wow isn't a skill game. It rewards time spent and deep pockets.

    In BfA you are willing to spend hours and hours researching the best skills, traits, borrowed powers to select, if you are willing to run maybe King's Rest 20x until your weapon drops, then maybe another 35x runs in mechagon until your rings drop, then another 20x runs in Shrine of the Storm until your trinket drops, if you are a big enough whale to server change a bunch of times to shop for those precious BoEs, if you are willing to spend countless hours in the first couple weeks raiding, sure you can be competing for world firsts.

    That's not skill though. Its just an insane grind.

    Or in Legion people would run Maw of Souls 100x for AP to get ahead. That's gross.
    See... it doesn't though.

    The people with the best gear in the game... the gladiators, the CE players usually have very little time played compared to someone who only does for lfr for example. Now to be fair this has changed as of late with how grindy bfa was but this wasn't the case at all pre legion.

    I am talking about groups larger then the top ten guilds in the world. I find it muddles the water when you take roughly 200 of the most dedicated players out of millions. I am including people who clear CE on the current tier.

    I would say the degenerate systems in place to ensure that players enter content they have no interest in is a major issue of wow and luckily looks to be alleviated quite a bit in sl.

  4. #484
    Quote Originally Posted by Whiskeyjac View Post
    See... it doesn't though.

    The people with the best gear in the game... the gladiators, the CE players usually have very little time played compared to someone who only does for lfr for example. Now to be fair this has changed as of late with how grindy bfa was but this wasn't the case at all pre legion.

    I am talking about groups larger then the top ten guilds in the world. I find it muddles the water when you take roughly 200 of the most dedicated players out of millions. I am including people who clear CE on the current tier.

    I would say the degenerate systems in place to ensure that players enter content they have no interest in is a major issue of wow and luckily looks to be alleviated quite a bit in sl.
    the difference is that their time is front-loaded so it seems like a lot more.

    Do you wanna do 50 hours in 5 sittings or 100 hours in 15 sittings?

  5. #485
    Quote Originally Posted by Dakara View Post
    Those paths still exist though? The Dungeons still drop loot and still feed into the weekly vault for Mythic raid level loot. Blizzard aren’t removing those paths, merely balancing them.

    Honestly, it appears that (some) M+ Players are salty, not because one content type is better than another, but because their content is no longer the top dog for fast gearing.

    However, if you only do M+ in SL, you’ll still be better geared than someone who only raids normal/heroic, it’ll just take you longer then 2 weeks to do so.
    If you’re a player who dabbles in both, you’ll have more vault options and likely be optimised faster than those who don’t.
    If you’re a Mythic (CE) raider or High Key pusher in BFA, you’re likely used to doing both already so nothing changes.
    The difference now is that M+ is just a boring grind with no rewards at the end. Thats a pretty huge change and a bad one at that.

  6. #486
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    The difference now is that M+ is just a boring grind with no rewards at the end. Thats a pretty huge change and a bad one at that.
    No rewards for who? Ilvl capped players just pushing keys? Because that exists today.
    Is the 465 end of Dungeon loot rewarding now? When you can get 470 loot from solo content and buy a socket + corruption for it?
    Be it Raid or dungeons, eventually the loot becomes vendor/de trash.

    In BFA, you’d run M+ until your ilvl exceeded the end dungeon reward cap and relied on the weekly chest for 475 upgrades. In SL, you’ll still run M+ until you reach the end reward ilvl cap and again rely on your weekly for upgrades, only you’ll have multiple items to choose from reducing the RNG. The sky is not falling.

    And for what it’s worth, IMHO, grinding the same dungeons for 2 years to get the same loot at the new seasonal ilvl has always been a boring grind and always will be.

    If M+ was all about the gear we wouldn’t see anyone bothering with Keys above +15. Some people (not me) obviously enjoy the challenge of this content beyond simply farming for gear. To them, M+ is not just a boring grind with no reward.
    Last edited by Dakara; 2020-09-19 at 07:32 AM.

  7. #487
    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    "As I often say. Look at how shit the average player is, then realise half of the players are worse."

    Holy shit imagine having an ego this big, I genuinely quivered in cringe reading this
    That's roughly how averages work.

  8. #488
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    people carried 20 keys from the azshara season to get 15s in nyalotha season
    in cas you have trouble reading i said first week on season one, did people carry keys from legion?
    obviously in later patches its easier, as people are decked in mythic gear and can carry keys from previous season, but we are heading for new expansion, not patch...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    That's roughly how averages work.
    well, technicaly, no, thats how median work - half of "subjects" is under it half above, average does not necesarry divide data set into two halfs with equal amount of subjects in each

  9. #489
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post

    well, technicaly, no, thats how median work - half of "subjects" is under it half above, average does not necesarry divide data set into two halfs with equal amount of subjects in each
    Which is why I used roughly... considering the large dataset for wow playerbase, the difference most likely won't be that big although technically true. Should've clarified it would be for this specific case though.

  10. #490
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    in cas you have trouble reading i said first week on season one, did people carry keys from legion?
    obviously in later patches its easier, as people are decked in mythic gear and can carry keys from previous season, but we are heading for new expansion, not patch...

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    well, technicaly, no, thats how median work - half of "subjects" is under it half above, average does not necesarry divide data set into two halfs with equal amount of subjects in each
    It's not crazy to assume that "skill" is a random variable with a symmetric distribution. In that case the median coincides with the average.

  11. #491
    "Not everyone likes to raid"

    Ok then don't play a game about raiding. Go rp with loli furries in ff.

  12. #492
    Quote Originally Posted by Freds1234 View Post
    It's not crazy to assume that "skill" is a random variable with a symmetric distribution. In that case the median coincides with the average.
    eh... i would disagree, i think there is far less skilled players than bad players, which would drag average down... anyhow, doesnt matter as without data best we can do is guess, or "assume" if it sounds better to you

  13. #493
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    the difference is that their time is front-loaded so it seems like a lot more.

    Do you wanna do 50 hours in 5 sittings or 100 hours in 15 sittings?
    It really isn't though... I get from the outside looking in it would appear that way but the majority of CE guilds pre wod had players logging in at most 12 hours a week with maybe a few on off hours to get materials to raid. This myth of higher end players playing massive amounts of time outside of people who do it for a living...is well just that a myth.

  14. #494
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    in cas you have trouble reading i said first week on season one, did people carry keys from legion?
    obviously in later patches its easier, as people are decked in mythic gear and can carry keys from previous season, but we are heading for new expansion, not patch...

    - - - Updated - - -



    well, technicaly, no, thats how median work - half of "subjects" is under it half above, average does not necesarry divide data set into two halfs with equal amount of subjects in each
    we did 10's and 11s. you just had to actually pay attention in the 9 and then you did the ol key delete trick in the 10/11 and boom, keys for your entire guild

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whiskeyjac View Post
    It really isn't though... I get from the outside looking in it would appear that way but the majority of CE guilds pre wod had players logging in at most 12 hours a week with maybe a few on off hours to get materials to raid. This myth of higher end players playing massive amounts of time outside of people who do it for a living...is well just that a myth.
    I mean my guild and I farmed neck every patch but okay, it's not really a myth.
    most top 200~ guilds usually have neck "requests" before progression started.
    Things like "being able to get the secondary damage trait on heroic azerite" or "open the new minor essence" kinda deals.
    Last edited by Kehego; 2020-09-19 at 07:18 PM.

  15. #495
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    I mean my guild and I farmed neck every patch but okay, it's not really a myth.
    most top 200~ guilds usually have neck "requests" before progression started.
    Things like "being able to get the secondary damage trait on heroic azerite" or "open the new minor essence" kinda deals.
    I think you missed the 'pre-wod' part there.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  16. #496
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    The guilds clearing Heroic in 1-2 weeks are not "Heroic" guilds, they are either full fledged Mythic guilds or 'Heroic' guilds that don't have 20 people to do Mythic with. The difficulty isn't balanced around them.

    As I often say. Look at how shit the average player is, then realise half of the players are worse.
    AOTC has a completion rate of about 30-40% per boss maximum, and yet we've people rambling on about how it's so easy and casual and such. Lots of people on forums or in Mythic guilds tend to live in a bubble that way I find.

    The same guilds that blast through Heroic day 1 also blast through M+15 day one anyway.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

  17. #497
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post

    I mean my guild and I farmed neck every patch but okay, it's not really a myth.
    most top 200~ guilds usually have neck "requests" before progression started.
    Things like "being able to get the secondary damage trait on heroic azerite" or "open the new minor essence" kinda deals.
    As the other poster mentioned I was referring to a specific time period of the game. I know first hand that systems like artifact power have greatly increased the time needed to play effectively at higher levels of the game. Especially with how front loaded most of those systems are.

    I would like to see challenging content run alongside mythic raiding for the best rewards but the issue with 5 mans is that in order for them to be on the same level of difficulty they need to be tuned to ideal comps. Tuning that tight would make it extremely difficult if not impossible for some classes to realistically compete them without it being a extremely advantageous week or out gearing them by a fair margin.

  18. #498
    It's not unusual, in any game, for the hardest difficulty level to provide the biggest reward.

    MMOs are a social game, and a significant part of the difficulty that comes with raiding extends beyond the mechanics and to the social aspect of a team that large achieving a common goal.

    It's perfectly justifiable to set the loot as incrementally better, especially given how small the delta is.
    GM of Temerity - US Top 50 raiding on a strict 3 nights since Ulduar. Check us out!
    http://www.temerityofhyjal.com/

  19. #499
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    I think you missed the 'pre-wod' part there.
    because azerite/hoa existed pre wod

    you stupid on purpose or by accident?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whiskeyjac View Post
    As the other poster mentioned I was referring to a specific time period of the game. I know first hand that systems like artifact power have greatly increased the time needed to play effectively at higher levels of the game. Especially with how front loaded most of those systems are.

    I would like to see challenging content run alongside mythic raiding for the best rewards but the issue with 5 mans is that in order for them to be on the same level of difficulty they need to be tuned to ideal comps. Tuning that tight would make it extremely difficult if not impossible for some classes to realistically compete them without it being a extremely advantageous week or out gearing them by a fair margin.
    again, like you said, its frontloaded.
    and no lol, 5 man content will never be comparable difficulty wise, the only thing you can really do is just add damage because at the end of it, it'll *have* to be class ambiguous/agnostic enough that a group of any combination of 12 classes can do it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgrym View Post
    It's not unusual, in any game, for the hardest difficulty level to provide the biggest reward.

    MMOs are a social game, and a significant part of the difficulty that comes with raiding extends beyond the mechanics and to the social aspect of a team that large achieving a common goal.

    It's perfectly justifiable to set the loot as incrementally better, especially given how small the delta is.
    winner winner chicken dinner

  20. #500
    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgrym View Post
    It's not unusual, in any game, for the hardest difficulty level to provide the biggest reward.

    MMOs are a social game, and a significant part of the difficulty that comes with raiding extends beyond the mechanics and to the social aspect of a team that large achieving a common goal.

    It's perfectly justifiable to set the loot as incrementally better, especially given how small the delta is.
    Except difficulty ≠ complexity. They aren't the same thing. Yes, it is complex to organize a raid and it is certainly a challenge. But it is not a component of in game difficulty.

    It's possible to create things that are difficult in different ways have equivalent rewards. I'm not saying the system as it exists now, but a hypothetical system where mythic raiding and M+ handle the difficulty differently, but offer similar rewards. Where one system requires that organization, but also mechanics study and trial and error, where another is based on split second decision making and fighting a timer.

    The average DPS in a raid just isn't being challenged the way a Raid Leader is, so having the complexity of a raid setting be the deciding factor that the rewards should be the highest falls a little flat.

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