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  1. #461
    Quote Originally Posted by Demolished View Post
    As a cutting edge mythic raider, doing 15's the first week is not only possible but we literally did them. You can LITERALLY FAIL and you still get rewarded. Timing a 15 might be harder, DOING one is a joke, and always will be. We aren't talking about 5's vs normal, we are talking mythic raid vs mythic 15's. The mythic 15 being done by the same skill level of people, the 15 is easier, it always will be.
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  2. #462
    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    Why not have multiple paths to gearing, rather than "Raiding has to be the best!"? If you like to Raid, then Raid. If you prefer to do M+, do that. Wjy does one need to automatically have the best rewards?
    Is there lfr for m+?

  3. #463
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    Quote Originally Posted by stomination View Post
    Is there lfr for m+?
    Only way there should be higher ilvls with Mythic+ is if they were in the Mythic+22/25 Range. Higher ilvl for M15 would be like offering Heroic level gear for Normal/LFR raid. They want people to do higher content, they are going to have to reward the people who do it.
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  4. #464
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    im sorry, are people around here hetting hardon from misinterpreting and twisting words of others?!

    i never said +15 is on equal level of dificulty as mythic raid, actualy quite often in my other comments i said its roughly on hc level of dificulty...
    i simply said ANY content is easy if you overgear it...

    as for doing M+15 first week on season one, i kind of doubt that, as you would have to time +14 to even get key, and world first timed +15 was done on 16.9. so 11 days after begining of season1 and that was BARELY in time, so i kind of doubt you were timing +14 previous week...
    but if you did, good for you, still not something a vast majority of people doing keys would consider "joke"
    You do realize max loot was from 10's in season 1, and season 1 also had a different scalar that was changed in later seasons. There was a reason that 22 was the max done in season 1. Doing 15's was still easy week 1.

  5. #465
    Quote Originally Posted by agentsi View Post
    I understand your point, sorry I didn't read it correctly at first, but to be fair if they do this. Then most of the player base who enjoys M+, won't be able to do it.

    If an M+10 was as hard as a Mythic raid boss, in terms of mechanics/dps/tanking/healing etc, only the folks with gear/skill would be able to push it. All the folks trying to gear up via only M+ would hit walls, and often. Not to mention the toxicity in the M+ environment would only get worse.

    But if we are talking about utopian type of scenarios, then yes, I 100% agree M+ should scale in terms of gear and progression.

    But I honestly think Blizzard tries to make dungeons easy, so most of the player base can participate in them. What I mean by that is, imagine the raiders, and M+ players that parse under 74%. They make up over 95% of the parses on warcraft logs, and tons of the other folks who aren't on warcraft logs are even worse dps wise. You would be eliminating the chance for those types of folks to run M+ beyond 2-5s while being at or below the gear level. They'd have to over gear their dungeon, and even then it would be rough for them. We have folks still trying to clear Mythic N'Zoth, even though folks are 485 and full corruption, and they can't. If we brought that level of depth and challenge to m+, it would become another situation where only hardcore players do it. Just like Mythic raiding is now, and people would complain that they want mythic level gear from heroic dungeons so they can start doing M+.
    Oh, I agree that the concept is fairly utopian in a way, and is something Blizzard is unlikely to do, or if they were to try, unlikely to do successfully.

    It's more of a theoretical thought, and one that stems from not believing that the best gear must come from Raiding and Raiding alone. I firmly believe that multiplem paths to the top notch gear are more than possible, and that encouraging people to try and play all aspects of the game is ultimately in Blizzard's best interest.

    I personally don't have a dog in the fight. I don't care about top end gear. I won't have it and that's fine. I just look at it from a game design standpoint.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stomination View Post
    Is there lfr for m+?
    I'm not sure I understand? It's not like somebody is getting top end gear from LFR.

  6. #466
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    im sorry, are people around here hetting hardon from misinterpreting and twisting words of others?!

    i never said +15 is on equal level of dificulty as mythic raid, actualy quite often in my other comments i said its roughly on hc level of dificulty...
    i simply said ANY content is easy if you overgear it...

    as for doing M+15 first week on season one, i kind of doubt that, as you would have to time +14 to even get key, and world first timed +15 was done on 16.9. so 11 days after begining of season1 and that was BARELY in time, so i kind of doubt you were timing +14 previous week...
    but if you did, good for you, still not something a vast majority of people doing keys would consider "joke"
    people carried 20 keys from the azshara season to get 15s in nyalotha season

  7. #467
    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    Why not have multiple paths to gearing, rather than "Raiding has to be the best!"? If you like to Raid, then Raid. If you prefer to do M+, do that. Wjy does one need to automatically have the best rewards?
    Those paths still exist though? The Dungeons still drop loot and still feed into the weekly vault for Mythic raid level loot. Blizzard aren’t removing those paths, merely balancing them.

    Honestly, it appears that (some) M+ Players are salty, not because one content type is better than another, but because their content is no longer the top dog for fast gearing.

    However, if you only do M+ in SL, you’ll still be better geared than someone who only raids normal/heroic, it’ll just take you longer then 2 weeks to do so.
    If you’re a player who dabbles in both, you’ll have more vault options and likely be optimised faster than those who don’t.
    If you’re a Mythic (CE) raider or High Key pusher in BFA, you’re likely used to doing both already so nothing changes.

  8. #468
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    Wow isn't a skill game. It rewards time spent and deep pockets.

    In BfA you are willing to spend hours and hours researching the best skills, traits, borrowed powers to select, if you are willing to run maybe King's Rest 20x until your weapon drops, then maybe another 35x runs in mechagon until your rings drop, then another 20x runs in Shrine of the Storm until your trinket drops, if you are a big enough whale to server change a bunch of times to shop for those precious BoEs, if you are willing to spend countless hours in the first couple weeks raiding, sure you can be competing for world firsts.

    That's not skill though. Its just an insane grind.

    Or in Legion people would run Maw of Souls 100x for AP to get ahead. That's gross.
    See... it doesn't though.

    The people with the best gear in the game... the gladiators, the CE players usually have very little time played compared to someone who only does for lfr for example. Now to be fair this has changed as of late with how grindy bfa was but this wasn't the case at all pre legion.

    I am talking about groups larger then the top ten guilds in the world. I find it muddles the water when you take roughly 200 of the most dedicated players out of millions. I am including people who clear CE on the current tier.

    I would say the degenerate systems in place to ensure that players enter content they have no interest in is a major issue of wow and luckily looks to be alleviated quite a bit in sl.

  9. #469
    Quote Originally Posted by Whiskeyjac View Post
    See... it doesn't though.

    The people with the best gear in the game... the gladiators, the CE players usually have very little time played compared to someone who only does for lfr for example. Now to be fair this has changed as of late with how grindy bfa was but this wasn't the case at all pre legion.

    I am talking about groups larger then the top ten guilds in the world. I find it muddles the water when you take roughly 200 of the most dedicated players out of millions. I am including people who clear CE on the current tier.

    I would say the degenerate systems in place to ensure that players enter content they have no interest in is a major issue of wow and luckily looks to be alleviated quite a bit in sl.
    the difference is that their time is front-loaded so it seems like a lot more.

    Do you wanna do 50 hours in 5 sittings or 100 hours in 15 sittings?

  10. #470
    Quote Originally Posted by Dakara View Post
    Those paths still exist though? The Dungeons still drop loot and still feed into the weekly vault for Mythic raid level loot. Blizzard aren’t removing those paths, merely balancing them.

    Honestly, it appears that (some) M+ Players are salty, not because one content type is better than another, but because their content is no longer the top dog for fast gearing.

    However, if you only do M+ in SL, you’ll still be better geared than someone who only raids normal/heroic, it’ll just take you longer then 2 weeks to do so.
    If you’re a player who dabbles in both, you’ll have more vault options and likely be optimised faster than those who don’t.
    If you’re a Mythic (CE) raider or High Key pusher in BFA, you’re likely used to doing both already so nothing changes.
    The difference now is that M+ is just a boring grind with no rewards at the end. Thats a pretty huge change and a bad one at that.

  11. #471
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    The difference now is that M+ is just a boring grind with no rewards at the end. Thats a pretty huge change and a bad one at that.
    No rewards for who? Ilvl capped players just pushing keys? Because that exists today.
    Is the 465 end of Dungeon loot rewarding now? When you can get 470 loot from solo content and buy a socket + corruption for it?
    Be it Raid or dungeons, eventually the loot becomes vendor/de trash.

    In BFA, you’d run M+ until your ilvl exceeded the end dungeon reward cap and relied on the weekly chest for 475 upgrades. In SL, you’ll still run M+ until you reach the end reward ilvl cap and again rely on your weekly for upgrades, only you’ll have multiple items to choose from reducing the RNG. The sky is not falling.

    And for what it’s worth, IMHO, grinding the same dungeons for 2 years to get the same loot at the new seasonal ilvl has always been a boring grind and always will be.

    If M+ was all about the gear we wouldn’t see anyone bothering with Keys above +15. Some people (not me) obviously enjoy the challenge of this content beyond simply farming for gear. To them, M+ is not just a boring grind with no reward.
    Last edited by Dakara; 2020-09-19 at 07:32 AM.

  12. #472
    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    "As I often say. Look at how shit the average player is, then realise half of the players are worse."

    Holy shit imagine having an ego this big, I genuinely quivered in cringe reading this
    That's roughly how averages work.
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  13. #473
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    people carried 20 keys from the azshara season to get 15s in nyalotha season
    in cas you have trouble reading i said first week on season one, did people carry keys from legion?
    obviously in later patches its easier, as people are decked in mythic gear and can carry keys from previous season, but we are heading for new expansion, not patch...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    That's roughly how averages work.
    well, technicaly, no, thats how median work - half of "subjects" is under it half above, average does not necesarry divide data set into two halfs with equal amount of subjects in each

  14. #474
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post

    well, technicaly, no, thats how median work - half of "subjects" is under it half above, average does not necesarry divide data set into two halfs with equal amount of subjects in each
    Which is why I used roughly... considering the large dataset for wow playerbase, the difference most likely won't be that big although technically true. Should've clarified it would be for this specific case though.
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  15. #475
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    in cas you have trouble reading i said first week on season one, did people carry keys from legion?
    obviously in later patches its easier, as people are decked in mythic gear and can carry keys from previous season, but we are heading for new expansion, not patch...

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    well, technicaly, no, thats how median work - half of "subjects" is under it half above, average does not necesarry divide data set into two halfs with equal amount of subjects in each
    It's not crazy to assume that "skill" is a random variable with a symmetric distribution. In that case the median coincides with the average.

  16. #476
    "Not everyone likes to raid"

    Ok then don't play a game about raiding. Go rp with loli furries in ff.

  17. #477
    Quote Originally Posted by Freds1234 View Post
    It's not crazy to assume that "skill" is a random variable with a symmetric distribution. In that case the median coincides with the average.
    eh... i would disagree, i think there is far less skilled players than bad players, which would drag average down... anyhow, doesnt matter as without data best we can do is guess, or "assume" if it sounds better to you

  18. #478
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    the difference is that their time is front-loaded so it seems like a lot more.

    Do you wanna do 50 hours in 5 sittings or 100 hours in 15 sittings?
    It really isn't though... I get from the outside looking in it would appear that way but the majority of CE guilds pre wod had players logging in at most 12 hours a week with maybe a few on off hours to get materials to raid. This myth of higher end players playing massive amounts of time outside of people who do it for a living...is well just that a myth.

  19. #479
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    in cas you have trouble reading i said first week on season one, did people carry keys from legion?
    obviously in later patches its easier, as people are decked in mythic gear and can carry keys from previous season, but we are heading for new expansion, not patch...

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    well, technicaly, no, thats how median work - half of "subjects" is under it half above, average does not necesarry divide data set into two halfs with equal amount of subjects in each
    we did 10's and 11s. you just had to actually pay attention in the 9 and then you did the ol key delete trick in the 10/11 and boom, keys for your entire guild

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whiskeyjac View Post
    It really isn't though... I get from the outside looking in it would appear that way but the majority of CE guilds pre wod had players logging in at most 12 hours a week with maybe a few on off hours to get materials to raid. This myth of higher end players playing massive amounts of time outside of people who do it for a living...is well just that a myth.
    I mean my guild and I farmed neck every patch but okay, it's not really a myth.
    most top 200~ guilds usually have neck "requests" before progression started.
    Things like "being able to get the secondary damage trait on heroic azerite" or "open the new minor essence" kinda deals.
    Last edited by Kehego; 2020-09-19 at 07:18 PM.

  20. #480
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    I mean my guild and I farmed neck every patch but okay, it's not really a myth.
    most top 200~ guilds usually have neck "requests" before progression started.
    Things like "being able to get the secondary damage trait on heroic azerite" or "open the new minor essence" kinda deals.
    I think you missed the 'pre-wod' part there.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

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