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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Artale View Post
    Raiding should always be the best source of the best gear. Otherwise there's no reason to raid and can spam M+ instead.
    Yet I'm always hearing how the main reason people love to raid is being in a group with friends and beating bosses together over time and that loot is completely secondary to the overall experience.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by SanitariumZ View Post
    noone will ever understand why they went away with BFA
    Its actually super simple, because tier sets sucked in both idea and execution. It was dead gear slots with random dev ideas that might suck totally and there was no option to equip something different in these slots if you wished to be competitive. If you didn't raid, you couldn't ever catch up to power level of raiders.

    Tier bonuses will never ever work properly vs normal gear. PoE is good example of that.

  3. #103
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    Raiding should always be the best source of the best gear.

    Otherwise there's no reason to raid other than clearing the raid once for the achievement and call it a day until the next content update.

    That's just my opinion though and who am I to say how a game should work.
    Last edited by Grimbolt; 2020-09-17 at 01:45 AM.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by SanitariumZ View Post
    It happened with lots of frustrated PvPers quitting the game a long time ago and it will happen again now. And when you won't have enough people to recruit for your little raiding guild cause there'll be noone around, only then will you realise how dumb this argument is. Don't believe me? Have you tried playing on the Alliance side lately? Whatever guilds survived the faction change locust in BFA had to either adapt by changing faction themselves or disband due to the lack of decent players left to recruit.
    You aren't wrong but... actually is probably due to two things: first increase in raid difficulty (I believe Wotlk difficulty level was optimal) because average players aren't really capable of clearing mythic, and heroic is joke to them. Second, fixed 20 raid rooster, you just don't have option to raid with more intimate setting (10). No heroic is just a tutorial.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimbolt View Post
    Raiding should always be the best source of the best gear.

    Otherwise there's no reason to raid other than clearing the raid once for the achievement and call it a day until the next content update.

    That's just my opinion though and who am I to say how a game should work.
    Well there is a fault in your logic. Game first and foremost should be entertaining. If you are raiding just for few pixels that are better (by artificial standards) than other pixels, and you don't have any satisfaction then you prolly should reevaluate.

    If you need to incentivise people to do activity that is suppose to be entertaining then it's what I call failed design.

    Mythic raids should give best gear but not better than obtainable via different methods. If other methods are significantly faster than you should just adjust them to have the same pace. As easy as that.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delever View Post
    2.) The last 2 bosses award higher ilvl gear. Just 2 bosses thats literally it.
    (And that was only for one raid for the whole of BFA)
    Speciation Is Gradual

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Berndorf View Post
    Yet I'm always hearing how the main reason people love to raid is being in a group with friends and beating bosses together over time and that loot is completely secondary to the overall experience.
    This is all true, but there's also a lot of people who are purely loot driven. And I'm not saying that's wrong btw, in a game such as wow it's perfectly understandable to have that approach. If you lower dungeon loot slightly, these people will probably still do dungeons from time to time, but will in turn be incentivized towards raiding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimbolt View Post
    Raiding should always be the best source of the best gear.

    Otherwise there's no reason to raid other than clearing the raid once for the achievement and call it a day until the next content update.

    That's just my opinion though and who am I to say how a game should work.
    I mean it differs between people. I enjoy raiding and certainly prefer it over m+ and have mostly been raiding through bfa and legion with some ocassional dungeon here and there, despite there being the same ilvl of items available at the end of a mythic plus dungeon. In a way, I'd argue that raiding has always been the best source of gear per time invested, but that hasn't been what the community believed and maybe Blizzard decided to make a radical change to make that even more clear.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Azerate View Post
    This is all true, but there's also a lot of people who are purely loot driven. And I'm not saying that's wrong btw, in a game such as wow it's perfectly understandable to have that approach. If you lower dungeon loot slightly, these people will probably still do dungeons from time to time, but will in turn be incentivized towards raiding.
    Purely? I mean maybe there are some people like this but lets be honest, if these people don't have even an ounce of entertainment from raids then they are either stupid or masochistic.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    Except that's just hyperbole. It doesn't have to be "this or that". It doesn't have to be so incredibly binary and absolute. It's entirely possible to have multiple pathjways to the same goal, and have them be meaningful.
    I said nothing about what is meaningful or what isn't.
    What I am saying is that Blizzard created M+ to satisfy those who want something other than raiding.
    But ultimately that play style, if taken to its furthest possible conclusion is nothing more than Diablo WOW.
    Meaning theoretically infinite difficulties with theoretically infinite rewards. This is the path the game has toyed with since Legion.

    However, some players don't want the game to become a Diablo style ARPG MMO and have been pushing back.
    So yes, literally either it is A or B in terms of the long term future of the game.
    You really can't have both and make everybody happy because if M+ has a top end "infinite" difficulty above raiding, raiders will complain.
    And vice versa.

    Blizzard is trying different things to balance things between the two but they mostly haven't worked out.
    Island Expeditions and warfronts are a good example. Torghast is another try at infinite replay but without infinite rewards.
    Last edited by InfiniteCharger; 2020-09-17 at 02:23 AM.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Purely? I mean maybe there are some people like this but lets be honest, if these people don't have even an ounce of entertainment from raids then they are either stupid or masochistic.
    I really enjoy getting nice shiny loot - but the idea of raiding PURELY for the loots is just fucking crazy, imo. Would i raid without the loot? probably not. At one point in time i raided with a group i really didnt like, purely because they were one of the only options for raiding heroic (no mythic) on the realm i was on. At that time, my focus shifted purely to "can i get enough loot to join a guild i actually want to play with?", and that mentality lasted about 2 raids before logic kicked in and i bailed.

    I joined a guild of players i liked, but a bit behind in progression, and we managed to surpass the other guild quite easily, as they kept losing players, while we had a nice dedicated group of raiders who genuinely enjoyed playing together.

    long story short, if someone raids purely for loot i just cant see them lasting long, i certainly didnt.

  10. #110
    If you want m+ to be equal to raiding then you need to add a lockout on m+ so you would not be able to spam m+ 24/7 to get loot.
    A Mythic raider or even Heroic raider might get 1 or 2 items per week and then he is locked out for the rest of the week.
    A M+ player can run how much m+ he wants and each time the party gets a item. If m+ would drop better ilvl then the best players would just spam high keys to get full gear within a week and then complain for the next 40 weeks that they have nothing to do in the game because they are done with their characters.

    With the new vault (weekly chest) having 3 options it is highly unlikely to get a duplicate item or something totally useless like now in BFA (weekly chest of disappointment)
    So lets say a m+ player gets each week a 226 ilvl from the vault that he can use, so after 8 weeks he would have 8 mythic raid level items, 1 legendary item and 6 end of dungeon items (210ilvl) So after 8 weeks he would have average 220 ilvl and a Season/raid tier usually last something around 40-50 weeks. So he would still have 40 weeks of that season to play and get upgrades. A heroic raider who does not run m+ would have 213 ilvl if lucky in the same time.

    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    What benifit is there in doing a +23 compared to a +15?
    only raider IO and boosted ego.
    Last edited by Pilek01; 2020-09-17 at 02:24 AM. Reason: adding reply to arkanon.

  11. #111
    So let me get this straight: AoE-caps, 1 single item for the whole group in the chest and the ilevel on that item when timing +15s will not even be equal to the first boss in the raid on HEROIC.

    This feels like the nail in the coffin for m+, if it goes live like this its not worth investing time in trying to push 15s. Honestly think Blizzard is underestimating how many of the players thats mainly interested in m+.

  12. #112
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    As someone who primarily just does M+ now, it doesn't make sense that an activity that is lockout based doesn't offer the best rewards. M+ is something you can basically spam, and regardless of how inefficient they make it, you can always do another dungeon to get another chance at a piece of loot.

    However, I think talking about the reward structure of M+ is still something that should be discussed. If they're going to continue with the model of having the last two bosses drop increased iLvLs (which I think is good for the game), then there should be room to increase the end of dungeon drops from M+ as well (within reason). Weekly cache loot being limited to Mythic raiding iLvL for completing a 14 or 15 is probably fine, but the rewards (whether it's cosmetic or end of dungeon drop rewards) stopping at 15 seems really silly to me.

    Basically what I'm trying to say is the 15 keys being the cutoff for everything reward wise is just way too low. Whether you want to increase iLvL of gear or offer more cosmetic rewards can be debated, but regardless, there just isn't enough. I'd argue that doing 15s in the first couple weeks (without being boosted) is probably the same difficulty of doing heroic raids in the first couple weeks, and while it's harder to compare to PvP, let's just say that it's more inline with the 2000-2100 bracket in PvP. As it stands, M+ is sort of void of a 2400 or Mythic raid difficulty tier as far as reward structure goes.

    Obviously M+ is unlimited and there should be a cutoff somewhere (you can keep climbing arena, despite 99.9% of rewards stopping at 2400), but 15 keys is a pretty low bar IMO.

    TLDR; Within reason, the more difficult the content is, the more rewards there should be (always keep in mind weekly lockouts though).

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyphael View Post
    I'll tell you what we need. Pet Battle Raids.
    Just when I thought I had my favorite posting of the week, I find this one! What a great visual it brings up.

    As to the OP, I find that WoW has a lot of things for me to do and I don't raid at all anymore. I don't find that Raiders or Mythic enthusiasts have much effect on my gameplay IF you take out the class/spec changes that are made to regulate their performance and it trickles down to me. They find stuff to do and I find stuff far away from them to do. It seems to work out well and I stay occupied even if the expansion storyline is disappointing.
    Stay safe and have fun!

  14. #114
    An easy solution would be to continue to scale the end of dungeon ilvl beyond 15, having it cap out in the 18-20 range. You could even have it so you actually have to time the dungeon, instead of just complete, to earn the max level drops. Having an ilvl in-between heroic and mythic raid ilvl coming from timing a +20 seems completely reasonable.

  15. #115
    I am Murloc! Selastan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artale View Post
    Raiding should always be the best source of the best gear. Otherwise there's no reason to raid and can spam M+ instead.
    I think there should be different ways to get best gear. Different sets for different tasks. I wanna see items that tie for BiS obtained from pet battles, or getting achievement points. There should be multiple paths to the top.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Selastan View Post
    I think there should be different ways to get best gear. Different sets for different tasks. I wanna see items that tie for BiS obtained from pet battles, or getting achievement points. There should be multiple paths to the top.
    So just to be clear - you want pet battles to reward mythic raid quality gear?

  17. #117
    I am Murloc! Selastan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    So just to be clear - you want pet battles to reward mythic raid quality gear?
    Yup. It would have to take some real dedication to do, though. Like buying some dungeon level gear with pet tokens, doing some pet-battle related quests which unlock heroic dungeon level gear to buy, and so on.

  18. #118
    A mythic raid requires you to get 20+ people. A timed +15 requires 4 pugs and next to no coordination. A mythic raid takes weeks to clear. A timed +15 takes less than an hour. These are not equivalent and should not grant equal gear. It's that simple. This is an MMO; not an arcade game even with Blizzard pushing it in that direction about as much as they possibly can.
    Whaleshark /spits on your science.

  19. #119
    I am Murloc! Selastan's Avatar
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    The gear would be related to pet battles, as well. Not just a recolor of the mythic dungeon set.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Selastan View Post
    Yup. It would have to take some real dedication to do, though. Like buying some dungeon level gear with pet tokens, doing some pet-battle related quests which unlock heroic dungeon level gear to buy, and so on.
    What on earth are you talking about? You think someone should get mythic quality items, obtained by the most dedicated and skilled players in the game, for playing a mini game pokemon rippoff? This is pure madness, no one can genuinely believe this type of drivel.

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