I thought we left the mindset that raiding is better than everything else back in WoD

[InfiniteCharger]

Except that's just hyperbole. It doesn't have to be "this or that". It doesn't have to be so incredibly binary and absolute. It's entirely possible to have multiple pathjways to the same goal, and have them be meaningful.

I said nothing about what is meaningful or what isn't.
What I am saying is that Blizzard created M+ to satisfy those who want something other than raiding.
But ultimately that play style, if taken to its furthest possible conclusion is nothing more than Diablo WOW.
Meaning theoretically infinite difficulties with theoretically infinite rewards. This is the path the game has toyed with since Legion.

However, some players don't want the game to become a Diablo style ARPG MMO and have been pushing back.
So yes, literally either it is A or B in terms of the long term future of the game.
You really can't have both and make everybody happy because if M+ has a top end "infinite" difficulty above raiding, raiders will complain.
And vice versa.

Blizzard is trying different things to balance things between the two but they mostly haven't worked out.
Island Expeditions and warfronts are a good example. Torghast is another try at infinite replay but without infinite rewards.

[arkanon]

Purely? I mean maybe there are some people like this but lets be honest, if these people don't have even an ounce of entertainment from raids then they are either stupid or masochistic.

I really enjoy getting nice shiny loot - but the idea of raiding PURELY for the loots is just fucking crazy, imo. Would i raid without the loot? probably not. At one point in time i raided with a group i really didnt like, purely because they were one of the only options for raiding heroic (no mythic) on the realm i was on. At that time, my focus shifted purely to "can i get enough loot to join a guild i actually want to play with?", and that mentality lasted about 2 raids before logic kicked in and i bailed.

I joined a guild of players i liked, but a bit behind in progression, and we managed to surpass the other guild quite easily, as they kept losing players, while we had a nice dedicated group of raiders who genuinely enjoyed playing together.

long story short, if someone raids purely for loot i just cant see them lasting long, i certainly didnt.

[Pilek01]

If you want m+ to be equal to raiding then you need to add a lockout on m+ so you would not be able to spam m+ 24/7 to get loot.
A Mythic raider or even Heroic raider might get 1 or 2 items per week and then he is locked out for the rest of the week.
A M+ player can run how much m+ he wants and each time the party gets a item. If m+ would drop better ilvl then the best players would just spam high keys to get full gear within a week and then complain for the next 40 weeks that they have nothing to do in the game because they are done with their characters.

With the new vault (weekly chest) having 3 options it is highly unlikely to get a duplicate item or something totally useless like now in BFA (weekly chest of disappointment)
So lets say a m+ player gets each week a 226 ilvl from the vault that he can use, so after 8 weeks he would have 8 mythic raid level items, 1 legendary item and 6 end of dungeon items (210ilvl) So after 8 weeks he would have average 220 ilvl and a Season/raid tier usually last something around 40-50 weeks. So he would still have 40 weeks of that season to play and get upgrades. A heroic raider who does not run m+ would have 213 ilvl if lucky in the same time.

What benifit is there in doing a +23 compared to a +15?

only raider IO and boosted ego.

[Uniqed]

So let me get this straight: AoE-caps, 1 single item for the whole group in the chest and the ilevel on that item when timing +15s will not even be equal to the first boss in the raid on HEROIC.

This feels like the nail in the coffin for m+, if it goes live like this its not worth investing time in trying to push 15s. Honestly think Blizzard is underestimating how many of the players thats mainly interested in m+.

[Tojara]

As someone who primarily just does M+ now, it doesn't make sense that an activity that is lockout based doesn't offer the best rewards. M+ is something you can basically spam, and regardless of how inefficient they make it, you can always do another dungeon to get another chance at a piece of loot.

However, I think talking about the reward structure of M+ is still something that should be discussed. If they're going to continue with the model of having the last two bosses drop increased iLvLs (which I think is good for the game), then there should be room to increase the end of dungeon drops from M+ as well (within reason). Weekly cache loot being limited to Mythic raiding iLvL for completing a 14 or 15 is probably fine, but the rewards (whether it's cosmetic or end of dungeon drop rewards) stopping at 15 seems really silly to me.

Basically what I'm trying to say is the 15 keys being the cutoff for everything reward wise is just way too low. Whether you want to increase iLvL of gear or offer more cosmetic rewards can be debated, but regardless, there just isn't enough. I'd argue that doing 15s in the first couple weeks (without being boosted) is probably the same difficulty of doing heroic raids in the first couple weeks, and while it's harder to compare to PvP, let's just say that it's more inline with the 2000-2100 bracket in PvP. As it stands, M+ is sort of void of a 2400 or Mythic raid difficulty tier as far as reward structure goes.

Obviously M+ is unlimited and there should be a cutoff somewhere (you can keep climbing arena, despite 99.9% of rewards stopping at 2400), but 15 keys is a pretty low bar IMO.

TLDR; Within reason, the more difficult the content is, the more rewards there should be (always keep in mind weekly lockouts though).

[Metrox]

I'll tell you what we need. Pet Battle Raids.

Just when I thought I had my favorite posting of the week, I find this one! What a great visual it brings up.

As to the OP, I find that WoW has a lot of things for me to do and I don't raid at all anymore. I don't find that Raiders or Mythic enthusiasts have much effect on my gameplay IF you take out the class/spec changes that are made to regulate their performance and it trickles down to me. They find stuff to do and I find stuff far away from them to do. It seems to work out well and I stay occupied even if the expansion storyline is disappointing.
Stay safe and have fun!

[siyX-]

An easy solution would be to continue to scale the end of dungeon ilvl beyond 15, having it cap out in the 18-20 range. You could even have it so you actually have to time the dungeon, instead of just complete, to earn the max level drops. Having an ilvl in-between heroic and mythic raid ilvl coming from timing a +20 seems completely reasonable.

[Selastan]

Raiding should always be the best source of the best gear. Otherwise there's no reason to raid and can spam M+ instead.

I think there should be different ways to get best gear. Different sets for different tasks. I wanna see items that tie for BiS obtained from pet battles, or getting achievement points. There should be multiple paths to the top.

[arkanon]

I think there should be different ways to get best gear. Different sets for different tasks. I wanna see items that tie for BiS obtained from pet battles, or getting achievement points. There should be multiple paths to the top.

So just to be clear - you want pet battles to reward mythic raid quality gear?

[Selastan]

So just to be clear - you want pet battles to reward mythic raid quality gear?

Yup. It would have to take some real dedication to do, though. Like buying some dungeon level gear with pet tokens, doing some pet-battle related quests which unlock heroic dungeon level gear to buy, and so on.

[Irefusetodie]

A mythic raid requires you to get 20+ people. A timed +15 requires 4 pugs and next to no coordination. A mythic raid takes weeks to clear. A timed +15 takes less than an hour. These are not equivalent and should not grant equal gear. It's that simple. This is an MMO; not an arcade game even with Blizzard pushing it in that direction about as much as they possibly can.

[Selastan]

The gear would be related to pet battles, as well. Not just a recolor of the mythic dungeon set.

[arkanon]

Yup. It would have to take some real dedication to do, though. Like buying some dungeon level gear with pet tokens, doing some pet-battle related quests which unlock heroic dungeon level gear to buy, and so on.

What on earth are you talking about? You think someone should get mythic quality items, obtained by the most dedicated and skilled players in the game, for playing a mini game pokemon rippoff? This is pure madness, no one can genuinely believe this type of drivel.

[Archmage Alodi]

I'm just glad that I don't have to spam m+ to get ready for split runs, don't care how it affects everyone else tbh.
Raids have a weekly lockout as well , they should give better rewards than repeatable content.

[arkanon]

I would love it if every content-type of gear had its own stat that made it superior in that form of content and you could get top ilvl doing any kind of gear.

Like if raid gear came with the "raid" stat that only worked in raids. PvP gear with a "PvP" stat that only works in PvP. M+ gear for M+. And "world" gear for world content, heroic dungeons, and maybe LFR for the most casual of players.

The gear would still be useful in other types of content but super-good in its tailored content.

This i agree with - but the person claiming that the best gear in the game should come from.................pet battles? thats a new level of delusion right there.

"i want the best gear in the game, but i only want to do a braindead pokemon ripoff mini game that could be played on my phone - i dont want to put in any actual effort"

[Selastan]

A mythic raid requires you to get 20+ people. A timed +15 requires 4 pugs and next to no coordination. A mythic raid takes weeks to clear. A timed +15 takes less than an hour. These are not equivalent and should not grant equal gear. It's that simple. This is an MMO; not an arcade game even with Blizzard pushing it in that direction about as much as they possibly can.

Yes, this is an MMO, not an action RPG. The fantasy isn't just about fighting, it's about imersing yourself in a role. If you want to roleplay the kind of adventurer who quests to create a menagerie of rare beasts, not to fight the toughest enemies, there should be rewards for you. The problem is that WoW's only real rewards are gear. Sure, there are cosmetics like mounts and whatnot, but that isn't the sort of steady, constant reward progression that gear is. And this shouldn't be JUST for pet battles. It should be for people who just want to do world quests, achievement hunt, or PvP.

- - - Updated - - -

I would love it if every content-type of gear had its own stat that made it superior in that form of content and you could get top ilvl doing any kind of gear.

Like if raid gear came with the "raid" stat that only worked in raids. PvP gear with a "PvP" stat that only works in PvP. M+ gear for M+. And "world" gear for world content, heroic dungeons, and maybe LFR for the most casual of players.

The gear would still be useful in other types of content but super-good in its tailored content.

Bring back elemental resistances, maybe? Kill the molten giant boss to get "Breatsplate of Flaming Fire", which has fire resistance that you need on higher difficulties of the same raid.

[arkanon]

Yes, this is an MMO, not an action RPG. The fantasy isn't just about fighting, it's about imersing yourself in a role. If you want to roleplay the kind of adventurer who quests to create a menagerie of rare beasts, not to fight the toughest enemies, there should be rewards for you. The problem is that WoW's only real rewards are gear. Sure, there are cosmetics like mounts and whatnot, but that isn't the sort of steady, constant reward progression that gear is. And this shouldn't be JUST for pet battles. It should be for people who just want to do world quests, achievement hunt, or PvP.

And there are - PETS. You pet battle, to obtain rare and powerful beats - the EXACT thing you said you wanted.

[Selastan]

This i agree with - but the person claiming that the best gear in the game should come from.................pet battles? thats a new level of delusion right there.

"i want the best gear in the game, but i only want to do a braindead pokemon ripoff mini game that could be played on my phone - i dont want to put in any actual effort"

I just don't want WoW to turn into a game that rewards skill that much. WoW shouldn't turn into a fast-paced action game. It should be a game about stats and strategy, not the ability to quickly react or memorize a rotation.

- - - Updated - - -

And there are - PETS. You pet battle, to obtain rare and powerful beats - the EXACT thing you said you wanted.

So you honestly feel like pet battles, in their current state, are fine? Not side content, but something that receives the same attention from Blizzard that raids do? Because while that would work, it certainly seems to me like the core gameplay loop is all about getting gear. Pet battlers are second-class players, and NO ONE should be a second class player in an MMO.

[Lavey]

As a mythic raider: The new system sucks like hell. I will log in twice a week for raiding progression and one quick 14 and thats it. Fuck this new system, there is literally nothing wortwhile to do once you set a foot in mythic.

As someone who also mythic raids, this makes my playtime more efficient, enjoyable, and social. It'll allow for better quality of life balance since I already have 140 of the weekly 168 hours accounted for. It basically turns WoW into "after work cocktails" once you've established your character/role(s) foundation. I honestly relish the idea of not having to over invest my limited free time into the game.

[arkanon]

So you honestly feel like pet battles, in their current state, are fine? Not side content, but something that receives the same attention from Blizzard that raids do? Because while that would work, it certainly seems to me like the core gameplay loop is all about getting gear. Pet battlers are second-class players, and NO ONE should be a second class player in an MMO.

You are entirely delusional, that is not at all how an mmo works, or ANY game. Pet battling is a minigame - i wouldnt say someone who purely plays for pet battles is a "second-class" player, thats unnecessarily dramatic, but they have chosen (yes, take note - its a CHOICE) to partake in an activity well outside the core GEAR PROGRESSION loop of the game. If people want to hang out in the inn and RP, i have zero issues with that, but to expect BIS gear that rivals that of mythic raiders is absolutely insane.