I thought we left the mindset that raiding is better than everything else back in WoD

[Cthulhu fhtagn]

Yeah im not really a fan of having to grind mythic raids to do my best at m+ which i enjoy more. I guess this is what the 4 pvp players feel like? Another thing is that rewards stop at +15 again. I'd like any insentive to do higher than that, even if its just those 3 missing item levels vs heroic.

[Lubefist]

Is it really hard concept to grasp that alot of high end raiders and arenaplayers don't really care about loot and they do it for competition/challenge/fun and not to hunt items? So the argument for "raiding needs to have best loot" is not really all that waterproof.

OT but I would love if Blizzard would make permanent arenaserver for players like me. Click items from vendor and just focus on competition.

[Kehego]

It's Blizzard, they almost NEVER learn the right lessons and realistically whenever they say they've learned something they're one disastrous quarter away from a complete and totally misguided 180.



Nope. M+ was designed as an alternative to raiding so its gear should be equivalent. You don't raid solely for gear, you raid because you like raiding. If I didn't thoroughly enjoy it, I wouldn't do it just for imaginary pixels.



It's a lot more effort than Heroic raiding. You can do heroic raiding with your eyes closed.

You can roll your face across a 15 key, too

people literally 3 man 15 keys rn, that's why the gold carry meta exists

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Is it really hard concept to grasp that alot of high end raiders and arenaplayers don't really care about loot and they do it for competition/challenge/fun and not to hunt items? So the argument for "raiding needs to have best loot" is not really all that waterproof.

OT but I would love if Blizzard would make permanent arenaserver for players like me. Click items from vendor and just focus on competition.

arena players that say they don't do it for loot are lying bitches because they cried in legion when there were templates and gear didnt matter

[Lubefist]

You can roll your face across a 15 key, too

Pugging a +15 has way higher chances of being absolute clusterfuck than HC raids.

[NatePsy]

Raiding IS better than everything else. it's the backbone of the game and very likely always will be.

doesn't mean that they can get away with neglecting other parts of the game though.

It's funny though, I remember them speaking about Mythic raiding not making a return on investment (Dev resources) so how exactly is it the backbone of the game when it's highest difficulty is failing to net them a return on investment? Numbers-wise M+ seems to be drawing in the return on investment (Raider.io numbers are a pretty damn good example of that.) but they're being too stubborn to accept a neatly packaged gift when it's placed infront of them and instead take the piece of charcoal that is raiding and keep trying to tell everybody else it's amazing when really it isn't all that.

[Jastall]

No, it was 100% spammed for gear, because the gear was better than heroic gear
and yes, 15-20 minutes for 2 (on a deplete) or more pieces of greater than heroic gear is dumb

Apart from some exceptionally great pieces like Geti'ikku or the WM caster trinket, the gear from M+ is hardly that special, and my guild replaced most if not rarely all of it by the time we had Heroic on farm and most Mythic bosses down, which didn't take that long, and some of my guildies pushed 20+ keys easily.

And if you manage to complete a dungeon in 15-20s minutes you hardly deplete, so I don't understand that argument.

[Lubefist]

arena players that say they don't do it for loot are lying bitches because they cried in legion when there were templates and gear didnt matter

Sure bud. That's why everytime someone manages to pull together even half decent PR tournament server they are packed with old and new players and are crazy active.

[Kehego]

Pugging a +15 has way higher chances of being absolute clusterfuck than HC raids.

absolutely false. go pug n'zoth

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Sure bud. That's why everytime someone manages to pull together even half decent PR tournament server they are packed with old and new players and are crazy active.

because people like free shit and are cheap.

[NatePsy]

absolutely false. go pug n'zoth

One boss out of how many in that raid again?

[Kehego]

Apart from some exceptionally great pieces like Geti'ikku or the WM caster trinket, the gear from M+ is hardly that special, and my guild replaced most if not rarely all of it by the time we had Heroic on farm and most Mythic bosses down, which didn't take that long, and some of my guildies pushed 20+ keys easily.

And if you manage to complete a dungeon in 15-20s minutes you hardly deplete, so I don't understand that argument.

a carried key/key with people takes 20 mins
a depleted key is 2 pieces of gear
granted the wording could be better, but m+ has trumped raiding as a source of loot for what, 4 years now?

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One boss out of how many in that raid again?

go pug ilgy or xanesh or vexiona or drestagath or any boss that isn't tank/spank.

I could call out like 60% of the bosses in this expansion, but pug raids are generally not even worth doing unless something like unguent caress or diver's folly is on the bosses loot table

[Lubefist]

absolutely false. go pug n'zoth

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because people like free shit and are cheap.

Rofl. You don't know what you're talking about. HC "progress" player spotted with dented ego for someone saying M+ is harder than the content his guild has made a real nice progress in for couple of months now.

Also having played in alot of AT's just gonna say that you are fucking ignorant about that topic too.

[Kehego]

Rofl. You don't know what you're talking about. HC "progress" player spotted with dented ego for someone saying M+ is harder than the content his guild has made a real nice progress in for couple of months now.

Also having played in alot of AT's just gonna say that you are fucking ignorant about that topic too.

Lol buddy my guild is us top 100 and we get week 1 aotc and ce every tier.
lemme ask you this, why else do you think people selling n'zoth kills are making millions from carries rn?

[Zig Zug]

You are rewarded if you fail in M+. But not in Raiding.

[Hellobolis]

It's funny though, I remember them speaking about Mythic raiding not making a return on investment (Dev resources) so how exactly is it the backbone of the game when it's highest difficulty is failing to net them a return on investment? Numbers-wise M+ seems to be drawing in the return on investment (Raider.io numbers are a pretty damn good example of that.) but they're being too stubborn to accept a neatly packaged gift when it's placed infront of them and instead take the piece of charcoal that is raiding and keep trying to tell everybody else it's amazing when really it isn't all that.

HALO products almost never make a return on investment themselves, it's their effect on mindshare what it's all about.

[kaminaris]

The math is still in the benefit of someone only doing mythic+, compared to someone doing only mythic raiding. By far. We see this in the game currently all the time. Working with recruitment in a mythic raiding guild I do actually have first hand experience in this.

You don't know math then, absolutely.

Oh so lets run a simulation for people that don't really understand the problem.

Right now we have about 100 (98 for my spec without azerite gear- actually counted that) items form dungeons, lets call that dungeon loot pool. On the other hand raid has about ~30 (28 for my spec) items and that is raid loot pool.

Now half of these items are useless in both cases meaning even lower ilvl can be better with good stats.

That leaves us 50 kinda useful items from M+ out of 100
15 items from raid out of 30.

First weeks you will probably get upgrade anyways because of chances, but remember that vault also gives item if you killed raid bosses
R - Raider
M - Mythic plus guy
Wx - week x

W1: R: 50% + 49%, M: 50%
After first week raider has 2 items and M+ guy got only one
Pool of useful items get slimmer by one/two item slot (so all items from that slot, lets assume they both hit bis)

W2: R: 46% + 48%, M: 46.5%
After second week raider got 4 items unless he is extremely unlucky (but we assume medium luck in both cases)
Pool of useful items got slimmer by another item slot for M+ guy and 2 slots for raider
The crux here is that since vault ALSO offers items from raid raider got actually higher chance to get something useful than dungeon guy despite having more slots filled up.

W3: R: 36% + 36%, M+: 43%
After third week you can actually start see duplicates but since raid allows to trade items, you can also get something good from other people as well.
Vault doesnt allow trading, if all your options are shit, then tough luck.
Raider got 6 items, M+ guy got 3, that is average that can and will happen since high chances and loot trading plus coins that again, works in raid, doesn't work for vault.

W4: R: 26% + 22%, M+: 40%
And forth week is where chances are somewhat similar, even tho raider still has advantage, however statistics says they both get one item assuming medium luck.
Raider got 7 items, M+ guy got 4 items.

At week fifth, dupes are bound to happen in raid, raider continues to have advantage and has half the slots filled in, ready to receive 2 items (one from raid one from vault) and got coins just in case.
M+ guy chances goes down to 36%.


Now the formulas if you are interested in:

We have ~15 gear slots to fill. Assuming equal distribution of gear there is around
2 items per slot in raid
and
6.66 items per slot in dungeons

Formula for calculating chance of getting upgrade in slot that hasn't been upgraded yet is:

chance = ((totalSlots - filledInSlots) * (itemPerSlot / 2)) / totalLootAmount

for example if you have 2 good items, you only want 13 items, you divide itemPerSlot because we assumed that half of items is total garbage.

chance = ((15 - 2) * (6.66/2)) / 100
chance = 0.4329 = 43%

There is just no way to ever catch up to raider.

[Aggrophobic]

And if you raid mythic, you get 1-2 items per week from bosses.

At least and you'll also have HC of course that also gives much better loot.

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Completely false. If you take a fresh level 120 and make them do only mythic + for the same amount of hours as someone who is fresh 120 and put them into mythic raiding, the guy doing only mythic+ will reach the highest item level faster than the mythic raider 10 out 10 times.

If your only reason to play the game is to get character power. Raiding is not worth it because of mythic+

How do you come to that conclusion? First of all, Mythic raids gives you better loot and also, I can't recall a single tier where it took me some 20 weeks to get maxed out.

[kaminaris]

If you are of low power then 3 options of 226 gear will most likely be useful even if the loot pool is very large. I haven't done the math but let's just be realistic. And if you are of high power already where you only need a specific piece, then it's not really a disaster if are unlucky. You will always get the currency if you don't need any of the pieces. Again, I think everything will be fine and I'm very positive about the changes. It seems like you are being a bit too dramatic.

And I did the math, M+ is not even remotely close.

[Kehego]

You don't know math then, absolutely.

Oh so lets run a simulation for people that don't really understand the problem.

Right now we have about 100 (98 for my spec without azerite gear- actually counted that) items form dungeons, lets call that dungeon loot pool. On the other hand raid has about ~30 (28 for my spec) items and that is raid loot pool.

Now half of these items are useless in both cases meaning even lower ilvl can be better with good stats.

That leaves us 50 kinda useful items from M+ out of 100
15 items from raid out of 30.

First weeks you will probably get upgrade anyways because of chances, but remember that vault also gives item if you killed raid bosses
R - Raider
M - Mythic plus guy
Wx - week x

W1: R: 50% + 49%, M: 50%
After first week raider has 2 items and M+ guy got only one
Pool of useful items get slimmer by one/two item slot (so all items from that slot, lets assume they both hit bis)

W2: R: 46% + 48%, M: 46.5%
After second week raider got 4 items unless he is extremely unlucky (but we assume medium luck in both cases)
Pool of useful items got slimmer by another item slot for M+ guy and 2 slots for raider
The crux here is that since vault ALSO offers items from raid raider got actually higher chance to get something useful than dungeon guy despite having more slots filled up.

W3: R: 36% + 36%, M+: 43%
After third week you can actually start see duplicates but since raid allows to trade items, you can also get something good from other people as well.
Vault doesnt allow trading, if all your options are shit, then tough luck.
Raider got 6 items, M+ guy got 3, that is average that can and will happen since high chances and loot trading plus coins that again, works in raid, doesn't work for vault.

W4: R: 26% + 22%, M+: 40%
And forth week is where chances are somewhat similar, even tho raider still has advantage, however statistics says they both get one item assuming medium luck.
Raider got 7 items, M+ guy got 4 items.

At week fifth, dupes are bound to happen in raid, raider continues to have advantage and has half the slots filled in, ready to receive 2 items (one from raid one from vault) and got coins just in case.
M+ guy chances goes down to 36%.


Now the formulas if you are interested in:

We have ~15 gear slots to fill. Assuming equal distribution of gear there is around
2 items per slot in raid
and
6.66 items per slot in dungeons

Formula for calculating chance of getting upgrade in slot that hasn't been upgraded yet is:

chance = ((totalSlots - filledInSlots) * (itemPerSlot / 2)) / totalLootAmount

for example if you have 2 good items, you only want 13 items, you divide itemPerSlot because we assumed that half of items is total garbage.

chance = ((15 - 2) * (6.66/2)) / 100
chance = 0.4329 = 43%

There is just no way to ever catch up to raider.

your math is flawed from onset because you're doing it with the assumption M+ guy does 1 dungeon a week

[Argorwal]

Or maybe weekly lockouts are an ancient and sub-optimal way to design your game as a service nowadays? You name the competition yourself, WoW is one of the very few Co-Op games that have weekly lockouts and subscriptions, maybe it's time to go with the time and remove these fragments from 20 years ago. It is very obvious that M+ is more popular than Raiding and part of that is that it's repeatable content with no real lockouts. A complete overhaul of "lockouts" would benefit WoW the most, it is just not up to par with modern game design anymore. The vast majority of gamers don't want to be locked out of content because the game says: "You can't play anymore with this character, go log into your alt if you want to enjoy content and receive rewards!!!" Without M+ I am confident to assume that WoW would drop it's playerbase very rapidly. Times have changed.

Can you imagine the cries of “forced” grinding if raid lockouts were removed and you could just kill the bosses over and over??

[Nevcairiel]

Nope. M+ was designed as an alternative to raiding so its gear should be equivalent.

Then make M+ non-spammable, at least not for gear. If I can get 2-3 pieces out of a raid, you should not get more then that from M+. As long as its infinitely spammable, it needs to have other drawbacks.

You don't get equal or better loot, and no limit.

I'm sure changing this the other way around, ie. limiting loot you can get per week would be observed as far worse by the M+ players.