I thought we left the mindset that raiding is better than everything else back in WoD

[Kehego]

Then make M+ non-spammable, at least not for gear. If I can get 2-3 pieces out of a raid, you should not get more then that from M+. As long as its infinitely spammable, it needs to have other drawbacks.

You don't get equal or better loot, and no limit.

I'm sure changing this the other way around, ie. limiting loot you can get per week would be observed as far worse by the M+ players.

Exactly. 210 gear in all slots >>>>> 2 pieces of 213, 2 pieces 220, and greens elsewhere.

[Elbob]

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All of that assumes a few things.
The raider is doing as many M+ as the M+ guy or any at all. So you arent really comparing a M+ guy to a raider. You are comparing 2 M+ players where 1 also raids.
Heroic raid vault rewards are = to that of M+15 vault rewards

"After first week raider has 2 items and M+ guy got only one"
Why is it assumed the raider is getting 2 items week 1 and the M+ guy gets 1?
As far as I know you get to collect 1 item from the vault per week regardless of how many content types you complete.

"The crux here is that since vault ALSO offers items from raid raider got actually higher chance to get something useful than dungeon guy despite having more slots filled up."
No? unless a raid piece is on average more useful than a M+ piece of equal ilvl. This is a total shot in the dark and depends on the stats your class wants. Nya'lotha for example had 1 PIECE that was bis itemization for my class on all slots that use standard secondary itemization(so not counting azerite or trinkets) while M+ has a leather crit/vers piece for every slot and multiple on some of those slots. Now how does that effect the collection rate of well itemized gear?

As you said raiding results in more gear trading so the acquisition rate of your well itemized pieces happens quickly in raid by comparison to M+ also the average coin value in raid is higher than that of M+(due to loot pool size per boss vs dungeon). So the value of the bonus raid loot slots on the vault will decline faster than that of M+ slots. A raider who doesn't run M+ will very quickly stop seeing upgrades from the vault.

[InFamous Gerbil]

I like how people keep bringing up WoD but fail to mention Wrath and BC. Both considered the best expansions in WoW’s history, and both had raiding at its center. Raiding should always provide the strongest gear. It wasn’t a problem in the golden age of WoW, nor it would be a problem now. The only thing that should be plentiful is the amount of ways to get gear for raiding.

On the topic of WoD and casuals. WoD failed because there was absolutely nothing to do outside of raiding. And people need to stop equating good content with gear. Good content can only reward cosmetics. A majority of casuals care more about cosmetics than gear. Otherwise, they would be raiding mythic. So no amount of gearing paths for the best gear in the game isn’t going to change that.

[BeepBoo]

if you think M+15 is (or will be in SL) below heroic barely above last normal bosses difficulty im sure you never progresed past LFR or M+3 without being carried...

M+ has the ability to be nolyfed as it is, so having the ilvl for its gear be lower makes sense IMO. Want it to be on par with what it actually resembles, difficulty wise (heroic raid IMO)? Make it drop a lot less and have weekly lockouts. Stop looking for endless slot machine pulls that disproportionately toss gear at you compared to ye old standard of raids.

[Tesshin20]

And if you raid mythic, you get 1-2 items per week from bosses.

That's only if you get funneled the gear. If you start raiding a new raiding at the beginning of the patch. 1 item every 2 weeks is somewhat the general rate to get an upgrade.

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At least and you'll also have HC of course that also gives much better loot.

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How do you come to that conclusion? First of all, Mythic raids gives you better loot and also, I can't recall a single tier where it took me some 20 weeks to get maxed out.

By raiding and doing dungeons for 15 years.

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And I did the math, M+ is not even remotely close.

Then your math is flowed. It doesn't represent reality.

[DeiVias]

What pisses people off about Mythic Raids is that most of them don't wanna put forth the effort to do them, yet wanna have the highest ilvl possible. They want easier content to drop equal ilvl so they can epeen without putting in the work. Easier content means less work.

Mythic Raiding isn't for the faint of heart. Wiping for hours and/or spending weeks on one boss. Its not for everyone. Mythic Raids should always give highest level loot because it requires the highest level of commitment. Im not saying Mythic+ isn't difficult at higher levels but it requires almost no time. 30 min is nothing. Even if you fail the timer miserably, you still get loot at the end and out of your weekly chest. If you fail in Mythic Raid, you get NOTHING.

Mythic Raiding > Mythic Dungeons and always will be. Thus it is being rewarded as it should be.

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Because they cant have the higher ilvl without doing it and thats why they are pissed.

Anyone arguing Mythic+ should have the same level gear as Mythic raiding is an idiot, Mythic raiding isn't easy and anyone doing it deserves the best loot.

I do think high level Mythic+ should have the same ilvl as Heroic raiding though.

The nerf to loot drop chance was enough, they didn't need to lower the ilvl as well.

[Recovery]

You are rewarded if you fail in M+. But not in Raiding.

This.

And you get stacks of determination until you can finally succeed at failing lol.

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Anyone arguing Mythic+ should have the same level gear as Mythic raiding is an idiot, Mythic raiding isn't easy and anyone doing it deserves the best loot.

I do think high level Mythic+ should have the same ilvl as Heroic raiding though.

The nerf to loot drop chance was enough, they didn't need to lower the ilvl as well.

Keep everything as it was... Add a lockout to the dungeons like everything else in the game has.

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Anyone arguing Mythic+ should have the same level gear as Mythic raiding is an idiot, Mythic raiding isn't easy and anyone doing it deserves the best loot.

I do think high level Mythic+ should have the same ilvl as Heroic raiding though.

The nerf to loot drop chance was enough, they didn't need to lower the ilvl as well.

Keep everything as it was... Add a lockout to the dungeons like everything else in the game has.

IMO base mythic and all keys should share a lockout per dungeon.

[Kaver]

And I did the math, M+ is not even remotely close.

Remember that stats are going to have diminishing returns in Shadowlands so stacking the same stats will not necessarily be good. I think it is wrong to assume that 50 % of the loot pool in M+ will be useless especially in the beginning when players have bad gear. A piece of 226 loot will probably always be an upgrade in the beginning of the tier. Again, I don't really see an issue. I don't think doing +14-15 keys should give the exact same reward as doing mythic raiding. I would agree that doing +20 keys should give a better reward. Personally I think it's a mistake by Blizzard to cap M+ gear at +15. It is way to easy.

[kaminaris]

your math is flawed from onset because you're doing it with the assumption M+ guy does 1 dungeon a week

Doesn't matter how many you do since you dont get 220 from them, just below heroic level loot.

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Remember that stats are going to have diminishing returns in Shadowlands so stacking the same stats will not necessarily be good. I think it is wrong to assume that 50 % of the loot pool in M+ will be useless especially in the beginning when players have bad gear. A piece of 226 loot will probably always be an upgrade in the beginning of the tier. Again, I don't really see an issue. I don't think doing +14-15 keys should give the exact same reward as doing mythic raiding. I would agree that doing +20 keys should give a better reward. Personally I think it's a mistake by Blizzard to cap M+ gear at +15. It is way to easy.

Even more than 50% is useless. 50% was really generous.

Diminishing returns won't hit you till like last patch of expansion.

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Then your math is flowed. It doesn't represent reality.

Yeah because its over generous to M+ side, reality will be even worse as I would say maybe 30% of dungeon loot is actually useful, while in raids you got 30 items so there can't be less than 50%.

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All of that assumes a few things.
The raider is doing as many M+ as the M+ guy or any at all. So you arent really comparing a M+ guy to a raider. You are comparing 2 M+ players where 1 also raids.
Heroic raid vault rewards are = to that of M+15 vault rewards

Vault also gives you options if you just did raid boss, no need to actually do M+. its just a bonus option.

"After first week raider has 2 items and M+ guy got only one"
Why is it assumed the raider is getting 2 items week 1 and the M+ guy gets 1?
As far as I know you get to collect 1 item from the vault per week regardless of how many content types you complete.

8 bosses * 2 items per boss = 16 pieces of loot, almost guaranteed to get one item.
Exactly 80% chance to just drop item - 220. Well you wont be doing all M bosses first week anyways but still fairly high chance to get something.
Then you got another chance from coins
Another chance if someone gets dupe (not first week tho)
And another chance at great vault.

"The crux here is that since vault ALSO offers items from raid raider got actually higher chance to get something useful than dungeon guy despite having more slots filled up."
No? unless a raid piece is on average more useful than a M+ piece of equal ilvl. This is a total shot in the dark and depends on the stats your class wants. Nya'lotha for example had 1 PIECE that was bis itemization for my class on all slots that use standard secondary itemization(so not counting azerite or trinkets) while M+ has a leather crit/vers piece for every slot and multiple on some of those slots. Now how does that effect the collection rate of well itemized gear?

Yes, because chance of hitting one item per 100 is exactly 1%. That excludes trinkets as usually raid got OP shit trinks.
And lets not forget about raid trash loot.
There is much much higher chance to hit something useful from raid than M+. Due to sheer amount of garbo loot there.
Plus you can coin what you want from bosses, cant do that from M+ chest. Cant target specific dungeon loot in any way.

As you said raiding results in more gear trading so the acquisition rate of your well itemized pieces happens quickly in raid by comparison to M+ also the average coin value in raid is higher than that of M+(due to loot pool size per boss vs dungeon). So the value of the bonus raid loot slots on the vault will decline faster than that of M+ slots. A raider who doesn't run M+ will very quickly stop seeing upgrades from the vault.

Raiders will do these 4 dungeons regardless. Lets be honest here.

[Kaver]

Even more than 50% is useless. 50% was really generous.

It depends what gear you have. To be fair, doing +14-15 keys should not even give 226 gear at all. People should be doing +20 keys to get that loot. M+ players should just feel lucky that they are able to get that level of loot with ease.

[Krimzin]

Anyone arguing Mythic+ should have the same level gear as Mythic raiding is an idiot, Mythic raiding isn't easy and anyone doing it deserves the best loot.

I do think high level Mythic+ should have the same ilvl as Heroic raiding though.

The nerf to loot drop chance was enough, they didn't need to lower the ilvl as well.

\


Completely agree. However, I think Blizzard is setting the stage for Higher Mythic+ rewards, meaning rewards up to Mythic+20 which will be above Heroic but below Mythic Raids. Just as Mythic15 ilvl was in BFA

[taishar68]

Just for reference, here is the stat increase on a given item from Nathria on all 4 levels of difficulty:

	RF	Normal	Heroic	Mythic
Item Level	187	200	213	226
Main Stat	56	64	72	82
Stamina	90	106	126	149
Sec. 1	48	52	56	61
Sec 2	64	69	75	81
Increase
Main Stat	-	8	8	10
Stamina	-	16	20	23
Sec. 1	-	4	4	5
Sec 2	-	5	6	6

Based on those increments, it is reasonable to assume a similar item with an ilvl of 210 would have about 70 main stat, 120 stam, 54 on stat 1, and 73 on stat 2. I know scaling will be different in SL but I am hard pressed to see that level of granularity being hugely impactful to player performance. Which kind of makes you wonder why they don't just make Mythic + gear 213 as well, but it doesn't really seem like a big deal, performance wise.

[kaminaris]

It depends what gear you have. To be fair, doing +14-15 keys should not even give 226 gear at all. People should be doing +20 keys to get that loot. M+ players should just feel lucky that they are able to get that level of loot with ease.

Obviously we are comparing it to normal/mythic loot. Item with bad stats can be worse than "bis" counterpart that is 15 ilvls lower. 16 in SL.

To actually match that power you need at least one of two good stat and THIRD stat. Any other combination is worse.
Unless you play class that has flat scaling but haven't seen that since mop.

[Aggrophobic]

By raiding and doing dungeons for 15 years.

Obviously, you're not that good at it if it takes you almost half a year to gear up.

[Nuciek]

People will be obliged to not join any M+ until they have run the dungeon where they need loot.

For example, no 2h spec would join any M+ until they've done their weekly Kings Rest run first to get a shot at Get'ikku.

Also causes massive issues for the more organized groups, because you then have to settle on a dungeon that you're doing first within the week, if someone needs a Trinket from Dungeon X, but someone else needs a weapon from Dungeon Y, you would either have to log onto alts (which in turn have to "use" their lockout) or someone needs to take the bullet and waste their Lockout on the highest Ilvl.

I agree, but I think it could be somehow tweaked to solve some of those issues at least partially, like maybe using the ekstra roll style mechanic here as a deciding factor on which instance you want to get loot. So you finish an instance and than you decide if you want to use your weekly chance for loot at that specific reward tier. You could finish 5 other instances where you don't need the loot and than go and try to get gettiku. You could also do for example +11 and use your chance and then you finish +12 (higher reward tier) and you can again use your loot chance for that tier (one chance per loot tier per week). Or lets say you did +12 KR and gettiku didnt drop after you used your chance, you do +12 KR again (you found a group for the same key), and you again can use your chance but it would drop +11 item level.

I'm just taking this idea out of top of my head but I do think that there could be some improvements. Anyway, no system is perfect and there are always some pros and cons, the idea is to make as many people happy as possible, not everyone. That's impossible.

[Elbob]

Vault also gives you options if you just did raid boss, no need to actually do M+. its just a bonus option.

Yes I'm aware but your entire comparison is raider vs M+ player, but in reality thats a dishonest comparison cause you are actually doing 2 M+ players where 1 raids and 1 doesn't

8 bosses * 2 items per boss = 16 pieces of loot, almost guaranteed to get one item.
Exactly 80% chance to just drop item - 220. Well you wont be doing all M bosses first week anyways but still fairly high chance to get something.
Then you got another chance from coins
Another chance if someone gets dupe (not first week tho)
And another chance at great vault.

O so we are also assuming full clearing mythic raid week 1... interesting. We should calculate gear acquisition based on something ~5 guilds can do globally? Then correlate that to being the average for all "raiders" against what the average M+ player does? Weird hill to fight on. In a more realistic world a raider will spend 8-12 hours a week progging and you wont see 3/3 mythic raid bonus pool for a month or 2.

Yes, because chance of hitting one item per 100 is exactly 1%. That excludes trinkets as usually raid got OP shit trinks.
And lets not forget about raid trash loot.
There is much much higher chance to hit something useful from raid than M+. Due to sheer amount of garbo loot there.
Plus you can coin what you want from bosses, cant do that from M+ chest. Cant target specific dungeon loot in any way.

Going off bfa for a comparison, average dungeon is 1-2 perfect to very well itemized pieces that you can coin for, raid boss is < 1. You are still more likely to to hit the raid pieces faster with coins because of smaller pools but you also have less access to the high lvl versions of the pieces that come from the end of the raid. (cant coin bosses you arent on but 15's are clearable right away)

Raiders will do these 4 dungeons regardless. Lets be honest here.

What % of raiders will gain more than 1 M+ option? What % of raiders will gain 2+ options from mythic raid within the first 3 weeks? What % of M+ players will participate in some raid content and get a raid option? You can't assume the options that favor you.

[munkeyinorbit]

eh... what?
reducing reward from end of run will not hurt boost sellers, quite the opposite i think, it will lead to more people buying boosts, as PUGS wont take m+ only players due to low gear...

Are you even actually thinking? Of course pugs will take people with only m+ gear. It's only 3 ilvl less than heroic and everyone knows that's too high. There will be less carries because it isn't worth as much.

[Kralljin]

like maybe using the ekstra roll style mechanic here as a deciding factor on which instance you want to get loot. So you finish an instance and than you decide if you want to use your weekly chance for loot at that specific reward tier.

That is basically the weekly chest, except you can now choose from which Instance you want loot and you'd only get one proper item per week from M+.

Again, doesn't work.

I'm just taking this idea out of top of my head but I do think that there could be some improvements.

I stick to what i originally said: M+ is not compatible with lockout based systems, the system is built upon repetition without lockout, raids aren't.

[Khallid]

Also, it is completely incorrect that a +14 dungeon is harder than heroic bosses at the beginning of an expansion.

I can't agree with that. In my experience the highest reward dungeon key has been consistently harder than heroic raid bosses.

It's not that the dungeon itself is inherently more difficult, the issue is obtaining the key. Heroic raid bosses have very lenient enrage timers, so you can kill them while undergeared. But M+ needs to be done fast to upgrade your key, which is less lenient on gear. That's why I'm comparing the higher M+ keys to mythic, not heroic.

[munkeyinorbit]

M+ gear is marginally weaker and you get literally the same reward from the vault for m+ and raiding. What exactly is the issue here?

WRONG.

You only get the same option if you're mythic raiding. A heroic raider will get heroic options. Someone doing the easier than heroic raiding +15 will get mythic ilvl. To be fair, +15 should only give heroic ilvl chest options.