I thought we left the mindset that raiding is better than everything else back in WoD

[kaminaris]

I pointed out that the math you used is flawed because you are considering raiders as a whole rather than dividing them by mythic raiders (an outlier due to being 1% of the population) and heroic raiders (the majority of raiders).

And that is not relevant anyways.

[jellmoo]

It already does and if anything isn't nearly as difficult as mythic raiding. People would shit the bed if it were.

The thing is, people are looking at Mythic Raiding as being massively more difficult than M+, which isn't exactly true. There is additional logistical complexity, absolutely, but that doesn't always trickle down. Random DPS #7 in a Raid handles a rotation and mechanics, but that's about it.

M+ could be tuned to have increased difficulty that would actually require more effort/ability. It would simply be a different dort of difficult.

[kaminaris]

Considering no one was doing 30s, your point is irrelevant.

Don't be mad because you aren't going to be handed gear for doing nothing anymore.

But to play along, I agree that if folks WERE capable of doing 30-39 level keys, 1 item should drop at the end, and it should be 100% random and Mythic raid quality.

But I still think mythic raiding is harder. Find 5 good players to push high keys, is MUCH easier than finding 20 folks to clear Mythic before ilvl takes over. IE after 3-4 months on a current tier.

No one was doing because it was too hard. Mythic raider plebs shouldn't have access to the same gear as people that does 30s as they are clearly worse players, subhumans. And they woundn't need it ayways since mythic raids are easier.

Go ahead find 4 good players and do 30 in time as there are like 30 keys so far done on +30 worldwide. You should get best gear since only 0.0001% of playerbase could have done it.

[Demolished]

yeah, now that they are vastly overgeared from mythic raid and have more corruption than romanian government...
for those people even mythic raid is joke now, but at the begining of tier (and even more so at the begining of expansion) M+15 is not a "joke"...
everyone who ever cleared one without being carried or overgeared knows that...

As a cutting edge mythic raider, doing 15's the first week is not only possible but we literally did them. You can LITERALLY FAIL and you still get rewarded. Timing a 15 might be harder, DOING one is a joke, and always will be. We aren't talking about 5's vs normal, we are talking mythic raid vs mythic 15's. The mythic 15 being done by the same skill level of people, the 15 is easier, it always will be.

[SkagenRora]

Speak for yourself. Raiding with the lads is a good time for me, otherwise I simply wouldn't do it. Hell, it's the only reason I actually came back to BfA at all after being unsubbed for 70% of the expansion

I would never call the people i guilded with back in WoD/Legion (guild died after killing M Gul'dan) "lads" Some of them were pretty horrible to me, But they were a means to an end to get gear, so i stuck around and put up with it. Since raiding is the way to get gear. I have not raided at all in retail since then tho. Getting my gear from M+ nowdays.

[Toybox]

I would never call the people i guilded with back in WoD/Legion (guild died after killing M Gul'dan) "lads" They were pretty horrible to me, But they were a means to an end to get gear, so i stuck around and put up with it. Since raiding is the way to get gear. I have not raided at all in retail since then tho. Getting my gear from M+ nowdays.

I'm sorry you had a bad experience (as believe me, I've had some myself), but there's plenty of good guild experiences to be found out there. I don't know why anyone would do something they don't enjoy just to get gear, though... The point of raiding is to enjoy it, no? The gear just allows you to do more of it/do it at a faster pace. Raiding just for gear alone seems insane to me.

[Spike`]

ya raid heroic is so hard on release day that many say for Blizzard just delete the current Normal Raid and make the Heroic the new normal because of how hard it his

get a gripe, guilds were doing full heroic on the first day or just leaving the last 1 ou 2, in the contrary people were strungling to do +10 in the first 2 weeks, let alone +15.

try to not look how the +15 looks now (easy, overgeared,..) and try to remember on patch days, especially the beginning of the expansion but i know its hard to ask, many have short memory

[Gorsameth]

ya raid heroic is so hard on release day that many say for Blizzard just delete the current Normal Raid and make the Heroic the new normal because of how hard it his

get a gripe, guilds were doing full heroic on the first day or just leaving the last 1 ou 2, in the contrary people were strungling to do +10 in the first 2 weeks, let alone +15.

try to not look how the +15 looks now (easy, overgeared,..) and try to remember on patch days, especially the beginning of the expansion but i know its hard to ask, many have short memory

The guilds clearing Heroic in 1-2 weeks are not "Heroic" guilds, they are either full fledged Mythic guilds or 'Heroic' guilds that don't have 20 people to do Mythic with. The difficulty isn't balanced around them.

As I often say. Look at how shit the average player is, then realise half of the players are worse.

[Lolites]

As a cutting edge mythic raider, doing 15's the first week is not only possible but we literally did them. You can LITERALLY FAIL and you still get rewarded. Timing a 15 might be harder, DOING one is a joke, and always will be. We aren't talking about 5's vs normal, we are talking mythic raid vs mythic 15's. The mythic 15 being done by the same skill level of people, the 15 is easier, it always will be.

im sorry, are people around here hetting hardon from misinterpreting and twisting words of others?!

i never said +15 is on equal level of dificulty as mythic raid, actualy quite often in my other comments i said its roughly on hc level of dificulty...
i simply said ANY content is easy if you overgear it...

as for doing M+15 first week on season one, i kind of doubt that, as you would have to time +14 to even get key, and world first timed +15 was done on 16.9. so 11 days after begining of season1 and that was BARELY in time, so i kind of doubt you were timing +14 previous week...
but if you did, good for you, still not something a vast majority of people doing keys would consider "joke"

[agentsi]

Again, that's not the argument. It has nothing to do with Raiding vs M+ as it exists now. It isn't about just adding top gear to the current M+ loot.

The idea is to adjust M+ in both difficulty and rewards mechanics, to allow it to be an alternative path for top end gear.

I understand your point, sorry I didn't read it correctly at first, but to be fair if they do this. Then most of the player base who enjoys M+, won't be able to do it.

If an M+10 was as hard as a Mythic raid boss, in terms of mechanics/dps/tanking/healing etc, only the folks with gear/skill would be able to push it. All the folks trying to gear up via only M+ would hit walls, and often. Not to mention the toxicity in the M+ environment would only get worse.

But if we are talking about utopian type of scenarios, then yes, I 100% agree M+ should scale in terms of gear and progression.

But I honestly think Blizzard tries to make dungeons easy, so most of the player base can participate in them. What I mean by that is, imagine the raiders, and M+ players that parse under 74%. They make up over 95% of the parses on warcraft logs, and tons of the other folks who aren't on warcraft logs are even worse dps wise. You would be eliminating the chance for those types of folks to run M+ beyond 2-5s while being at or below the gear level. They'd have to over gear their dungeon, and even then it would be rough for them. We have folks still trying to clear Mythic N'Zoth, even though folks are 485 and full corruption, and they can't. If we brought that level of depth and challenge to m+, it would become another situation where only hardcore players do it. Just like Mythic raiding is now, and people would complain that they want mythic level gear from heroic dungeons so they can start doing M+.

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No one was doing because it was too hard. Mythic raider plebs shouldn't have access to the same gear as people that does 30s as they are clearly worse players, subhumans. And they woundn't need it ayways since mythic raids are easier.

Go ahead find 4 good players and do 30 in time as there are like 30 keys so far done on +30 worldwide. You should get best gear since only 0.0001% of playerbase could have done it.

Alright, so you're just a troll. Being wrong, and glib is just dumb these days on the internet.

If a mythic guild clears a new raid tier within 30 days of its release, they're a highly skilled raid team full of skilled players.

Most guilds cannot clear mythic inside of 3-4 months, let alone 30 days.

[Whiskeyjac]

6-9 ilvls, equivalent of current 10 ilvs. Or 15 ilvls compared to 2 last heroic bosses. It's not our problem you cant see that this is massive nerf.

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By vast majority of players.

That chart shows 25 man was more popular for heroic though even with 10 mans needing half the people. I won't argue ten mans don't have their place in the game but I personally feel like they would serve better as mid patch raids designed as catch up rather then full blown tiers themselves.

[ID811717]

Do you mean that raiders who get chances to loot ilvl 213, ilvl 220 and ilvl 226 gear from multiple sources every week would not quickly outgear someone who decked out in full ilvl 210 gear on day 1 and then gets just a single ilvl 226 piece per week?

Just to be clear, I gave up on making my point immediately in my follow-up post. Because I understood that we're all operating on different assumptions, and none of us will win an argument until we put significant effort into establish those.

You re assuming that the vast majority of PvErs would even get do mythic raiding which is not true.
The vast majority of PvErs however do M+. An average pure raider (by pure I mean no M+) would get 213 ilvl gear from both the heroic raid and the weekly chest.
A pure M+ player (no raid, only mythic plus) would get 210 from M+ and 226 from the weekly chest, in time outgearing the average raider.
If anything the average raider is the one forced to do M+ and not the other way around.

Of course, weekly +14s will drop higher ilvl gear than from HC raid, so many HC raiders will be getting upgrades from it every week. Just as before. And likewise, most decent "non-raiders" will still farm the HC raid (regardless of whether they pug or raid with a casual guild).

The 1-3% who clears mythic getting 226 faster and with slightly more optimal secondaries than you affects you how exactly? The chances of even encoutering such players incredibly often in your activities and being gatekeeped by them is incredibly slim anyway as they tend to only play with their own guild members and understandably so.

You can be world rank 1 on raider.io leaderboards even as a non-raider (or a "HC raider", if you wish). You could see an example of that many times throughout Legion and BfA (two names on top of my mind are: Musclebrah in Legion, and briefly also Ramfam in BfA; but I'm sure people could suggest many more examples like that). You can always see many non-mythic raiders on the very top in the world, even if not rank 1. Very high M+ keys is not a playground that is exclusive to mythic raiders, as it requires an entirely different set of skills, commitment, and experience (not more, not less... just different).

The reason people complain in this thread is because they see Blizzard making small steps in what is perceived the wrong direction. Instead of expanding and improving the loot system for M+ only players (which can be done without adding more chores for raid-only players, e.g. by adding dungeon-only bonus sets), Blizzard pushes them further toward the necessity to raid mythic in order to be competitive in M+. But the top players like the ones I mentioned above are not the ones who are affected the most: they already went through this long journey from casual to the top of the world. They are already very committed to the game, often treating it as a streamer career, so having to raid mythic (on top of the other countless chores of a professional player) does not impact them too much anymore.

I think the most affected players here are the semi-casual ones, the ones that tried pushing beyond +15s, found it fun, and now want to min-max their M+ progress at the expense of other in-game activities (some never raided mythic, others desire to stop raiding mythic just to have more time for M+). It does not matter whether they are at the very start of their M+ journey right now (e.g. 1k score, just got the taste of first timed +15) or been playing M+ for years (e.g. 6k+ score). Regardless of their current experience or commitment level, they see Blizzard's changes as a clear sign that any success at being on top of world rankings as a non-mythic raider will be in spite of the game design, not supported by it.

The 1-3% who clears mythic getting 226 faster and with slightly more optimal secondaries than you affects you how exactly? The chances of even encoutering such players incredibly often in your activities and being gatekeeped by them is incredibly slim anyway as they tend to only play with their own guild members and understandably so.

As for me personally, it concerns me directly. I'm a part of the community that uses raider.io to gatekeep the general population of mythic raiders from high M+ keys, not the other way around. I don't like how the entire M+ ecosystem works, and I don't like how it evolves. But I have resigned to the fact that (1) I had a wild fun ride in M+ over the years, and at some point it will end for one reason or another, and (2) the changes are never as bad as most players make it to be... the players are hurt that Blizzard is openly ignoring their niche playstyle, but the end product will still allow the dedicated non-raiders to establish themselves on top of the world M+ ranks.... it just requires more dedication and pain to achieve that in spite of the game design.

[tangers58]

Not everyone likes to raid all the time... why don't raiders (and apparently the dev team) see that?

Its not a mindset, its a simple fact.

[Zyky]

Not everyone likes to raid all the time... why don't raiders (and apparently the dev team) see that?

What world do you live in? M+ is a thing, but please enlighten me on how much fun world quests are so I can slap you down. The best gear should always come from the hardest content, if you're not willing to invest time and effort, then you shouldn't be rewarded to the same degree as people who do/are.

[Whiskeyjac]

"As I often say. Look at how shit the average player is, then realise half of the players are worse."

Holy shit imagine having an ego this big, I genuinely quivered in cringe reading this

I mean it isn't wrong?

WoW has one of the most massive skill gaps of any online game i've played as it allows pretty constant progression without any real skill checks until the very final stage of progression.

I haven't really played any other online rpg where you just got nearly your best gear by only spamming one skill and equipping all the wrong stats. Now I don't want to be misunderstood. There are a lot of games with worse players overall then wow's but the vast skill gap seen in wow is pretty unique for this genre of game.

[Kokolums]

I mean it isn't wrong?

WoW has one of the most massive skill gaps of any online game i've played as it allows pretty constant progression without any real skill checks until the very final stage of progression.

I haven't really played any other online rpg where you just got nearly your best gear by only spamming one skill and equipping all the wrong stats. Now I don't want to be misunderstood. There are a lot of games with worse players overall then wow's but the vast skill gap seen in wow is pretty unique for this genre of game.

Wow isn't a skill game. It rewards time spent and deep pockets.

In BfA you are willing to spend hours and hours researching the best skills, traits, borrowed powers to select, if you are willing to run maybe King's Rest 20x until your weapon drops, then maybe another 35x runs in mechagon until your rings drop, then another 20x runs in Shrine of the Storm until your trinket drops, if you are a big enough whale to server change a bunch of times to shop for those precious BoEs, if you are willing to spend countless hours in the first couple weeks raiding, sure you can be competing for world firsts.

That's not skill though. Its just an insane grind.

Or in Legion people would run Maw of Souls 100x for AP to get ahead. That's gross.

[Tesshin83]

I still see people actually discussing this as if this is actually a huge problem.

Hardest content should give the highest rewards. Mythic raiding and +15 is not only harder on a pure skill level, as encounters are alot more complex, but you have to factor in the entire logistics of running a guild. Drama, recruitment, organization, etc

You can spam mythic+ and get the chest at the end of the dungeon all day. Heroic bosses are locked for a reset.

Its totally insane that you can then get heroic level gear 10 times a day from mythic+

This only matters the first week. No one cares about the end of the dungeon chest 1 month into the pstch anyway.

[Wries]

My suggestion would be to introduce rolls instead.

Two rolls a week you have in dungeons. Press the button and you get up a mini chest. Choose one of two items. Item level being ADEQUATE to the challenge you just undertook. Rest of the week you're back to crap loot.

Boom you've introduced a weekly lockout system that doesn't suck. I get that "the vault" largely wants to solve the same problem but weekly chests have always ben unintuitive and lame since you feel you should earn a reward when beating the boss and not like a lootbox.

[Kehego]

You are throwing arbitrary numbers without having a damn clue whatsoever. +15 in the beginning was as hard as 25 now. It all boils down to scaling.

+10/+15/+20 doesnt mean a single thing.

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Yep. Remember when 25 dropped better loot and more often yet people still vastly preferred 10 mans?

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100% truth. Literally everything in this post is correct.

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Another one without clue. +15 is a joke NOW that you are ridiculously overpowered. With some scaling blizzard can make +5 impossible to do by decked out players. Was +15 easy at the very start of 8.3? Nope.

a 15 was a joke by the first month of the season tbh.

[agentsi]

I mean it isn't wrong?

WoW has one of the most massive skill gaps of any online game i've played as it allows pretty constant progression without any real skill checks until the very final stage of progression.

I haven't really played any other online rpg where you just got nearly your best gear by only spamming one skill and equipping all the wrong stats. Now I don't want to be misunderstood. There are a lot of games with worse players overall then wow's but the vast skill gap seen in wow is pretty unique for this genre of game.

You're 100% right. That is why any person in a guild that can clear Mythic raid tiers in under 3-4 weeks of release, is a skilled player/guild.

I don't get why folks are so hard up on that, calling them lame or easy or whatever. Parsing 95% plus on Mythic fights isn't easy, and if you can, you're better than average for sure.