Shadowlands PvP Updates

[Recovery]

You're being obtuse. If you want to have a discussion with me try again.

You're complaining about nothing and im giving you valid arguments. If you want to have discussion with me, hit me with some points that actually mean something.

Oh, wait, you cant, can you? That's the reason you generically replied with a "youre obtuse, try again". - you had no valid counter argument. Typical.

[Melodyf]

PvP is complete dead !
What next in the new expansion :
youtube.com/watch?v=g2kLwQpnG28
youtube.com/watch?v=f3YSMcI6Czo
youtube.com/watch?v=g1UGgQekLa8&t=40s


Welcome to SL and PvE abuse again pffffff

[Thelxi]

You're complaining about nothing and im giving you valid arguments. If you want to have discussion with me, hit me with some points that actually mean something.

Oh, wait, you cant, can you? That's the reason you generically replied with a "youre obtuse, try again". - you had no valid counter argument. Typical.

I'm happy to elaborate. You enjoying a small fraction of PvPers having access to the best PvP gear, forcing all but the top of the ladder into PvE to stay competitive, is perfectly fine and a sentiment that you share with many. I don't agree, and that is fine too. This is all subjective opinion.

Now you implying that I don't know that gear was tied to rating many years ago is not something I have time for. You implying I am a casual without access to the best gear in the game one way or the other, and thus should be happy to enter battle with a 30ilvl disadvantage, is also not something I have time for.

So I repeat, if you want to discuss PvP gearing changes with me, grow up and try again.

[Recovery]

I'm happy to elaborate. You enjoying a small fraction of PvPers having access to the best PvP gear, forcing all but the top of the ladder into PvE to stay competitive, is perfectly fine and a sentiment that you share with many. I don't agree, and that is fine too. This is all subjective opinion.

Now you implying that I don't know that gear was tied to rating many years ago is not something I have time for. You implying I am a casual without access to the best gear in the game one way or the other, and thus should be happy to enter battle with a 30ilvl disadvantage, is also not something I have time for.

So I repeat, if you want to discuss PvP gearing changes with me, grow up and try again.

I seriously doubt that the best pvp geared is going to be gated to only people above X rating. Can you link a source where this is expressed as fact? In fact, from what i can tell, upgrading your gear is gated behind covenant progression and has nothing to with rating.

I didnt imply that you didnt know gear was tied to rating, i merely reminded you of the fact.

I didnt imply that you were casual and unable to obtain the gear. What i said was that at the beginning of the expansion (and probably for a quite a few weeks) everyone will be in gear that is 190 or less as that is the base gear.. The only obstacle you have to face for the first couple weeks of the expansion will be time. How much time can you play and make it to the 190 ilvl mark to be competitive when rated unlocks. Everyone will be on the same playing field until rated arena / rbg unlocks. And then, its a race to rating and gear. If youre supposed to be playing at 1800, then your gear will match the other people playing there. if youre supposed to be playing at 2400, the same will apply.

Again, what are you actually complaining about here?

[Melodyf]

Blizzard ,
Simple system !!!! :
Resilience : Each point of resilience would give a player about 1% less damage from the enemy !
For the PVP items : just use WOD system

[Thelxi]

I seriously doubt that the best pvp geared is going to be gated to only people above X rating.

Again, I have zero interest in a semantic argument with you so I'll just cut out and ignore the drivel. What's left is an actually interesting point though we can speculate about.

If you think there is a chance that Blizzard is going to let everyone upgrade CP gear to mythic raiding ilvls, you are again being obtuse or just crazy. They will certainly allow the top of the ladder to do this, but that's it.

Now the question is, what about everyone else? there are two options: the first is to just bluntly gate the final CP gear upgrades behind rating.

The second option is to somehow time-gate the upgrades, which is your assumption, so that low rated ppl/casual/alts do have access to the same upgrades and final gear, but at a slower pace. There is a big problem with this: Blizzard is not going to allow someone like that to invest all their CP in a single piece of gear, upgrading it to mythic levels whenever. They would have to add a second layer of gating to prevent this disaster.

Furthermore, we have BfA precedent that tells us that Blizzard is ok with extreme time-gates eventually leading to heroic-level PvP gear for unranked/low ranked ppl/casuals/alts. If they repeat this generosity, is most likely that for most PvPers, CP gear will eventually upgrade to ~210, and likely stop there.

It's important to realize that despite these changes, ilvl is still the most important factor in PvP gear. Whether it comes from PvE or PvP it doesn't matter. The only thing that has changed is that you absolutely want the item to have vers on it, assuming this is not all a PR joke and they tune the trinket set to be trivial.

[Recovery]

Again, I have zero interest in a semantic argument with you so I'll just cut out and ignore the drivel. What's left is an actually interesting point though we can speculate about.

If you think there is a chance that Blizzard is going to let everyone upgrade CP gear to mythic raiding ilvls, you are again being obtuse or just crazy. They will certainly allow the top of the ladder to do this, but that's it.

Now the question is, what about everyone else? there are two options: the first is to just bluntly gate the final CP gear upgrades behind rating.

The second option is to somehow time-gate the upgrades, which is your assumption, so that low rated ppl/casual/alts do have access to the same upgrades and final gear, but at a slower pace. There is a big problem with this: Blizzard is not going to allow someone like that to invest all their CP in a single piece of gear, upgrading it to mythic levels whenever. They would have to add a second layer of gating to prevent this disaster.

Furthermore, we have BfA precedent that tells us that Blizzard is ok with extreme time-gates eventually leading to heroic-level PvP gear for unranked/low ranked ppl/casuals/alts. If they repeat this generosity, is most likely that for most PvPers, CP gear will eventually upgrade to ~210, and likely stop there.

It's important to realize that despite these changes, ilvl is still the most important factor in PvP gear. Whether it comes from PvE or PvP it doesn't matter. The only thing that has changed is that you absolutely want the item to have vers on it, assuming this is not all a PR joke and they tune the trinket set to be trivial.

I just dont see the problem behind the very best gear being gated behind a rating threshold in the first place .The very best gear in pve is gated behind difficulty as well.

For example if you and i start the pvp season and i soar to 2500 the first week, but you get gated at 1800.. I'm going to start obtaining gear faster than you. This should be expected. If my skill level is 2500+, then gear isnt going to stop me from climbing back to that rating on an alt. The difference in skill between those ratings isnt effected by gear.

If youre gated at 1800, you will be playing against the same level people and the same gear level. Every time you move up in rating, youll get a chance at better gear and play against people that have that chance also.

I just don't find this as big of an issue as you do.

What i find to be a bigger issue is the potential that pvp gear is acquired much more slowly than pve gear is.. Then were all gonna be forced into getting pve gear and only farming the trinkets from pvp. lol

In regards to ilvl being the most important thing.. I dont know if youve realized or not, but the difference between ilvl and content difficulty is no where near what it was in bfa.. If someone has 3 ilvl on you, its not going to be that big of a deal..

It feel like youre talking about difference in gear that wont be a factor until 6 months into the expansion... So, if i start pvping and grinding honor day 1, but you dont even start the game until 3-6 months in, then there might be an issue.. Other than that everyone will move at the same pace at least initially.

[Thelxi]

I just dont see the problem behind the very best gear being gated behind a rating threshold in the first place.

I know you don't, and that's fine. As long as you are at the top of the ladder these changes will let you actually PvP for gear, perhaps even without setting foot in PvE. Great news. You even get a vendor to choose your stats!

For the majority of PvPers though, and also people who wanted to see a level playing field again (not you I know!), this is not good news. It's barely news at all really, since next to nothing has changed for them.

[Recovery]

I know you don't, and that's fine. As long as you are at the top of the ladder these changes will let you actually PvP for gear, perhaps even without setting foot in PvE. Great news. You even get a vendor to choose your stats!

For the majority of PvPers though, and also people who wanted to see a level playing field again (not you I know!), this is not good news. It's barely news at all really, since next to nothing has changed for them.

Okay, so as of right now, in what sources can you get higher than ilvl 190 gear?

[Thelxi]

Okay, so as of right now, in what sources can you get higher than ilvl 190 gear?

M+3 187-200
M+10 204-220
M+15 210-216

World Bosses 207

LFR 187-194
Normal 200-207
Heroic 213-220
Mythic 226-233

So the best PvE gear will be close to ~230 ilvl. You better hope that none of the 233 gear has vers on it.

[Zig Zug]

nah. just been playing the game for 10+ years. are you a software developer?

if so, please tell me why this practice is ok

also, what did you provide to this discussion?

I have also played since the early 2000s. Not a huge deal, or any grounds for a kind of authority, but ok. Nice to see a former veteran player still interested in the development of WoW.

I'm not a developer, but a Project Manager.

Continuous changes to the end product based on user feedback is part of the iterative development process. Like the last 16 years of WoW.

We want it like this - where they're using end user feed back to make software changes before deployment and after. Is it perfect? Nope.

Would you they rather not implement a requested change before launch? Despite the "sky is falling" tone the gaming community likes to take, there's a lot of testing time left. And granted that everyone is working more from home, I wouldn't be too worried.

I can appreciate frustration based on timelines - but nature of the beast.

Discussions on MMO don't really need my input to exist, or be productive. I personally like the change.

Developers and systems designers are human and prone to mistakes (technical and forecasting). And given that this is subjective, artistically driven work - I'm willing to be a bit more forgiving.

[Recovery]

M+3 187-200
M+10 204-220
M+15 210-216

World Bosses 207

LFR 187-194
Normal 200-207
Heroic 213-220
Mythic 226-233

So the best PvE gear will be close to ~230 ilvl. You better hope that none of the 233 gear has vers on it.

According to the chart i looked at (https://www.worldofmoudi.com/gear-it...in-shadowlands)

a +3 gives you 190 ilvl and a 203 in your cache. It is my understanding that as of right now, M+ are dropping 1-2 items MAX, for a group of 5. That seems like pretty slow gearing to me. I feel as though i could farm honor ALOT faster, especially seeing as how you likely have to get a set from heroic dungeons before you can do that +3.

Noone is going to start the game completing +15s or even +10s, so not worried about that, although i will likely start doing one +15 a week to get the cache option once my gear permits the ability to do it comfortably.

Heroic raid offers 213 ilvl gear with the last boss offering 220.. By the time peopel are farming heroic gear, you should already be getting conquest pieces, so im not worried about that.

I just feel like youre applying what gear will look like months into the patch to the beginning of the patch. I just dont see it as gloom and doom like you do.

Noone knows the end ilvl of conquest gear yet. To my knowledge, noone knows for sure what limitations are in place in regards to acquiring the gear.

We will see what i looks like on october 26th.

[Thelxi]

According to the chart i looked at (https://www.worldofmoudi.com/gear-it...in-shadowlands)

a +3 gives you 190 ilvl and a 203 in your cache. It is my understanding that as of right now, M+ are dropping 1-2 items MAX, for a group of 5. That seems like pretty slow gearing to me. I feel as though i could farm honor ALOT faster, especially seeing as how you likely have to get a set from heroic dungeons before you can do that +3.

Noone is going to start the game completing +15s or even +10s, so not worried about that, although i will likely start doing one +15 a week to get the cache option once my gear permits the ability to do it comfortably.

Heroic raid offers 213 ilvl gear with the last boss offering 220.. By the time peopel are farming heroic gear, you should already be getting conquest pieces, so im not worried about that.

I just feel like youre applying what gear will look like months into the patch to the beginning of the patch. I just dont see it as gloom and doom like you do.

Noone knows the end ilvl of conquest gear yet. To my knowledge, noone knows for sure what limitations are in place in regards to acquiring the gear.

We will see what i looks like on october 26th.

Correct, I was looking at M+2. Also M+15 is 210-226 not 216.

I don't know where you saw me applying anything to the start of the patch. I don't really care what the gearing situation looks like for the first few weeks of the expansion tbh, that is small peanuts compared to all this bullshit.

I know you are more optimistic about this system, and to be fair there still are some ways for Blizzard to salvage this, like capping CP upgrades to only ~220 for everyone, tuning the trinket bonus super high and increasing the vers/other stat ratio on PvP gear, but I also know you will think of me when you get clobbered by a mythic raider with 233 weapons/vers gear eventually.

[Rucati]

This seems like a fairly good system to me. Don't really see any issues, and it also solves the issue of insane burst PvE trinkets showing up in arenas (unless of course it's just super insane, but that would likely get nerfed for PvE reasons anyway), so kind of two birds with one stone here.

Of course it's still likely that the best weapons will come from PvE, especially if there are any weapons with procs on them like the bleed weapon from King's Rest, but it seems like for the most part everything else you'll want will be easily attainable through PvP. Now it's just a matter of how long it takes to get a full set I guess.

[Mafic]

This is a good first step for PVP gearing.

But I agree with others we have to see how long it takes to upgrade a full honor set and conquest set to determine how viable PVP gearing will be.

[Recovery]

Correct, I was looking at M+2. Also M+15 is 210-226 not 216.

I don't know where you saw me applying anything to the start of the patch. I don't really care what the gearing situation looks like for the first few weeks of the expansion tbh, that is small peanuts compared to all this bullshit.

I know you are more optimistic about this system, and to be fair there still are some ways for Blizzard to salvage this, like capping CP upgrades to only ~220 for everyone, tuning the trinket bonus super high and increasing the vers/other stat ratio on PvP gear, but I also know you will think of me when you get clobbered by a mythic raider with 233 weapons/vers gear eventually.

I will certainly think of this thread if any gear in pve, beyond reason, is leagues better than what you can get from pvp. Also, i will likely quit the game as i always have when the pvp season sucks and / or is majorly effected by pve.

[InflaterMouse]

Nah, unless you're lucky with a raid tier, you do not have every slot of haste/mastery in raids. What YOU read was "from pve" which is absolutely true, you can do it from raids+mythic plus. But just raids? No, no you can't.

Actually until recently yes, that is how you got top tier gear. Mythic is fairly new to wow and yes you could get all the gear you wanted spec'ed just like you wanted it for a long time and it came from raiding and crafted gear. If you want to discuss the shit system they have now, then maybe no not all classes can but some still can. I am worried you might have misread that so let me be clear - YES you could get gear haste/mastery or what ever talent you wanted from raid gear. So many systems in this game have changed, reforge the gear, buy specific gear, to buying the exact gear you want, back to a RNG system, a pvp/pve meta. We have seen it all but yes, you could at one point gear pretty much any class you wanted like you wanted it.

Further, to enhance the gear you had even if you the secondary stats weren't optimal you could throw 1, 2, 3 sometimes even more gems it it. Also enchants mattered back then for stats. Good bad or indifferent, there was a system in place.