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  1. #21
    Scarab Lord Razorice's Avatar
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    My opinion might be a bit biased, but try Unholy Death Knight.
    It's not too hard or too easy.
    And you get Timmy.

  2. #22
    Sub rogue, warlock, mage, spriest, druids. All have really high skillcaps in pvp.

    Everything is easy in pve.

    Hunters also have a pretty high skillcap in pvp so all those comments saying hunters easy must be referring to pve.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Razorice View Post
    My opinion might be a bit biased, but try Unholy Death Knight.
    It's not too hard or too easy.
    And you get Timmy.
    I second this for melee. I find unholy deathknight just fun enough to not be complex, but also not fury warrior/frost dk/outlaw/assa rogue/dh level of easy/designed for dumb people. I've had a great ride with it. The only problem imo with unholy is that you rely on your tanks to not move enemies out of your DnD, and if you play with pugs, or sanguine... you are gonna hate yourself for ever picking unholy dk.

  4. #24
    Scarab Lord Razorice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soluna View Post
    I second this for melee. I find unholy deathknight just fun enough to not be complex, but also not fury warrior/frost dk/outlaw/assa rogue/dh level of easy/designed for dumb people. I've had a great ride with it. The only problem imo with unholy is that you rely on your tanks to not move enemies out of your DnD, and if you play with pugs, or sanguine... you are gonna hate yourself for ever picking unholy dk.
    Ah yes!
    *Pops fresh DnD*
    *Tank moves the pack*
    /FML

  5. #25
    While there are specs that are pretty objectively simpler or harder, simply based on the mechanics involved, there is a ton of subjectivity involved as well.

    There are specs that I just don't "get". It could be as simple as the resource tracking drives me nuts (Unholy Death Knights just seem like a chore to play because of it), the visuals are so lacking that I lose track of what I did (Aff), or my twitchy fingers just hate pooling resources (Assassination). Easy or hard, they are complex to me.

  6. #26
    Complexity in a vaccum is only half the story. Usually when you play your class you do so in an environment where you worry about more than your rotation and where it has to become second nature. My main is Fury which is an easy rotation, but I also like specs like Elemental and Unholy that are complex enough to remain engaging without dipping into the annoyance of some like Demo or Sub. In fact apart from the silly long opener in raids fights Unholy is IMO one of the most complete and well thought out rotations ever made, varying greatly between single-target, cleave and AOE.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

  7. #27
    Since when do ppl consider dot management complex?

    OP:
    There is probably an objective, mathematical answer to that, first define what you call complex, then rank simcraft apls based on that.

    That being said, I'd say mage has the most competitive community, thus making it the hardest class to be the best at.
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    most of the rioters were racist black people with a personal hatred for white people, and it was those bigots who were in fact the primary force engaged in the anarchistic and lawless behavior in Charlottesville.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Soluna View Post
    Are you a Hunter/DH main and are salty about the guy who said that they were easy to play? Wtf dude, DH and Hunter are literally the most faceroll classes. Yes, affliction and shadow priest, as well as feral are hard because you have to manage dots, something most classes don't do today. Affliction has 3-4 dots to manage, on top of keeping uptime on debuffs on enemies, as well as buffs on themselves that are very punishing if they are dropped in shadowlands, on top of having to decide when to soul drain for 3-4 seconds, and if they interrupt the channel, they lose massive dmg.

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    I am sorry but you cannot expect high skill ceiling with instant cast classes that play from ranged. It's like wanting the cake for display purposes, but also to eat it.
    imagine thinking bar management simulator was complex.

    dot casters are 100% about the UI. refreshing dots in the pandemic window really isn't hard, either, but go off
    I can see you struggling to maintain a 40% uptime on barbed shot on a bm

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Seratox View Post
    Classes I play are extremely complex and have deep, engaging gameplay.

    Classes that tend to kill me are faceroll and can be played with a garage door opener.
    Dude, I am literally maining DH and Hunter and I can assure that they are by far the easiest speccs to play. But honestly, there even is a large have between havoc and both Hunter specs.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Seratox View Post
    Classes I play are extremely complex and have deep, engaging gameplay.

    Classes that tend to kill me are faceroll and can be played with a garage door opener.
    I don't get your comment. He was just stating the truth. DH is extremely easy class to play compared to other.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Carbonade View Post
    I have been thinking of playing a hunter, as i really like the idea of being ranged without casting, i really hate standing still to cast :P But i now have some doubts, because i've read that hunter are a really shallow class, that is easy to play, which really dont fit my needs. I really hate the idea of high skill floor, low skill ceiling, so that you cannot really excel if you put in the time and effort.
    First of all I highly, highly suggest you take everything you hear with a huge grain of salt. There are way too many people who are, frankly, full of shit when it comes to these things, whether it's just being uninformed or trying to be smug or self-fellate in the forums/discord.

    I think it's really down to what you personally like and nobody can enter your head. Complexity is one thing, but will you truly enjoy a class that is convoluted with multiple unnecessary plates to spin? And then, where you are going to use that? If in Mythic Raiding or some such - there are enough challenges as is, without having to needlessly layer more crap on top of that.

    That's why you should pick what you naturally like best yourself, instead of chasing that meaningless "complexity" hype that can quickly turn into annoyance when you find out you don't like the gameplay or your whole house of cards you built crashing down on you, because you can't keep up with everything, while those with half the plates to spin buzz right past you with numbers and fun.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by StillMcfuu View Post
    Sub: Definition of hard to learn, easy to master. Once you get past the weird dance and symbols, mfd, etc gameplay, its a pretty rhythm spec where you keep circling through the same 2 ten key rotations. Its like playing a song on a piano. Its strangely enjoyable, but ultimately once you learn what to play at what time there's no challenge.
    That's right on the money. I disagree whenever someone raises Sub as a complex spec. Yes. difficult in the beginning... but once you get it, you got it, and it gets stale real fast. As opposed to my fire mage, I can't PvE on my sub rogue for very long until I get bored out of my mind. PvP is a different matter alltogether, ofc.

    And speaking of which, pretty much any pet class has a heightened skill cap in PvP - if you choose to go all in on pet control. For that reason, SV hunter might be one of the most complex classes in PvP. Many tools, lots of decision-making, and pet control on top.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    imagine thinking bar management simulator was complex.

    dot casters are 100% about the UI. refreshing dots in the pandemic window really isn't hard, either, but go off
    I can see you struggling to maintain a 40% uptime on barbed shot on a bm
    But it's harder in relation to the rest of the classes. Do you know what ''relative'' means?

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    imagine thinking bar management simulator was complex.

    dot casters are 100% about the UI. refreshing dots in the pandemic window really isn't hard, either, but go off
    I can see you struggling to maintain a 40% uptime on barbed shot on a bm
    One of the issues about skill expression debates is less about the amount of buttons and maintenance and more about the payoff/reward. Sure, refreshing 3 stack Barbed Shots can take a little effort sometimes. Or at least before Corruption-- I only played it up to 8.1 so I can't say if that stayed true or not. But the reward vs. keeping great barbed shot uptime vs. not having good barbed shot uptime was somewhere like a 5-10% dps variance. An Affliction warlock fumbling its dots in the same way tanks the entire spec.

    Again, don't know if that stayed true for .2-3 or SL, but that is worth considering.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Lodravel View Post
    That's right on the money. I disagree whenever someone raises Sub as a complex spec. Yes. difficult in the beginning... but once you get it, you got it, and it gets stale real fast. As opposed to my fire mage, I can't PvE on my sub rogue for very long until I get bored out of my mind. PvP is a different matter alltogether, ofc.

    And speaking of which, pretty much any pet class has a heightened skill cap in PvP - if you choose to go all in on pet control. For that reason, SV hunter might be one of the most complex classes in PvP. Many tools, lots of decision-making, and pet control on top.
    PvP is an entirely different animal, i think it really comes down to the player and not the class. I think all the rogue classes are pretty even in pvp, but where outlaw has extra range (melee and pistol), and assassination has dots to keep up pressure, because sub is priority damage it has a harder time. That and shadow step, I think it invites people to recklessly use it and over-extend. Obviously there are differences in class tool kits but ultimately it's the player.
    I do agree that properly using a pet class adds difficulty.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Soluna View Post
    But it's harder in relation to the rest of the classes. Do you know what ''relative'' means?
    its not relative, though
    you want to believe that it's harder because you're one of those internet dudes that need to denigrate something so they feel good about themselves.

    every single class in this expansion can be played with <6 buttons. I know you're gonna try to add >45 second button cds as "rotational" to attempt to add some bloat but, no, all classes are simple and outside of feral with ror and uvls warlock all classes have been simple

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reivur View Post
    One of the issues about skill expression debates is less about the amount of buttons and maintenance and more about the payoff/reward. Sure, refreshing 3 stack Barbed Shots can take a little effort sometimes. Or at least before Corruption-- I only played it up to 8.1 so I can't say if that stayed true or not. But the reward vs. keeping great barbed shot uptime vs. not having good barbed shot uptime was somewhere like a 5-10% dps variance. An Affliction warlock fumbling its dots in the same way tanks the entire spec.

    Again, don't know if that stayed true for .2-3 or SL, but that is worth considering.
    It was way more than 5-10% dps but go off.
    You can't fumble dots, not with pandemic. Or are you saying that people that forget to press their buttons are a part of your argument cus if you're adding people who are just outright not casting spells, this "my class is harder" debate will be pointless because ofc you will do less damage if you never recast your spells.

    I just want to know if "warlocks who don't reapply dots" is part of the "warlocks are too hard" community. Cus then I can say "i never press kill command" so hunter does no damage and should be taken seriously (spoiler, i shouldn't)

    Every. single. class. is "keep important ability off cd" "keep important debuff on the target" and "press filler when I don't have to do either" with little flair added at the end.
    Last edited by Kehego; 2020-09-20 at 01:54 PM.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    its not relative, though
    you want to believe that it's harder because you're one of those internet dudes that need to denigrate something so they feel good about themselves.

    every single class in this expansion can be played with <6 buttons. I know you're gonna try to add >45 second button cds as "rotational" to attempt to add some bloat but, no, all classes are simple and outside of feral with ror and uvls warlock all classes have been simple

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    It was way more than 5-10% dps but go off.
    You can't fumble dots, not with pandemic. Or are you saying that people that forget to press their buttons are a part of your argument cus if you're adding people who are just outright not casting spells, this "my class is harder" debate will be pointless because ofc you will do less damage if you never recast your spells.

    I just want to know if "warlocks who don't reapply dots" is part of the "warlocks are too hard" community. Cus then I can say "i never press kill command" so hunter does no damage and should be taken seriously (spoiler, i shouldn't)

    Every. single. class. is "keep important ability off cd" "keep important debuff on the target" and "press filler when I don't have to do either" with little flair added at the end.
    The amount of buttons you push isnt what makes a spec hard.

    You could have 20 buttons but if all you had to do was push them in the same order each time it wouldnt be harder then a spec with 2 buttons.

    The reason dot management classes stick out is because they have to react to several different dots on timers instead of following a set rotation or a priority system.

    It also gets progressively more managey in multi target situations compared to most classes who just either use their normal rotation or use an aoe spell instead.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    The amount of buttons you push isnt what makes a spec hard.

    You could have 20 buttons but if all you had to do was push them in the same order each time it wouldnt be harder then a spec with 2 buttons.

    The reason dot management classes stick out is because they have to react to several different dots on timers instead of following a set rotation or a priority system.

    It also gets progressively more managey in multi target situations compared to most classes who just either use their normal rotation or use an aoe spell instead.
    You do know that all the dot classes have both aoe spells and/or ways to extend dots on several targets right?
    Lmao

    so do you know that warlocks just use cataclysm (which is part of their st) and shadow priests replace flay with sear and their st rotation extends the duration of all dots around the target mob? lol demo warlocks don't even press different spells cus their ST rotation does aoe splash anyway. Mages just single target as fire cus lol ignite, as frost they use blizzard which they do anyway, and as arcane they replace blast with explosion.

    sounds pretty fucking complex ngl /s

  19. #39
    Subtlety Rogue used to be a beautifully complex symphony of timer management, DR management, burst setup, and control

    So of course the class designers fucking ruined it

    Subtlety playstyle in Shadowlands looks improved since BFA and Legion but still nowhere near as amazing as the spec used to be
    Subtlety Rogue was an amazing, incredible, unique, and fun spec prior to Legion and BfA

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  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by shoegazing View Post
    Subtlety Rogue used to be a beautifully complex symphony of timer management, DR management, burst setup, and control

    So of course the class designers fucking ruined it

    Subtlety playstyle in Shadowlands looks improved since BFA and Legion but still nowhere near as amazing as the spec used to be
    "i was op and they balanced me"

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