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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    You do know that all the dot classes have both aoe spells and/or ways to extend dots on several targets right?
    Lmao

    so do you know that warlocks just use cataclysm (which is part of their st) and shadow priests replace flay with sear and their st rotation extends the duration of all dots around the target mob? lol demo warlocks don't even press different spells cus their ST rotation does aoe splash anyway. Mages just single target as fire cus lol ignite, as frost they use blizzard which they do anyway, and as arcane they replace blast with explosion.

    sounds pretty fucking complex ngl /s
    Destro isnt a dot management spec. Affliction is. Mind sear isnt their entire aoe rotation, you still juggle dots. ANd it doesnt extend dots in SL.

    Noone cares about BFA

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    Destro isnt a dot management spec. Affliction is. Mind sear isnt their entire aoe rotation, you still juggle dots. ANd it doesnt extend dots in SL.

    Noone cares about BFA
    you don't really juggle dots because you either play with dark void and dot everything in aoe or you play misery and vt the 2-3 mobs and extend them till the fight is over

    i.e a non issue. mind sear doesnt extend dots, void bolt does (and still does in sl)

    Affliction isn't meta for aoe in M+ but until secondary stats took over it was one of the top 3 raid dps because you could basically do full dps on what, 3-4 mobs?
    Or were you not paying attention during AEP when raids were basically lock/priest? Why? cus they did the most damage with the least amount of effort on the bosses that mattered. Shocking.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    you don't really juggle dots because you either play with dark void and dot everything in aoe or you play misery and vt the 2-3 mobs and extend them till the fight is over

    i.e a non issue. mind sear doesnt extend dots, void bolt does (and still does in sl)
    Void bolt from their 3 min cd you mean?

    You are trolling if you dont go searing nightmare for dungeons as a shadow priest. I assume thats the talent you are talking about. You still have to do vamp touch. And you seem to forget about the affliction/feral specs?

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by StillMcfuu View Post
    I only play 3 classes that I can speak about in extreme detail, but I have all classes at max level. I'll throw the 3 classes I play.

    Rogue: assassination is the hardest, but a lot of people think its the easiest, mainly because its easy to understand but hard to master. There are a lot of skill interplay and getting that last 20% or so damage from the class means making zero mistakes. Drop envenom buff, mistime TB and have to choose between reapplying or getting out another envenom, things like this will kill your DPS.
    Sub: Definition of hard to learn, easy to master. Once you get past the weird dance and symbols, mfd, etc gameplay, its a pretty rhythm spec where you keep circling through the same 2 ten key rotations. Its like playing a song on a piano. Its strangely enjoyable, but ultimately once you learn what to play at what time there's no challenge.
    Outlaw, it's wack a mole with a little priority system. Your performance may also be entirely rng. Its the simplest of the specs and suffers from being improved by tapping your next attack while waiting for the gcd.
    Shaman: enhance: likely still going to be comically easy.
    Ele: the hardest part of ele is not moving. No seriously, don't fucking move an inch, just cast. If you need to move make sure the position you go to requires the fewest steps to get there and that you don't have to move again for as long as possible. This is the hardest spec in the game for 90% of players because of that.
    DK: Unholy, its pretty easy, but can be interesting, you either pool runes, or you set up a window to deal damage and burn runic power, but not let your runes cap... while also not letting your runic power cap... most of your damage is done by your pets anyway though, so great play is rewarded with only a small increase over good play.

    Those are the dps classes I tend to play. Honorable mentions would be frost mage, its got a little flavor, legion arcane was definitely the hardest most rewarding mage spec but it was gutted for bfa, and now in SL its pretty much a one button spec. No really, go look, rotation is spam missiles with a buff up, it makes DH's pretty simple meta window gameplay look like your solving the fucking davinci code.
    In pvp everything just said is in reverse, love the irony. ;>

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    Void bolt from their 3 min cd you mean?

    You are trolling if you dont go searing nightmare for dungeons as a shadow priest. I assume thats the talent you are talking about. You still have to do vamp touch. And you seem to forget about the affliction/feral specs?
    SL isn't out, there's no point talking about the assumed complexity of SL, cus someone will figure out the most efficient tactic and everyone will copy it.
    BFA you literally press dark void sear and void bolt. casting a dot isnt complex, its part of your fucking class

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Carbonade View Post
    Hey good folk of MMOC,

    As you all probably are, i too am looking very much forward to the upcomming shadowlands expansion, and i am currently in the midst off choosing a class to main, which is proving more difficult that i first thought, i havent played since Cata, so i dont know much about how the diffrent classes and specs play out in general, and in both pvp and pve.

    I have been thinking of playing a hunter, as i really like the idea of being ranged without casting, i really hate standing still to cast :P But i now have some doubts, because i've read that hunter are a really shallow class, that is easy to play, which really dont fit my needs. I really hate the idea of high skill floor, low skill ceiling, so that you cannot really excel if you put in the time and effort. So im looking for recommendations for the follow things:

    Which classes have the complex rotation, or are the hardest to master in general and do well, or to put it another way, the hardest to parse well in those logs ? WW monks from what i can read have a pretty unique mechaninc in being punished for using the same spell twice, but this class is completly new to me, so is it just considered harder?.

    Also for pvp, are there any specs that have lots of those harder/high reward abilities, for example looking at the current hunter, they have roar of sacrifice, which seems to completely nullify a mages combustion, which i think would be a pretty cool play (maybe not hard, i dont know, but high reward for sure)


    TL;DR: In shadowlands, which specs are the most complex/hardest to master, and why ?


    Also if you have any recommendations for specs you think would fit my playstyle from the above text, feel free to recommend them

    Thanks all, hope to have a good discussion
    i have all classes on max level (mostly pvp / m+ perspective), i didn't play beta just tested all classes on PTR. Keep in mind the classes today are no way near the complexity of MoP/Cata.
    Most specs are easier to play now, there are a few left what i think have the highest skill ceiling & rewarding abilities in pvp.

    Here is my list:

    feral druid : complex rotation, rewarding utility (thorns, stuns, clone, roots, offheals, knockback or vortex (talented))

    sub rogue: complex rotation, rewarding utility (stuns, blind, vanish, sap, smokebomb, duel, evasion, cloak)

    uh DK: semi complex rotation (3 ressources), rewarding utility (stun, petkick & normal rangekick, grip, simulacrum (copy abilities))

    disc priest: complex rotation (switching between healing through dmg & normal healing, the target management you need as disc is pretty insane but rewarding - you safe alot of mana if healing through dmg which needs to be setup or spend alot with direct healing), rewarding utility (lifegrip, thoughsteel(steels a ability, like sheep from mages), pain sup., barrier)


    few mentions: enhancement shaman, marksman hunter, affli lock

    monk isn't hard it was way better before they reworked the class.

    i would just play whatever you have the most fun with, test the classes when prepatch launches

    wish you all the best for shadowlands!

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    SL isn't out, there's no point talking about the assumed complexity of SL, cus someone will figure out the most efficient tactic and everyone will copy it.
    BFA you literally press dark void sear and void bolt. casting a dot isnt complex, its part of your fucking class
    We have 2-3 weeks tops left with bfa kits. Talking about them is whats pointless.

    Its not an assumption what will be good in dungeons for SP's atm. If you think that you should probably follow the specs a little closer before you assume to judge them

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    We have 2-3 weeks tops left with bfa kits. Talking about them is whats pointless.

    Its not an assumption what will be good in dungeons for SP's atm. If you think that you should probably follow the specs a little closer before you assume to judge them
    so you're going on "what ifs" and I'm going on "what has happened"

    Theory < practice every single time. What has happened in practice is that spriests are no more complex than than you ascribe them to be. You can revisit this conversation when SL goes live, but until then, nah.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    so you're going on "what ifs" and I'm going on "what has happened"

    Theory < practice every single time. What has happened in practice is that spriests are no more complex than than you ascribe them to be. You can revisit this conversation when SL goes live, but until then, nah.
    What ifs? No i'm going off what we know from extensive testing on the beta. We already know how they are going to play and we know some of the talents that will be bis for dungeons.

    You not following the game as it evolves isnt going to change that. Why would anyone start a new alt and then not care about the major changes happening in the next few weeks instead of spending all this time while leveling/gearing understanding what its never going to be like again?

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    What ifs? No i'm going off what we know from extensive testing on the beta. We already know how they are going to play and we know some of the talents that will be bis for dungeons.

    You not following the game as it evolves isnt going to change that. Why would anyone start a new alt and then not care about the major changes happening in the next few weeks instead of spending all this time while leveling/gearing understanding what its never going to be like again?
    because we're talking about what is currently happening
    not what is slated to be

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    because we're talking about what is currently happening
    not what is slated to be
    are, i too am looking very much forward to the upcomming shadowlands expansion, and i am currently in the midst off choosing a class to main,
    Then you are offtopic and should go create a different thread(that noone would join cus who the fuck cares about bfa anymore)

  12. #52
    I don't believe that any class is much harder than another to 'master' right now, most content is difficult because the encounter is challenging or because it requires a high level of awareness. No class is so difficult that it takes your attention away from it noticeably more than another; Every class is just as hard to get literally 100% out of, even if some classes are easier to reach 90% with without much challenge.

    If you have the right mindset, it doesn't matter what you pick. If you pick a hard to learn class then you'll have to spend a few weeks getting used to it, the ceiling isn't massively high for anyone. Just getting good at the game in general is more important.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Zypherz View Post
    I don't believe that any class is much harder than another to 'master' right now, most content is difficult because the encounter is challenging or because it requires a high level of awareness. No class is so difficult that it takes your attention away from it noticeably more than another; Every class is just as hard to get literally 100% out of, even if some classes are easier to reach 90% with without much challenge.

    If you have the right mindset, it doesn't matter what you pick. If you pick a hard to learn class then you'll have to spend a few weeks getting used to it, the ceiling isn't massively high for anyone. Just getting good at the game in general is more important.
    As someone who has mained a DH for some m+ progression i have to disagree.

    There is definitely a difference in what i need to have an eye on as a havoc vs as an affliction warlock

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Mercarcher View Post
    Dot management is unquestionably harder than a 5 button rotation that is the same in single target and aoe (DH) and a 4 button rotation that swaps their filler for a different filler in AoE (Hunter)

    I also play all classes at 120, Still picking my main for shadowlands.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Also, forgot this, Blizzard hates Monks, they are a dumpster class in shadow lands only brought because of their 5% buff.
    Dot management is literally the most predictable possible gameplay. It would have some semblance of complex if dots had a variable duration every cast.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Carbonade View Post
    Hey good folk of MMOC,

    As you all probably are, i too am looking very much forward to the upcomming shadowlands expansion, and i am currently in the midst off choosing a class to main, which is proving more difficult that i first thought, i havent played since Cata, so i dont know much about how the diffrent classes and specs play out in general, and in both pvp and pve.

    I have been thinking of playing a hunter, as i really like the idea of being ranged without casting, i really hate standing still to cast :P But i now have some doubts, because i've read that hunter are a really shallow class, that is easy to play, which really dont fit my needs. I really hate the idea of high skill floor, low skill ceiling, so that you cannot really excel if you put in the time and effort. So im looking for recommendations for the follow things:

    Which classes have the complex rotation, or are the hardest to master in general and do well, or to put it another way, the hardest to parse well in those logs ? WW monks from what i can read have a pretty unique mechaninc in being punished for using the same spell twice, but this class is completly new to me, so is it just considered harder?.

    Also for pvp, are there any specs that have lots of those harder/high reward abilities, for example looking at the current hunter, they have roar of sacrifice, which seems to completely nullify a mages combustion, which i think would be a pretty cool play (maybe not hard, i dont know, but high reward for sure)


    TL;DR: In shadowlands, which specs are the most complex/hardest to master, and why ?


    Also if you have any recommendations for specs you think would fit my playstyle from the above text, feel free to recommend them

    Thanks all, hope to have a good discussion
    Play a druid. That way you can try everything.

  16. #56
    Banned CrawlFromThePit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seratox View Post
    Classes I play are extremely complex and have deep, engaging gameplay.

    Classes that tend to kill me are faceroll and can be played with a garage door opener.
    You just sound like a DH player who wants to believe his class requires skills. What he said is true, just face reality instead of being salty about it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Zypherz View Post
    I don't believe that any class is much harder than another to 'master' right now, most content is difficult because the encounter is challenging or because it requires a high level of awareness. No class is so difficult that it takes your attention away from it noticeably more than another; Every class is just as hard to get literally 100% out of, even if some classes are easier to reach 90% with without much challenge.

    If you have the right mindset, it doesn't matter what you pick. If you pick a hard to learn class then you'll have to spend a few weeks getting used to it, the ceiling isn't massively high for anyone. Just getting good at the game in general is more important.
    Don't even need to look beyond classes, go play some frost DK, then go play unholy. Same class, different specs, night and day. Frost is very blatantly much easier to play, less buttons, less cooldown, less things to keep track of, the rotation is more straight forward while unholy changes based on debuff applications and in pulls you gain a lot from watching the debuff of every enemies and making decisions based on that, frost can literally tab target to anything and it makes zero difference.

    You can apply this to compare several classes and specs. Ultimately it's true that nothing is REALLY complex, everything ends up being pretty easy. But let's say we had a real ranking system from 1 to 10 (10 being hardest) every class in WoW would fit in between 1 and 4, 4 being the "hardest" specs to play but in the realm of all video games they're still pretty easy, and 1 being the braindead specs like havoc DH.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    "i was op and they balanced me"
    "I got stomped by the most complex spec in the history of the game and cried op"

    Unless you got stomped in Cata. Could make an exception to that.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    its not relative, though
    you want to believe that it's harder because you're one of those internet dudes that need to denigrate something so they feel good about themselves.

    every single class in this expansion can be played with <6 buttons. I know you're gonna try to add >45 second button cds as "rotational" to attempt to add some bloat but, no, all classes are simple and outside of feral with ror and uvls warlock all classes have been simple

    - - - Updated - - -
    Looks like you got banned. I guess the way you talk to people, including me, really got you in trouble. Relative actually can be used in this case, as DH which has literally nothing to press aside from spamming a couple of abilities (or BM, or Frost mage, or ret paladin, fury warrior), and is actually even if marginally, easier to play than a shadow priest, an affliction warlock, a destro warlock, and a few other specs.

    Would it be super easy to play for the top players? Yeah duh, but I've played even in top 100 where people were one trick ponies, and could not get used to perform well on other classes (hell even specs), so unless you are a world first raider, a 7k score m+ player, or a rank 1 gladiator, you can keep that silly notion that relative is not a thing to yourself. But the OP is not a godlike player if he is asking that opinion, and he will certainly be challenged more with dot management on multi targets and using his spenders on priority targets while doing mechanics, than let's say funneling dps on a specific target and never swapping target (or only momentarily to assist with some prio dmg) but other than that pressing frostbolt and flurry>ice lance or spamming kill command and cobra shot with your barbed shot proc.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    You do know that all the dot classes have both aoe spells and/or ways to extend dots on several targets right?
    Lmao

    so do you know that warlocks just use cataclysm (which is part of their st) and shadow priests replace flay with sear and their st rotation extends the duration of all dots around the target mob? lol demo warlocks don't even press different spells cus their ST rotation does aoe splash anyway. Mages just single target as fire cus lol ignite, as frost they use blizzard which they do anyway, and as arcane they replace blast with explosion.

    sounds pretty fucking complex ngl /s
    Many ny'alotha fights are spread cleave. We don't talk about using cataclysm or a mind shear on the mobs while fighting fury of N'zoth. If that's the extend of your raiding knowledge, then no wonder you think it's that easy to play dot classes. Also you conviniently not mention affliction, which has multiple dots that they cannot refresh unless it's mass aoe, and these instances are few even in ny'alotha.

    You sound like a really good raider ngl /s

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    "i was op and they balanced me"
    In which expansion was Subtlety Rogue OP? In which content (arena, raid, etc)?

    Do you have ladder or parse data to back up your claim or are you simply bullshitting? Show me the data.
    Subtlety Rogue was an amazing, incredible, unique, and fun spec prior to Legion and BfA

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  20. #60
    Pandaren Monk taishar68's Avatar
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    Just out of curiosity; isn't a complex spec a deterrent to beating high end content?

    I understand that a certain individual, whether they want to be challenged personally, or if they just want to brag, might want to master something complex, but why would any group of players who are trying to beat a common goal want to add layers of complexity in an arena we know to be laser focused on maximizing and optimizing for speed and efficiency?

    I could even see certain groups want that as well; the badge of honor that says "we did what you did, but it was harder", but in the main isn't it more conducive to the team's success if you don't add unnecessary busy work to the mix?
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