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  1. #201
    We just went another week with almost no tuning. On top of that, they even came up with new Covenant abilities - a month prior to launch.

    This system is by no means ready to be live end of October.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nite92 View Post
    So you do agree that tier sets are borrowed power? Thanks. Never claimed anything else.
    Tier sets don’t make or break your class. Artifacts did, Azerite did. and Covenants (with all the implications) will.
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  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Mightytasty View Post
    Probably Cata
    Than you clearly rember game wrong. Becouse cata had plenty of unbalanced classes just like any other expansion.

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    We just went another week with almost no tuning. On top of that, they even came up with new Covenant abilities - a month prior to launch.

    This system is by no means ready to be live end of October.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Tier sets don’t make or break your class. Artifacts did, Azerite did. and Covenants (with all the implications) will.
    Yes, which is why tier sets are a good borrowed power system and served as excellent tuning knobs.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Nite92 View Post
    Yes, which is why tier sets are a good borrowed power system and served as excellent tuning knobs.
    I haven’t followed the entire discussion when I quoted you, I just wanted to point out the difference. Hence, I agree with you about tier sets.
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  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by Gurg View Post
    While im in the same boat as you do, my only issue with balancing during expansion, which will happen for sure, is that a covenant which was previously less appealing pulls ahead due to balancing. Mid patch switch, possibly during progression even, whole gated questline behind it (which is not yet completely implemented on Beta) and Renown catchup makes me feel a bit uneasy. Its unnecessary foot work and time consumption.
    I wouldn't like to see difference in numbers that are testers currently mentioning go Live, 10-15% difference, somewhere even 20% for some classes, depending on dungeon or raid composition.
    That means that stuff is still waaay unbalanced.
    .
    I agree with you about your concerns. They recently significantly nerfed my covenant ability on beta which made me look at other options and realize what a pain this would be on live. I hope if they do major balancing in the weeks after people are already well into levelling their covenants they allow a one off free swap of covenants with the new covenant at the same level of progress and memory of the old covenant erased (ie so you aren't penalised if later you choose to swap back).

  6. #206
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    I am not concerned about balance per se but general flow of the class. Balance can be fixed by just increasing/decreasing numbers based on performance data. But the general flow of the classes cant be changed that easily. Consider fire mages as an example. Fire mage in live is OP because of borrowed powers - the bracer, the trait, trinket and corruption stat bloat.
    If you take those 3 away, their class structure is poor. So very poor that can barely sustain the proc based system. and that's precisely why they suck so bad at Shadowlands. And this can't be fixed by just tuning numbers in beta. A proper redesign of the class was needed to make it less reliant of borrowed power gimmicks.
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  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    Tier sets don’t make or break your class. Artifacts did, Azerite did. and Covenants (with all the implications) will.
    That's not true though, tier bonuses did make or break classes, several times in fact. Now, I loved tier sets and I want them back, and I am not even discussing the term or definition of borrowed power, but tier sets did what you claimed they didn't.

    Even when it comes to gameplay it could alter it just like many of the borrowed powers we had. Many borrowed powers isn't more than stats or passives as well, some times tier bonuses did more than those.
    - Enough prattling. Let them come. We shall grind their bones to dust.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by irollyo View Post
    Sure others have brought this up before but after constantly reading the patch notes each week hoping for change and seeing little to nothing for so many classes just felt the need to vent. I feel as though blizzard is really dropping the ball with classes this expac focusing only on a set few classes which constantly seem to be getting a notable amount of changes and buffs each week while a majority might get one small change which has little to no impact.

    Personally i main a mw monk (took a break a few months ago) but have been eagerly following class changes and patch notes to see how the class has changed and what cool new things i can look forward too. But week after week all i have seen are constant small changes to the same things which include just resting or deleting what they did just the previous week and trying to pass it off like they are actually trying to balance the spec. i know wind walkers and im sure many other classes may feel the same.

    From watching videos ( as i don't have beta) i have also got the general impression that blizzard has largely dropped the ball for covenants and legendaries for a number of specs as well.

    Tldr- blizzard are shit at balancing have made good changes to a few specs busy patting them self on the back while ignoring a number of others.

    Yeah, OP this has been something I've chewed over many times.

    Do you remember when BC was coming out? Lich king, Cata, MoP? When you went to check out the notes it was wild- new things, new mechanics, you were getting more powerful and better at being the hero you are. Now we see absolutely zero changes. There's no reason to be excited for a new expansion other than "yay another raid in a new place." If that's all it takes to make some people happy, i'm very happy for them.

    they're really doing a horrible job with mechanics now. I know they face a lot of problems with the production pipeline especially with the current conditions but this is a core design philosophy issue. Someone should be working on nothing but classes and their mechanics (remember that Ghostcrawler guy?) and someone else should be working on raids (Ion, because it's what he cares about.)

    I would like to see the classes get a full revamp but they wont even fix them inside an expansion anymore because players who are super casual, logging in at each new patch are scared because their "class changes too much." So they decided they wont fix the classes for us who keep their game and its economy thriving, to risk not appeasing people who barely play at all. Again, core philosophy failure.

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post


    I guess you missed when blizzard directly talked about the covenant changes and the direction they chose. To say that blizzard doesn't listen is either pure ignorance or flat out lying.
    Certainly you don't think them talking about it matters, right? They chose to go in an absolutely horrible direction, literally every single player in the beta told them it was a horrible idea and they need to change it, they refused.

    To say that Blizzard listens is either pure ignorance or flat out lying. Or a large amount of stupidity.

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by Great Destiny Man View Post
    Just because specific specs are getting a large volume of changes doesn't mean they're in a good place.

    Balance druids have had LOTS of changes over alpha/beta but the spec is still fairly meh at the minute, especially after the latest build which pushed through nerfs and questionable changes to Lunar Eclipse.

    Number tweaking will continue all the way to S1, I'll certainly keep my options open with alts in case shit hits the fan but it's far too early for doom and gloom.
    Well balance won't ever happen.

    Also it's not even possible to get it that close.

    Finally... Shadowlands has the most complicated system wow has ever had to balance.


    So it won't happen, I can't happen and it's looking harder than ever so be prepared now for a rough one.

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    Tier sets don’t make or break your class. Artifacts did, Azerite did. and Covenants (with all the implications) will.
    Erm yes they absolutely did. Some of them were broken as fuck as late as Legion; for example Arms shot to the top of the charts thanks to its ToS tier bonus which was incredibly powerful and synergistic, while Fury (one of the worst DPS in ToS after they nuked Draught of Souls) shot to the top in Antorus thanks to a tier bonus that more or less completely changed our talent makeup, stat priority and rotation by putting much less emphasis on steady DPS via Raging Blow and far, far more on lining up an absurdly powerful burst window, especially during execute, meanwhile Arms dropped off to the bottom third.

    Having a bad set bonus could mean your spec floundered or prospered in performance and participation, or other things like having a Legendary while other classes did not (hi late BC, Wrath and Cata). I don't like this revisionist history that bad balance that swung per tier/xpack started with modern borrowed power *scare chord*. It was literally always there.
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  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Erm yes they absolutely did. Some of them were broken as fuck as late as Legion; for example Arms shot to the top of the charts thanks to its ToS tier bonus which was incredibly powerful and synergistic, while Fury (one of the worst DPS in ToS after they nuked Draught of Souls) shot to the top in Antorus thanks to a tier bonus that more or less completely changed our talent makeup, stat priority and rotation by putting much less emphasis on steady DPS via Raging Blow and far, far more on lining up an absurdly powerful burst window, especially during execute, meanwhile Arms dropped off to the bottom third.

    Having a bad set bonus could mean your spec floundered or prospered in performance and participation, or other things like having a Legendary while other classes did not (hi late BC, Wrath and Cata). I don't like this revisionist history that bad balance that swung per tier/xpack started with modern borrowed power *scare chord*. It was literally always there.
    Don’t expect these guys to know any of that. Most of the people who complain about balance issues don’t actually raid. They watch streams and hang out in chats and forums. That’s the hobby to them.

    Every legitimate competitive raider knows and accepts that balance is a spinning wheel of fortune that gives and takes and it’s the players’ job to adjust. And that’s part of the fun when a previously trash spec is buffed to op levels.

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by DuskSP View Post
    Well balance won't ever happen.

    Also it's not even possible to get it that close.

    Finally... Shadowlands has the most complicated system wow has ever had to balance.


    So it won't happen, I can't happen and it's looking harder than ever so be prepared now for a rough one.
    Balance in terms of dps number parity isn't really my issue right now. My focus is on how the spec plays and what issues it has vs other classes.

    I'm no FoTM reroller but I'm not a masochist either, I'm not going to force myself to play a spec that both has fundamental design issues and is lagging behind performance wise. Hence why I'm more than likely going to have another class in reserve just in case balance druids get left in the dirt.

  14. #214
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    Can't wait for all the FOTM shadow priests to top meters till 9.1

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Erm yes they absolutely did. Some of them were broken as fuck as late as Legion; for example Arms shot to the top of the charts thanks to its ToS tier bonus which was incredibly powerful and synergistic, while Fury (one of the worst DPS in ToS after they nuked Draught of Souls) shot to the top in Antorus thanks to a tier bonus that more or less completely changed our talent makeup, stat priority and rotation by putting much less emphasis on steady DPS via Raging Blow and far, far more on lining up an absurdly powerful burst window, especially during execute, meanwhile Arms dropped off to the bottom third.

    Having a bad set bonus could mean your spec floundered or prospered in performance and participation, or other things like having a Legendary while other classes did not (hi late BC, Wrath and Cata). I don't like this revisionist history that bad balance that swung per tier/xpack started with modern borrowed power *scare chord*. It was literally always there.
    Quote Originally Posted by sensei- View Post
    Don’t expect these guys to know any of that. Most of the people who complain about balance issues don’t actually raid. They watch streams and hang out in chats and forums. That’s the hobby to them.

    Every legitimate competitive raider knows and accepts that balance is a spinning wheel of fortune that gives and takes and it’s the players’ job to adjust. And that’s part of the fun when a previously trash spec is buffed to op levels.
    I can't fathom how people can come to the conclusion about borrowed power was when balance was screwed. They either didn't play before Legion or they are straight up being dishonest.

    Even in Legion as you point out Jastall tier-sets could be as or even more powerful than legendaries. And through the history of the game tier set bonuses has been unbalanced as hell. Balance will never be "good", just like it never was any "good". And let's not go back to the first 6-8 years of WoW when it was more unbalanced than it has been since modern borrowed power came into the game.
    - Enough prattling. Let them come. We shall grind their bones to dust.

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by Nite92 View Post
    So you do agree that tier sets are borrowed power? Thanks. Never claimed anything else.
    Ofc they are. Anything you lose is borrowed power including gear. But some people are just too blind to it. They see some sort of UI similar to talents and they instanly assume its somehow something completly different becouse of looks of UI.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by MatthewOU2015 View Post
    Can't wait for all the FOTM shadow priests to top meters till 9.1
    While this will probably be true if they nerf SP to the ground I will personally probably stop playing, since there is no other spec that is remotely as fun and well designed as SP.
    Unless they rework like 10 classes in 9.1 which would be ideal to be honest.

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by MatthewOU2015 View Post
    Can't wait for all the FOTM shadow priests to top meters till 9.1
    shadows and WL are bis for progress cuz the last 2 bosses are 2 target cleave, my guild geting the shadows rdy that we had left form zaqul and Queens court porgress and lvling them same for the locks we go ~4x4 on them if nothig changes balance wise for tier 9.0 ill play lock/shadow too cuz my balance druid does 20% less dps than them, i would say perfect balanced game
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  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    And let's not go back to the first 6-8 years of WoW when it was more unbalanced than it has been since modern borrowed power came into the game.
    6-8 years?
    You do realize that is the Vanilla - MoP?

    That's a big claim, especially in the light of early Legion Legendaries and Corruption.

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by Feral Druid ist Op View Post
    shadows and WL are bis for progress cuz the last 2 bosses are 2 target cleave, my guild geting the shadows rdy that we had left form zaqul and Queens court porgress and lvling them same for the locks we go ~4x4 on them if nothig changes balance wise for tier 9.0 ill play lock/shadow too cuz my balance druid does 20% less dps than them, i would say perfect balanced game
    If they re bis for last 2 bosses then they are not bis becouse that would mean they would excel on all bosses in raid which is not happening so yeah.

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