Incredibly disappointed with class balancing so far

[Grimbold21]

I really hope next xpac they just slap an NDA on beta and people can shut the fuck up until the game releases. It's cancerous how every Avenue of discussing WoW is overrun with this bs. People don't seem to realise that Blizzard are builds ahead of beta with balance changes, they are just farming data for now. Class balance is irrelevant until S1 starts. If you're in beta, give your feedback ingame. If you're not in beta and just parroting what preach or asmongold or any of the 'pushing drama and gloom gets clicks' content creators then do everyone a favour and stfu.

Precendent: an earlier event or action that is regarded as an example or guide to be considered in subsequent similar circumstances.

People don't seem to realise that Blizzard are builds ahead of beta with balance changes, they are just farming data for now. Class balance is irrelevant until S1 starts

And yet, here we are, xpac after xpac, when systems and (some)classes are released in a half decent state.

To continuously argue that such things are solved at a later date is just giving a pass that they shouldn't get in the first place when beta testers consistently report on their respective classes' issues.

[Sarkli83]

What makes you think the classes have ever been balanced? What makes you think it's easy to Balance some 30+ specs alone not to mention all the now continuously added systems to the game? It's never been balanced. There will always be a top spec and bottom spec. To think this will never be the case in an MMO is simply nativity on your part. Other examples of games near impossible to balance: MOBAs, fps like OW some RTS. The more variety added to the game in new heroes, specs, classes, factions the worse the ability to balance the game becomes.

Also, balance brings boredom because if everything is the same then nothing stands out and the game gets stale. Why would you play if every class/spec basically played the same, had the same dps, had similar utilities but just had different names for the abilities? It would be terribly boring for most players because there would be no flavor. They've already given into players over the years with a lot of things and it has not made the game any better.

One last thing. PVE talents should never be adjusted to help balance PVP in WoW. Thats why pvp has its own talents now. Open world is a no holds barge. BG’s should be like the wild wild west. Rated pvp needs to have an equalizer added once you join the instance but then again they did that and people whined and complained.

[newt0n]

I dont think its perfect balance that people seek (not on the surface at least). I think most logical people just don't want a 25% disparity between the worst and best. The smaller that gap, the better. People being able to play the class / spec / covenant they want without having to worry about being exiled from the content they enjoy is a big deal. It is a very difficult task for the developers but these systems are put in place to be tuning nobs, are they not?

[LostLocket]

I dont think its perfect balance that people seek (not on the surface at least). I think most logical people just don't want a 25% disparity between the worst and best. The smaller that gap, the better. People being able to play the class / spec / covenant they want without having to worry about being exiled from the content they enjoy is a big deal. It is a very difficult task for the developers but these systems are put in place to be tuning nobs, are they not?

They are not sadly... these systems carry over across all class and specs making them nearly impossible to balance in any meaningful way. If you have a class that benefits from haste for example and tune down the percentage of haste gained from a conduits that can in turn utterly destroy a healer unrelated to dps balance at all.

The only tuning knobs they have are the same ones they have always had. The classes abilities themselves though now they have tacked on a boat load of scaling issues on top of that to deal with as well. They are also trying desperately to balance utility vs damage.

Right now the same class and same spec can expect anywhere from a 20-40%+ difference in total overall dmg based on how they set up all the new subsystems of SL. It looks as bad as the original scraped version of azerite armor although this is far more layered.

[Beefkow]

Tehy were not core desing of our class and classe feel just fine. Stop mistaking doing high enough dmg with class desing they are 2 completly different things.

I literately just gave you 2 examples that were class design mechanics tied to the artifact weapon, which were lost and baked into talent trees (black claws trait, that was removed). I could literately give 2 shits about being #1 in damage, I want my character to feel good.

2 stacks of sudden doom and 15% higher chance of proccing sudden doom is a huge fucking deal given the RP economy. Black claws added more RNG of popping wounds (which was terrible if you ask me) and it was incredibly satisfying when used on multiple targets with wounds. Popping a wound was a big deal, it was tied to other mechanics depending on the gear that was tied to it like the nighthold tier set.

It did more damage but I gained 3-4 RP which helped in the long run.

[ShiyoKozuki]

It is obvious they will farm the live client of metrics to balance classes and specs. I said as much many times there are not enough people testing in the beta.

So expect to see major changes to classes post launch along with covenants, soul binds and conduits. This will happen obviously before the new season starts but afterwards who knows?

Barely any NA streamer tests beta, while nearly every single EU streamer consistently plays beta every single day. They should re-evaluate who they give beta to after this one, as the NA streamer population is a complete waste of a beta key.

[LostLocket]

Barely any NA streamer tests beta, while nearly every single EU streamer consistently plays beta every single day. They should re-evaluate who they give beta to after this one, as the NA streamer population is a complete waste of a beta key.

I mean why bother?

They had all the info they needed before the beta launched... "Don't make covenants work like this you have never ever balanced anything simple something complex is going to be fucked"

Blizzard didn't heed that wisdom and now we have a month to go and 20-40% dps variance between the exact same spec depending on how they chose their loadout and addons are being tested on beta to show a characters covenant in their nameplate so you know who to blacklist.

I would love for blizzard to fix this but I can't honestly believe there is going to be time for it. Buckle up and batten down the hatches you are about to see community enforced min maxing to level never before dreamed of.

[Nite92]

People don't seem to realise that Blizzard are builds ahead of beta with balance changes, they are just farming data for now.

This exact statement was pushed during the BFA beta regarding azerite armor, and we all know how that turned out.

If you're not in beta and just parroting what preach or asmongold or any of the 'pushing drama and gloom gets clicks' content creators then do everyone a favour and stfu.

Source for that part regarding preach please. From what I have seen he never said anything regarding overpowered classes, on the contrary, he pushes the idea of going for a playstyle you like, because you can never be sure how Blizzard will re-balance classes after the first heroic raid week. What he was saying is that Soulbinds alone are severly unbalanced. This may be tuneable, but Blizzard does not have a good trackrecord of getting the balancing right for borrowed power systems.

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I'm afraid you are unaware of what the term borrowed power means and what it implies. If you don't even understand the basic term in which this entire argument is based around why post at all?

But tier sets are borrowed power, lol?

[Rucati]

Barely any NA streamer tests beta, while nearly every single EU streamer consistently plays beta every single day. They should re-evaluate who they give beta to after this one, as the NA streamer population is a complete waste of a beta key.

In the beginning of the beta every single top player said covenants were horribly designed and needed to be changed. Blizzard doubled down and insisted on doing it their way. Why play the beta past that?

If Blizzard isn't going to listen to your feedback you're wasting your time by playing in the beta. I got beta access a while ago, didn't log on a single time, why would I? So I can see all the issues and spend an hour writing tickets to Blizzard just to be ignored? No thanks.

Honestly the entire idea of a beta is pointless and unnecessary if Blizzard is just going to do their own thing anyway. They should have just released Shadowlands as it was back in June and then maybe fix the game in 9.1.

[Nite92]

To think tier sets are on the same level as Legion/BfA/SL in terms of ''borrowed power'' only shows how dishonest (or dumb) one is about the subject. Again, if you don't know what you are talking about, it's ok to just not respond.

So you do agree that tier sets are borrowed power? Thanks. Never claimed anything else.

[munkeyinorbit]

"Wait for 9.3 to fix the game"

is basically the mantra for blizz these days it seems.

Worked out great in 8.3 right? All this thread is is another "my spec isn't top and it's bullshit" thread. They are posted constantly. If you're not enjoying the game then just move on. I hear there a new diablo game out soon.

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In the beginning of the beta every single top player said covenants were horribly designed and needed to be changed. Blizzard doubled down and insisted on doing it their way. Why play the beta past that?

If Blizzard isn't going to listen to your feedback you're wasting your time by playing in the beta. I got beta access a while ago, didn't log on a single time, why would I? So I can see all the issues and spend an hour writing tickets to Blizzard just to be ignored? No thanks.

Honestly the entire idea of a beta is pointless and unnecessary if Blizzard is just going to do their own thing anyway. They should have just released Shadowlands as it was back in June and then maybe fix the game in 9.1.

I guess you missed when blizzard directly talked about the covenant changes and the direction they chose. To say that blizzard doesn't listen is either pure ignorance or flat out lying.

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I'm afraid you are unaware of what the term borrowed power means and what it implies. If you don't even understand the basic term in which this entire argument is based around why post at all?

You are mistaken. Disagreeing with someone is no cause to completely disregard it. A borrowed power is an increase in power that is temporary. You don't carry on using set bonuses past an expansion and these are usually replaced after each tier. Just because it doesn't fit your narrative doesn't mean it's wrong and according to the accepted meaning of borrowed power tier sets fit. Stop moving the goal posts.

[Nyel]

We just went another week with almost no tuning. On top of that, they even came up with new Covenant abilities - a month prior to launch.

This system is by no means ready to be live end of October.

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So you do agree that tier sets are borrowed power? Thanks. Never claimed anything else.

Tier sets don’t make or break your class. Artifacts did, Azerite did. and Covenants (with all the implications) will.

[Elias01]

Probably Cata

Than you clearly rember game wrong. Becouse cata had plenty of unbalanced classes just like any other expansion.

[Nite92]

We just went another week with almost no tuning. On top of that, they even came up with new Covenant abilities - a month prior to launch.

This system is by no means ready to be live end of October.

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Tier sets don’t make or break your class. Artifacts did, Azerite did. and Covenants (with all the implications) will.

Yes, which is why tier sets are a good borrowed power system and served as excellent tuning knobs.

[Nyel]

Yes, which is why tier sets are a good borrowed power system and served as excellent tuning knobs.

I haven’t followed the entire discussion when I quoted you, I just wanted to point out the difference. Hence, I agree with you about tier sets.

[irdsyd]

While im in the same boat as you do, my only issue with balancing during expansion, which will happen for sure, is that a covenant which was previously less appealing pulls ahead due to balancing. Mid patch switch, possibly during progression even, whole gated questline behind it (which is not yet completely implemented on Beta) and Renown catchup makes me feel a bit uneasy. Its unnecessary foot work and time consumption.
I wouldn't like to see difference in numbers that are testers currently mentioning go Live, 10-15% difference, somewhere even 20% for some classes, depending on dungeon or raid composition.
That means that stuff is still waaay unbalanced.
.

I agree with you about your concerns. They recently significantly nerfed my covenant ability on beta which made me look at other options and realize what a pain this would be on live. I hope if they do major balancing in the weeks after people are already well into levelling their covenants they allow a one off free swap of covenants with the new covenant at the same level of progress and memory of the old covenant erased (ie so you aren't penalised if later you choose to swap back).

[Fayenoor]

I am not concerned about balance per se but general flow of the class. Balance can be fixed by just increasing/decreasing numbers based on performance data. But the general flow of the classes cant be changed that easily. Consider fire mages as an example. Fire mage in live is OP because of borrowed powers - the bracer, the trait, trinket and corruption stat bloat.
If you take those 3 away, their class structure is poor. So very poor that can barely sustain the proc based system. and that's precisely why they suck so bad at Shadowlands. And this can't be fixed by just tuning numbers in beta. A proper redesign of the class was needed to make it less reliant of borrowed power gimmicks.

[Doffen]

Tier sets don’t make or break your class. Artifacts did, Azerite did. and Covenants (with all the implications) will.

That's not true though, tier bonuses did make or break classes, several times in fact. Now, I loved tier sets and I want them back, and I am not even discussing the term or definition of borrowed power, but tier sets did what you claimed they didn't.

Even when it comes to gameplay it could alter it just like many of the borrowed powers we had. Many borrowed powers isn't more than stats or passives as well, some times tier bonuses did more than those.

[Boo Radley]

Sure others have brought this up before but after constantly reading the patch notes each week hoping for change and seeing little to nothing for so many classes just felt the need to vent. I feel as though blizzard is really dropping the ball with classes this expac focusing only on a set few classes which constantly seem to be getting a notable amount of changes and buffs each week while a majority might get one small change which has little to no impact.

Personally i main a mw monk (took a break a few months ago) but have been eagerly following class changes and patch notes to see how the class has changed and what cool new things i can look forward too. But week after week all i have seen are constant small changes to the same things which include just resting or deleting what they did just the previous week and trying to pass it off like they are actually trying to balance the spec. i know wind walkers and im sure many other classes may feel the same.

From watching videos ( as i don't have beta) i have also got the general impression that blizzard has largely dropped the ball for covenants and legendaries for a number of specs as well.

Tldr- blizzard are shit at balancing have made good changes to a few specs busy patting them self on the back while ignoring a number of others.

Yeah, OP this has been something I've chewed over many times.

Do you remember when BC was coming out? Lich king, Cata, MoP? When you went to check out the notes it was wild- new things, new mechanics, you were getting more powerful and better at being the hero you are. Now we see absolutely zero changes. There's no reason to be excited for a new expansion other than "yay another raid in a new place." If that's all it takes to make some people happy, i'm very happy for them.

they're really doing a horrible job with mechanics now. I know they face a lot of problems with the production pipeline especially with the current conditions but this is a core design philosophy issue. Someone should be working on nothing but classes and their mechanics (remember that Ghostcrawler guy?) and someone else should be working on raids (Ion, because it's what he cares about.)

I would like to see the classes get a full revamp but they wont even fix them inside an expansion anymore because players who are super casual, logging in at each new patch are scared because their "class changes too much." So they decided they wont fix the classes for us who keep their game and its economy thriving, to risk not appeasing people who barely play at all. Again, core philosophy failure.

[Rucati]

I guess you missed when blizzard directly talked about the covenant changes and the direction they chose. To say that blizzard doesn't listen is either pure ignorance or flat out lying.

Certainly you don't think them talking about it matters, right? They chose to go in an absolutely horrible direction, literally every single player in the beta told them it was a horrible idea and they need to change it, they refused.

To say that Blizzard listens is either pure ignorance or flat out lying. Or a large amount of stupidity.