Page 11 of 17 FirstFirst ...
9
10
11
12
13
... LastLast
  1. #201
    Bloodsail Admiral Skylarking's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Centrelink
    Posts
    1,059
    God I can't wait for covenants to crash and burn so they can scrap this restriction shit

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    Noe of them are sub optimal. Players just cannot handle being a little less powered for any reason ignoring the fact you will still complete the content and still get the same end result on progression.

    It is a choice. Players need to stop acting like you have to have max performance to down content.
    Oi
    yo mate, you er sayin

    "a little less powered"
    "the same end result on progression"

    ayee so sure

    if you only achieve CE 2 shortly before next patch sure

  3. #203
    Seems like a good compromise. It won't require much effort at all if it would turn out that I was unhappy with my choice.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Nnyco View Post
    What? Are we talking about specs or talents here? Nope, so dont bring em up, we are talking about convenants. For crying out loud even the thread title is "Returning to a Covenant is EASY and FAST", so no idea why you brought up respecs. Covenants never had a state where you just could use a tome and change it, ergo it isnt "nerfing" it.
    Convenants are just talents, nothing more. They are part of your spec. For instance some are for damage, some are designed for tanks, some are for PvP and some are for raids and then there the ones that are desigend to be just bad.
    They are talents that takes you a week to respec when you need to and you really, really need to.

  5. #205
    I am Murloc!
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Poland
    Posts
    5,208
    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground View Post
    Why would Blizzard think any of these new abilities should account for more than 5% of your total damage though, that is just bad design.
    Because if they'd account for less than 5%, they'd be completely meaningless and on the level of some random trinket/weapon enchant. Nobody wants that, no matter where they stand on "covenant switching" issue. If you get a new toy, you expect it to do something noticeable, not just sit in your spellbook, forgotten and useless.

    The issue is that differences between Covenants themselves reach double digits, some of them are only "good" in very specific circumstances and some of them are only good for one spec while sucking for the other two. Balance is still a mess and we're 5 weeks away from release.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    Convenants are just talents, nothing more. They are part of your spec. For instance some are for damage, some are designed for tanks, some are for PvP and some are for raids and then there the ones that are desigend to be just bad.
    They are talents that takes you a week to respec when you need to and you really, really need to.
    Worse than that, it's "talents that are cross spec". Imagine being locked to your healing talents while going dps... well, you don't have to, that's what we're getting. Unless you're that lucky class that has the same BiS covenant for all your specs... and content types.
    Last edited by KaPe; 2020-09-22 at 05:18 PM.

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    Because if they'd account for less than 5%, they'd be completely meaningless and on the level of some random trinket/weapon enchant. Nobody wants that, no matter where they stand on "covenant switching" issue. If you get a new toy, you expect it to do something noticeable, not just sit in your spellbook, forgotten and useless.

    The issue is that differences between Covenants themselves reach double digits, some of them are only "good" in very specific circumstances and some of them are only good for one spec while sucking for the other two. Balance is still a mess and we're 5 weeks away from release.
    Worse than that, it's "talents that are cross spec". Imagine being locked to your healing talents while going dps... well, you don't have to, that's what we're getting. Unless you're that lucky class that has the same BiS covenant for all your specs... and content types.
    Pretty much, yes.

  7. #207
    Well I am glad I have a guild that doesn't give a shit about my choices, I would not want to lone wolf this expansion.
    Super Mario Maker 2: Maker ID 8B7-CTF-NMG

    - Sire Denathrius confirmed to have created the Dreadlords.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by dunkl View Post
    agreed, I was looking forward to bumping into players who were members of their covenants, and individuals who were representatives of the realm they've chosen to align themselves with and help.

    it was going to be cool to know there are tons of us out there with unique covenants, aesthetics, conduits, spells, abilities, ect, and that we were all carving out our own path and truly on our own journeys.

    it should be permanent or insanely difficult and challenging and time consuming to switch back.

    we're learning culture's art, it should be an obstacle to leave and come back.

    sigh

    people want everything, including the ability to have everything. they want everything so much, they even want to be able to have the thing they don't currently have nor are currently using, within a second, if they so choose. they want stuff they have and don't have and don't want anything stopping them from getting what they can have and don't have, for even a single moment. if it exists, they want it. I bet if someone took away their ability to want, they'd somehow develop concept and ability of want.
    They want a competitive lobby game where you choose your setup before yo go out and queue for whatever it is you are wanting to do. They don't necessarily want an MMORPG. They just want the MMO part with "competitive" thrown in there somewhere.

    Nothing wrong with that style of play either, especially since Blizzard has been fueling this type of play for awhile now. So i can actually understand that when blizzard takes a step back from that (even if it is a fairly small one like with covenants) its pissing people off.


    Doesn't mean i want to them go back on it though. I think they should lean much harder into it. Covenants should have been permanent or at least much, much harder to switch. Specs should be hard to switch too, though not as much. It would be nice to see some actual uniqueness in player characters in the world rather than standard cookie cutter builds that have been deemed good by the latest spreadsheets. But WoW will probably never be that again. the playerbase couldn't handle it.

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    Noe of them are sub optimal. Players just cannot handle being a little less powered for any reason ignoring the fact you will still complete the content and still get the same end result on progression.

    It is a choice. Players need to stop acting like you have to have max performance to down content.
    And you need to stop acting like everyone likes to play the way you do, and accept that people like different things.

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by Pohut View Post
    They are not conceptually similar. In no way, shape or form. One is a real life disability. Other one is a nothing in a computer game.
    As I said, I chose a ridiculous analogy because it matches the crazy of your earlier statement.
    You are A and can't do B, even though it is necessary for you to do B. And then someone like you says " jUsT dOnt dO B then, eZ Fix."

    Arguing that way is beyond childish and counterproductive.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    So it's just like chosing a class?

    You haven't in any way shown why this would be bad. Just that you don't want the consequences of your choice to affect you.
    I have tried at length to help you understand what this is about. Too much impact is tied to one choice. It's like having to choose an ISP, but it's also forcibly bundled up with utilities, a random streaming service and the supermarkets you are allowed to shop at. It's too much impact for a singular choice . You either wrap your peanut around that or don't, I've tried.

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by LazuOG View Post
    I have tried at length to help you understand what this is about. Too much impact is tied to one choice. It's like having to choose an ISP, but it's also forcibly bundled up with utilities, a random streaming service and the supermarkets you are allowed to shop at. It's too much impact for a singular choice . You either wrap your peanut around that or don't, I've tried.
    Still the same problem. You're arguing with vague terms, but you aren't actually showing any concrete issues.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Nite92 View Post
    I dont know where you get the 50% number. But a soulbind alone can make up to 12-13% according to preach. Which is alot for every raider who cares atleast a little about output.
    A previous poster brought up the 50% number, stating that preach found the difference between "the best and worst" covenant setup would be 50%, for which they still haven't provided said video. As for the 12-13% figure, from what I've seen, every covenant has a soulbind that seems to lean to each of the various roles (i.e. each has a damage/healing/survivability soulbind). The true question is what are the delta's for these combined with your covenant ability, for each set up. If it's universally found that every spec has a large delta between their optimal setups from each covenant, then there's a large issue. If it turns out that these larger percentage deltas are edge cases, then it's not nearly as troubling, in my mind. Keep in mind, some covenant abilities are worth considerably more in different situations (AoE, Cleave, ST, PvP), making it harder to compare one to another.

    I get that a lot of people want to freakout because they are now being put in a position where they can't be "optimal" at all times. But that doesn't mean we should throw around wild claims like a 50% dps difference ;p

  13. #213
    The Lightbringer The-Shan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Somewhere in the Badlands
    Posts
    3,749
    Quote Originally Posted by AlmightyGerkin View Post
    If you have no plan to raid Mythic asap and try to reach gladiator 2.4k asap and be the top 1% kind of thing than go with what convenant you want. May lose some healing/dps not to a great margin.
    I've tested it and that's not true. I've already been denied entry to groups on beta because of the covenant I chose
    thinly veiled high elf thread

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Still the same problem. You're arguing with vague terms, but you aren't actually showing any concrete issues.
    Are you, at this point, seriously asking me to regurgitate the way these systems are going to work? Are you this commited to trolling me, that you would condescend to act like you have no clue what the basis for this dumpster fire of a community disagreement actually is? If so, kudos.

    However, I don't have to deal with your claims of incredulity. Start respecting people you have an argument with and you might learn a thing or two for once.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aphrel View Post
    What players want is to not be playing a suboptimal build.

    What blizz should do is just disconnect the player power aspects from the covenants. Then it will truly become a choice, unlike now when it s only a choice if you don't prioritize preformance.

    If covenants were purely cosmetic id love it.
    100% agreed. Make it take 4 weeks to swap if it's just cosmetic, or hardlock me, even. Just don't leave it the way it is...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dismayxz View Post
    If you don't realize that this is quite true already, why the fuck is your uninformed ass posting on a topic you clearly have no racing horse in or care to even remotely make sure that your info is up-to-date? Yes, with the 'ass' in there (clearly an unforgivable, infractable offense, the end of the world), don't take it too harshly.

    But that's just what it is. People keep saying "NO WAY IS IT THIS BIG LMAO; STOP WHINING ELITIST".

    Meanwhile, Mind Games for Priest = Exists. Skill-capped this thing is fucking insane in PvP. Virtually and literally useless ANYWHERE else.

    Meanwhile, Warriors exist. Two abilities have been tuned massively, one went from very good to "meh/doggo" and the other went from "I have bad performance and am virtually impossible to use in the niche I was designed for" (banner, support) to "I have some performance, but am still fucking horrible to use". All in all, the remaining two included? No big difference anywhere, really. So what's the point of having the "meaningful" choice when none of the abilities are meaningful or even remotely different flavor- or performance wise.

    This system isn't being called out as shit and being driven down the "talent treatment" row for nothing. If you care to actually dig into how useful each ability is and the massive differences in performance on classes even after some of the preliminal beta tuning so far, there's abilities that are still virtually useless, ability gaps on some classes that are wide because of utility (not just easily number-tunable) they offer, compared to how useful (aka not) each utility component on the other options is in an SL setting.

    The entire point of the system in creating "meaningful" choices is null and void and with Blizzard's trackrecord will remain so until the end of the expansion. There was nothing "RPG" about this system to begin with, so the RPG-gung-ho's with their blindfolds on screaming at the top of the lung seriously need to reconsider if they ever actually played one to begin with, before the conception of this system. They can't even and never have been able to create a balance on either the performance or utility scale to not make this system just another talent row with more hassle attached to it. Hence, it makes sense to call for them to scrap it and let future development time until the end of the xpac go into actual RPG components to the covenants, like branching story or actual, unique story paths with your soulbinds.

    Where my faith with Blizzard lacks on tuning and balance, even for the purpose of a system that seemingly tries to break free from that whole nature (and failing gloriously at it), they can make a version of that whole ordeal that at least is remotely functional and works (we're not talking god-tier RPG quality with multiple endings for obvious reasons here. But there's more 'journey' than ending usually anyways, so I want choices that affect the journey to this pre-determined end, especially if I'm lore-wise supposed to bind myself to people on a soul-to-soul basis).
    This. There's dozens of additional examples in the beta that support this.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by The-Shan View Post
    I've tested it and that's not true. I've already been denied entry to groups on beta because of the covenant I chose
    Going to get groups like that. Follows the same pattern with M+

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by themaster24 View Post
    A previous poster brought up the 50% number, stating that preach found the difference between "the best and worst" covenant setup would be 50%, for which they still haven't provided said video. As for the 12-13% figure, from what I've seen, every covenant has a soulbind that seems to lean to each of the various roles (i.e. each has a damage/healing/survivability soulbind). The true question is what are the delta's for these combined with your covenant ability, for each set up. If it's universally found that every spec has a large delta between their optimal setups from each covenant, then there's a large issue. If it turns out that these larger percentage deltas are edge cases, then it's not nearly as troubling, in my mind. Keep in mind, some covenant abilities are worth considerably more in different situations (AoE, Cleave, ST, PvP), making it harder to compare one to another.

    I get that a lot of people want to freakout because they are now being put in a position where they can't be "optimal" at all times. But that doesn't mean we should throw around wild claims like a 50% dps difference ;p
    That different cov abilities are good for different situations is part of the issue though. That means that the gap only grows larger depending on your choice.

    Edit: for balance druids best to worst cov + leggo is currently around 28.6%
    Last edited by Nite92; 2020-09-22 at 10:09 PM.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by Nite92 View Post
    That different cov abilities are good for different situations is part of the issue though. That means that the gap only grows larger depending on your choice.
    It completely comes down to a mentality at this point, and what dictates your choice. If there's no difference in abilities in varying scenarios, then what's the point of having an ability at all? Meaningful choice requires consequences.

    If you only care about what sims say is best, you'll probably just pick what the sims say is best... even though outside of a target dummy scenario, sims do not reflect your performance very well. And ironically enough, people have accepted such disparity in abilities in the past as recently as 8.3. I could regale how my DPS swings 12-15% either way in 8.3 today, but I'll leave that aspect out (however, realize that your DPS will vary regardless of how flawless you execute). Talent choices alone can have >10%variance depending upon the simmed scenario, but in practice there may be no difference or the sim doesn't accurately account for player skill or variance in the encounter. Some choices cannot be accurately simmed because the DPS gains are not something that's easy to calculate, such as how movement abilities are obviously a DPS gain, but calculating that gain is hard. You can even look at logs to see that simmed output disparity can disappear in encounters, and even people using the same build/gear can have drastic performance outputs that way exceed any theoretical DPS variance of Covenant abilities. As a PSA: sims are only a tool, not necessarily an answer, and most people probably use them wrong anyways.

    Without going too far down the rabbit whole, a lot of this conjecture around ability disparity comes down to what people see on the damage meter. However, if people are honest with themselves, there's a lot that goes on in an encounter that doesn't show up as a damage number and may be way more important than your damage output. While what damage you can put out is important, it's not the only thing that matters. This can come from a utility/survival aspect, it could be having a certain player breakdown to focus on different DPS aspects (such as X amount of players are priority target damage while the rest are just cleaving like crazy), it could be a ton of things that where the damage meter at the end doesn't accurate reflect what goes on. Heck, my parses tend to look terrible compared to my normal 95-99% performances on mythic Carapace/N'zoth because I tend to take the crap jobs that don't give parses due to how damage is calculated, but I know full well how important my job is. Some days I wonder if Blizz removed the capability to have an in-game damage meter or collect damage data in logs, would everyone's perception suddenly change even if they changed nothing else?

    Anyways, the whole visible damage argument tends to get used with the min/max aspect, but I still surmise that most people compromise on way more than 10% damage output constantly despite saying they min/max. Everyone has a compromise point, even myself... but I freely admit I have one . Been playing the same character since vanilla clearing all the most difficult raid content since the beginning, and I can tell you right now that my class has been the meta and been the "omg sims say delete your class!" through all of it. If you've ever competed at the world first level, they even compromise a bit because there's only so many hours in the day, but most players don't go to the lengths that are required for world first in terms of min/maxing. I think why people are so up in arms is that Covenant abilities are showing people's true colors: they're forced to make a choice and showing how far their will to min/max actually goes, when in reality they're fine with compromising if everything gets done at the end of the day.

    I'll put in the standard caveat: yes, there are abilities that are still outliers in this regard that do need fixing, because a system like this doesn't work if one Covenant ability is the correct answer for every scenario. You can have little/no faith that Blizz will pull this off, but at that point why are you even playing the game if you don't trust Blizz to create content you might enjoy or balance things enough that the content itself is enjoyable? I will say that I'm confident I'll be able to clear my mythic raids in a timely fashion no matter what Covenants I choose, even if I choose an all-rounder Covenant ability.
    “Society is endangered not by the great profligacy of a few, but by the laxity of morals amongst all.”
    “It's not an endlessly expanding list of rights — the 'right' to education, the 'right' to health care, the 'right' to food and housing. That's not freedom, that's dependency. Those aren't rights, those are the rations of slavery — hay and a barn for human cattle.”
    ― Alexis de Tocqueville

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Still the same problem. You're arguing with vague terms, but you aren't actually showing any concrete issues.
    There aren't any issues. That's why he had to come up with the ridiculous comparison to real life disability. They've got nothing, but blind outrage.

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by Nite92 View Post
    That different cov abilities are good for different situations is part of the issue though. That means that the gap only grows larger depending on your choice.

    Edit: for balance druids best to worst cov + leggo is currently around 28.6%
    1.) There's a philosophical difference between the two groups here. One group sees that as an innate negative, while the other sees it as a positive. To me, there shouldn't be an answers to the question "What is the best covenant?". That should be a decision that you make for yourself, for the most part.

    2.) Best/worst in what context exactly? Beyond that, it's kind of cherry picking to go "If we do the absolute worse options, this is the difference". The reality of it is, people are not going to find themselves in the absolute worst combination. Even if they pick the "worst covenant", what are the chances that they also pick the worst soulbind abilities, the worst conduits, and the worst legendary? Everyone is decrying the covenants themselves, in this incarnation

    3.) For the 12-13/20% references that I've seen floating around, I've yet to see concrete information on what was used to arrive at these data points. I'm not saying people are intentionally being misleading, and cherry picking as I mentioned in my last point, but I would really like to see evidence that these are the actual deltas for the best and the reasonable choices, and not the best and the absolute worst (and potentially only utility) choices.

    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    It completely comes down to a mentality at this point, and what dictates your choice. If there's no difference in abilities in varying scenarios, then what's the point of having an ability at all? Meaningful choice requires consequences.

    If you only care about what sims say is best, you'll probably just pick what the sims say is best... even though outside of a target dummy scenario, sims do not reflect your performance very well. And ironically enough, people have accepted such disparity in abilities in the past as recently as 8.3. I could regale how my DPS swings 12-15% either way in 8.3 today, but I'll leave that aspect out (however, realize that your DPS will vary regardless of how flawless you execute). Talent choices alone can have >10%variance depending upon the simmed scenario, but in practice there may be no difference or the sim doesn't accurately account for player skill or variance in the encounter. Some choices cannot be accurately simmed because the DPS gains are not something that's easy to calculate, such as how movement abilities are obviously a DPS gain, but calculating that gain is hard. You can even look at logs to see that simmed output disparity can disappear in encounters, and even people using the same build/gear can have drastic performance outputs that way exceed any theoretical DPS variance of Covenant abilities. As a PSA: sims are only a tool, not necessarily an answer, and most people probably use them wrong anyways.

    Without going too far down the rabbit whole, a lot of this conjecture around ability disparity comes down to what people see on the damage meter. However, if people are honest with themselves, there's a lot that goes on in an encounter that doesn't show up as a damage number and may be way more important than your damage output. While what damage you can put out is important, it's not the only thing that matters. This can come from a utility/survival aspect, it could be having a certain player breakdown to focus on different DPS aspects (such as X amount of players are priority target damage while the rest are just cleaving like crazy), it could be a ton of things that where the damage meter at the end doesn't accurate reflect what goes on. Heck, my parses tend to look terrible compared to my normal 95-99% performances on mythic Carapace/N'zoth because I tend to take the crap jobs that don't give parses due to how damage is calculated, but I know full well how important my job is. Some days I wonder if Blizz removed the capability to have an in-game damage meter or collect damage data in logs, would everyone's perception suddenly change even if they changed nothing else?

    Anyways, the whole visible damage argument tends to get used with the min/max aspect, but I still surmise that most people compromise on way more than 10% damage output constantly despite saying they min/max. Everyone has a compromise point, even myself... but I freely admit I have one . Been playing the same character since vanilla clearing all the most difficult raid content since the beginning, and I can tell you right now that my class has been the meta and been the "omg sims say delete your class!" through all of it. If you've ever competed at the world first level, they even compromise a bit because there's only so many hours in the day, but most players don't go to the lengths that are required for world first in terms of min/maxing. I think why people are so up in arms is that Covenant abilities are showing people's true colors: they're forced to make a choice and showing how far their will to min/max actually goes, when in reality they're fine with compromising if everything gets done at the end of the day.

    I'll put in the standard caveat: yes, there are abilities that are still outliers in this regard that do need fixing, because a system like this doesn't work if one Covenant ability is the correct answer for every scenario. You can have little/no faith that Blizz will pull this off, but at that point why are you even playing the game if you don't trust Blizz to create content you might enjoy or balance things enough that the content itself is enjoyable? I will say that I'm confident I'll be able to clear my mythic raids in a timely fashion no matter what Covenants I choose, even if I choose an all-rounder Covenant ability.
    Pretty much this.

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    .....
    If you are not severly overperforming or accidentally play a OP class for a raid tier a 10% output disparity would let you sit on the bench almost guranteed. Even though your guild could clear the mythic raid with whatever covs, everyone choosing the 10% worse options can easily add weeks to your progress and you maybe even have to wait for nerfs to be able to clear the raid.

    My main issue is that Covenants offer so much and by not locking soulbinds/abilities behind this choice, many more players could actually choose for the "right" reasons, like I like venthyr due to lore, theme, xmog and side acitvities and not which sim does most damage.

    The thing is, Blizzard always said the will balance stuff properly to make it work. But it NEVER works out. Just look at corruption. But now, if the nerf it you don't only need to get new corruptions, many people also want to change covenants and leave their stuff behind. I am not saying balancing is easy, all I want Blizz to do is to acknowledge that.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •