Page 12 of 17 FirstFirst ...
2
10
11
12
13
14
... LastLast
  1. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by themaster24 View Post
    snip
    Mindgames is the venthyr covenant for disc priest It is like lights wrath in legion.bastion is also strong. The other two are hot trash who barely move hp bars.

    The reason i still play is because there are no other mmorpg with proper raiding both as an experience mechanically or as a game engine. Blizzard knows that and therefore continues to aim for mass short attention spam audience rather than improving long term problems of the design.
    Last edited by Popokolara; 2020-09-23 at 06:59 AM.

  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Still the same problem. You're arguing with vague terms, but you aren't actually showing any concrete issues.
    Go watch the most recent preach video about it, where they tested the same classes and specs against each other with different covenants. 10-15% throughout difference with low level gear that will only widen as gear scales up.

    If covenants launch as they are right now on beta , shit is going to hit the fan.

  3. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by themaster24 View Post
    I've yet to see concrete information on what was used to arrive at these data points.
    Well then look for it. It took me 2 minutes to find that.
    https://www.dreamgrove.gg/beta/

    Quote Originally Posted by themaster24 View Post
    What is the best covenant?
    Just like there wasn't a distinct best legendary for all content in legion for most classes and just like there wasn't a distinc best corruption setup for all content in BFA for most classes? There will always be a generally "best" answer, atleast for some classes.

    Wouldnt it be better to let EVERYONE choose the covenant based on their own thematic liking rather than only people who dont care about dps?

  4. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by Vidhjerta View Post
    And you need to stop acting like everyone likes to play the way you do, and accept that people like different things.
    You don't even know how I like to play. I am simply against hte player entitltment that has ruined the game. Those players would never make it in the real world where they actually have to make choices and sacrifices while not being handed everything.

  5. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    You don't even know how I like to play. I am simply against hte player entitltment that has ruined the game. Those players would never make it in the real world where they actually have to make choices and sacrifices while not being handed everything.
    And how does it feel to create a fake sense of worth based on accepting bad ideas as a measure of tenacity. Miserable and narcissistic?

    Covenant lock design is removing responsibility on how you play and adding it to more passive effects of where you "belong" or what caste name you advertise. I guess you dont like meritocracy then.
    Last edited by Popokolara; 2020-09-23 at 09:11 PM.

  6. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by Nite92 View Post
    Well then look for it. It took me 2 minutes to find that.
    https://www.dreamgrove.gg/beta/
    I did look. All I found was a god awful google docs chart that simply listed what the creators deemed good and bad covenants for each spec.

    The link you provided showcases something very interesting. It indicates that above all, the major damage swings from Balance come from your legendary choice as opposed to your covenant choice (although, they admit they haven't calculated any soulbind abilities yet, which could skew results in any number of directions). This is evidenced by the fact that you see Balance of all things bringing all the covenants up, including necrolords (which is otherwise totally at the bottom). This is also further demonstrated by the fact that Kyrian + Best Leggo (top dps) is around 23% off of the worst Kyrian + Leggo combination. Contrast this with your previous "Best to worst is 28.6%" and suddenly your covenant choice doesn't seem nearly as stark as some people are trying to make it out to be.

    Now, obviously for Balance, necrolord still needs some tuning, as outside of Balance of all things, they are resoundingly the worst covenant choice. However, the other 3 are all within fairly reasonable levels of each other. ~1% for Best Kyrian to Best Venthyr , ~5% for Best Kyrian to Best Night Fae. I'd like to see how this balance plays out for everything with soulbinds added to the mix.



    Just like there wasn't a distinct best legendary for all content in legion for most classes and just like there wasn't a distinc best corruption setup for all content in BFA for most classes? There will always be a generally "best" answer, atleast for some classes.

    Wouldnt it be better to let EVERYONE choose the covenant based on their own thematic liking rather than only people who dont care about dps?
    I wasn't saying a "best" whatever doesn't get crowned. I'm saying, I don't think there should be a definitively correct answer to the question "What is the best covenant?". As in, I personally don't think there should be a correct answer that is dictated by some guide or theorycrafter. Does that mean that won't happen? Of course not. A good portion of the WoW playerbase is rabidly obsessed with being optimized to the Nth degree.

    As for your second portion, I think that's fundamentally a different kind of system. I get that some people do not like what Blizzard is trying to do, but they want you making a decision that impacts how your characters power is represented, in a way that can't be changed on a whim. For players that expect (since it's functioned this way for quite a long time) to be able to adjust anything that influences your performance on the fly, this feels like a landslide of a change.

    As for my personal opinion, I do not think what your propose would be better. I believe the game needs to have more choices like this (especially since this isn't even permanent). I like that decision you make influences how your spec/plays. Now, I don't think situations like Balance Necrolords is ok. I think each choice should have strengths and weaknesses and they should be within reasonable levels of each other. For the most part, it seems like that is generally what's happening. A little tuning (if Blizz actually does it) and I think things will be in a good place.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Go watch the most recent preach video about it, where they tested the same classes and specs against each other with different covenants. 10-15% throughout difference with low level gear that will only widen as gear scales up.

    If covenants launch as they are right now on beta , shit is going to hit the fan.
    Preach also admitted that they're testing wasn't very well done. They also presented no solid information as to what generated that 10-15% difference between the warriors. It's in Preach's best interest to make the case that it's catastrophic, because he's said it to be so from the start, as he despises a system that removes his ability to change on the fly. I could go make a video very similar to Preach and make it show the opposite, because, as stated, his testing was very poorly done. Two different players "just hitting buttons" (Preach's own words) does not indicate hard facts in any way.

    That's not to say that there aren't any balance issues present, but Preach's video (as well as the google doc he linked) showed to me that he's being highly disingenuous to try and prove himself right. At least the people behind the link Nite92 presented presented detailed figures to showcase their data, which allows you to properly analyze the results.

  7. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by Popokolara View Post
    And how does it feel to create a fake sense of worth based on accepting bad ideas as a measure of tenacity. Miserable and narcissistic?

    Covenant lock design is removing responsibility on how you play and adding it to more passive effects of where you "belong" or what caste name you advertise. I guess you dont like meritocracy then.
    I don't accept bad ideas because I don't think they are bad. You are just trying to project your opinion as fact. Between the two of us, I am not the one who is narcissstic.

  8. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    I don't accept bad ideas because I don't think they are bad. You are just trying to project your opinion as fact. Between the two of us, I am not the one who is narcissstic.
    I am supporting my opinion because i believe in it and argument for it. Use words properly and not to make character attacks to support your own. I also did not argue about my own opinion on covenants.

    You literally used people's perceived entitlement on a game system as a value of real life worth and ability to operate. You also responded as if i accused you of consciously supporting bad ideas.

    Ofc you dont think its bad, you think its some kind of meaningful wisdom meta system. Thats the whole point of my ctiticism on you. Do you even understand people.or just flame away?


    Do you even understand the design intent of covenants because you talked about entitlement and ability to operate in real life, drawing an analogy to a system thats designed to shield you by social interactions and reduce the impact of one's own actions inside actual skill testing scenarios.


    Your analogy, if was to be taken seriously works against covenants. But you didnt even respond to my argument just threw the projection accusation but combined it with the opinion as fact one to make a nice smart cocktail but guess what you still need a logical thinking process or it doesnt really work.
    Last edited by Popokolara; 2020-09-24 at 01:27 AM.

  9. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    In other words... damn I picked the wrong one, time to re-roll?
    No. Damn I picked the wrong one. Or maybe its not the wrong one because there is a way to make the covenant choice work to my advantage.

    Also, your abilities to dodge fire has a higher impact on your ability to clear content, than your choice in a covenant.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by themaster24 View Post
    I did look. All I found was a god awful google docs chart that simply listed what the creators deemed good and bad covenants for each spec.

    The link you provided showcases something very interesting. It indicates that above all, the major damage swings from Balance come from your legendary choice as opposed to your covenant choice (although, they admit they haven't calculated any soulbind abilities yet, which could skew results in any number of directions). This is evidenced by the fact that you see Balance of all things bringing all the covenants up, including necrolords (which is otherwise totally at the bottom). This is also further demonstrated by the fact that Kyrian + Best Leggo (top dps) is around 23% off of the worst Kyrian + Leggo combination. Contrast this with your previous "Best to worst is 28.6%" and suddenly your covenant choice doesn't seem nearly as stark as some people are trying to make it out to be.

    Now, obviously for Balance, necrolord still needs some tuning, as outside of Balance of all things, they are resoundingly the worst covenant choice. However, the other 3 are all within fairly reasonable levels of each other. ~1% for Best Kyrian to Best Venthyr , ~5% for Best Kyrian to Best Night Fae. I'd like to see how this balance plays out for everything with soulbinds added to the mix.





    I wasn't saying a "best" whatever doesn't get crowned. I'm saying, I don't think there should be a definitively correct answer to the question "What is the best covenant?". As in, I personally don't think there should be a correct answer that is dictated by some guide or theorycrafter. Does that mean that won't happen? Of course not. A good portion of the WoW playerbase is rabidly obsessed with being optimized to the Nth degree.

    As for your second portion, I think that's fundamentally a different kind of system. I get that some people do not like what Blizzard is trying to do, but they want you making a decision that impacts how your characters power is represented, in a way that can't be changed on a whim. For players that expect (since it's functioned this way for quite a long time) to be able to adjust anything that influences your performance on the fly, this feels like a landslide of a change.

    As for my personal opinion, I do not think what your propose would be better. I believe the game needs to have more choices like this (especially since this isn't even permanent). I like that decision you make influences how your spec/plays. Now, I don't think situations like Balance Necrolords is ok. I think each choice should have strengths and weaknesses and they should be within reasonable levels of each other. For the most part, it seems like that is generally what's happening. A little tuning (if Blizz actually does it) and I think things will be in a good place.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Preach also admitted that they're testing wasn't very well done. They also presented no solid information as to what generated that 10-15% difference between the warriors. It's in Preach's best interest to make the case that it's catastrophic, because he's said it to be so from the start, as he despises a system that removes his ability to change on the fly. I could go make a video very similar to Preach and make it show the opposite, because, as stated, his testing was very poorly done. Two different players "just hitting buttons" (Preach's own words) does not indicate hard facts in any way.

    That's not to say that there aren't any balance issues present, but Preach's video (as well as the google doc he linked) showed to me that he's being highly disingenuous to try and prove himself right. At least the people behind the link Nite92 presented presented detailed figures to showcase their data, which allows you to properly analyze the results.
    Thanks for posting this. This was my point as well.

    Another issue is that some people have invested so much time and emotion into the argument that covenant will be a disaster, that after the launch of Shadowlands, they will look for data with the mindset of proving this point, no matter what the actual result is.

    People in general don't admit their mistakes, its to painful for them.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Popokolara View Post
    Mindgames is the venthyr covenant for disc priest It is like lights wrath in legion.bastion is also strong. The other two are hot trash who barely move hp bars.

    The reason i still play is because there are no other mmorpg with proper raiding both as an experience mechanically or as a game engine. Blizzard knows that and therefore continues to aim for mass short attention spam audience rather than improving long term problems of the design.
    What makes you think that moving bars is the only thing that matters?

  10. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by Zypherz View Post
    Do people really want covenant switching to be instant? You really want to feel the need to HS out of a raid and change covenant after every boss to be optimal?

    I think this is fine, better than I'd hoped. Weekly is enough.
    Instant swapping, like how you can instant swap specializations.

  11. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by Tesshin83 View Post
    No. Damn I picked the wrong one. Or maybe its not the wrong one because there is a way to make the covenant choice work to my advantage.

    Also, your abilities to dodge fire has a higher impact on your ability to clear content, than your choice in a covenant.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Thanks for posting this. This was my point as well.

    Another issue is that some people have invested so much time and emotion into the argument that covenant will be a disaster, that after the launch of Shadowlands, they will look for data with the mindset of proving this point, no matter what the actual result is.

    People in general don't admit their mistakes, its to painful for them.

    - - - Updated - - -



    What makes you think that moving bars is the only thing that matters?
    Quote me where i say that.

  12. #232
    Quote Originally Posted by themaster24 View Post
    Preach's video (as well as the google doc he linked) showed to me that he's being highly disingenuous to try and prove himself right.
    That's not at all the vibe Ive been getting from him. What's in Preach's best interest is to have a good game where Blizzard doesn't repeat the mistakes they've made in the past several expansions.

    Overall what I took away from that video(and literally every other video made by educated wow players deeply familiar with the history of the game) is thar Blizzard is too married to making this idea work, even at the detriment of the overall enjoyment by the players....exactly how they've done with every major system in the past 3-4 expansions.

    I don't see how anyone can look at the historical behaviour amd the reports from the beta and think things will magically be fine. It's NEVER fine until it's too late in the expansion to matter.

    Will it work? Sure. But not as well as it could have if Blizzard had pulled their inflated heads out of their assess and actually listened to their players.
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2020-09-24 at 02:29 AM.

  13. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by LazuOG View Post
    "Everyone who takes this game more serious than me is an elitist min-maxer. Everyone who cares less than me is a scrub."

    Sounds like many of you.

    There are bigger problems than "not being 100% optimal" with this system. It is directly in conflict with how you try to reconcile both the MMO and the RPG aspect. To someone who likes to not be a burden, but also wants to play the covenant he enjoys thematically, this system is a huge burden. A meaningful choice that makes you feel ass no matter what you pick is a shit choice. Theres different iterations of such choices that would fit the game much better.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Stairs do nothing for you because you have a disability? Just stay on the ground floor then. There. Super easy solution to that problem.

    Smart fella, gotta admit.
    Did you seriously just compare an ability choice in a video game to being disabled in real life?

  14. #234
    Problem is, for a lot of the min/max crowd, and the tryhard min/maxers, if they can't change it in 15 seconds between boss pulls, then it's 'TOO HARD'!!!

    <Yawn> Bring on the covenants, please.

    If you can do it in 15 seconds between boss pulls, IT"S NOT A CHOICE people. Just another button to push.

    That's not at all meaningful. But that's what some people want. Just remember it's Blizzard's game to make. If you don't like the game they make, the door that can hit you on the way out is easy to find. We are not the CEO or the Game Designer. We just get to play the game, or not play the game. That is the only choice you really get.

    The playerbase is too divided for Blizzard to get any actual coherent direction from them in 99.9% of cases. Every once in a while they all unite for one night, and tell Blizzard something, and Blizzard does listen on those rare occasions. The rest of the time, much of the playerbase confuses "Blizzard doesn't listen to feedback" with "Blizzard didn't design the game around MY wants!". Similarly "Balance" does not actually mean "My favorite class > ALL"...but many mean exactly that when they're talking about balance.
    Last edited by agm114r; 2020-09-24 at 03:02 AM.

  15. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    You don't even know how I like to play. I am simply against hte player entitltment that has ruined the game. Those players would never make it in the real world where they actually have to make choices and sacrifices while not being handed everything.
    It's a product, fuck your false sense of moral pride.
    When society falls apart, as it always does after events like this year, you'll learn what the word "sacrifice" is really for.

  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    That's not at all the vibe Ive been getting from him. What's in Preach's best interest is to have a good game where Blizzard doesn't repeat the mistakes they've made in the past several expansions.

    Overall what I took away from that video(and literally every other video made by educated wow players deeply familiar with the history of the game) is thar Blizzard is too married to making this idea work, even at the detriment of the overall enjoyment by the players....exactly how they've done with every major system in the past 3-4 expansions.

    I don't see how anyone can look at the historical behaviour amd the reports from the beta and think things will magically be fine. It's NEVER fine until it's too late in the expansion to matter.

    Will it work? Sure. But not as well as it could have if Blizzard had pulled their inflated heads out of their assess and actually listened to their players.
    Preach openly admitted that their data is flawed, but continued to make a video decrying about the numbers created by his own flawed data. He avoids bringing up something like the Balance druid Kyrian/Venthyr/Night Fae situation, where it's pretty well balanced between the three. That's pretty much the definition of being disingenuous. He also has openly said he does not like this system because it removes his ability to adjust on the fly. Yes, it's in his best interest for covenants, as they are, to be seen as horrendous.

    "It's in his best interest to have a good game" What qualifies as good here is absolutely subjective. What's good to preach isn't necessarily good to the next person.

    Your intent isn't necessarily wrong about blizzard being bullish. They do tend to stick to their guns, for better or worse. I, however, disagree that system from the last 3-4 xpacs have been to the detriment of the overall enjoyment of players. BfA? For sure. AA is still a damn mess to this day. Corruptions should have never gone live in the state they were in. Essences were generally fine, barring a few cases of poor thinking on acquisition (or what the essence did for it's acquisition source).

    Outside that, what? WQ? Pretty much dailies 2.0. Something like this is always going to be the in the game, and it's not like they fail hard at anything that dailies wouldn't. Legiondaries? Sure, it could feel awful to get sephuz when you guildie got his BiS legendary. The system wasn't perfect, but, outside of a couple of my hardcore friends, no one else that I know or interacted with during Legion felt the system was a detriment to their enjoyment. Artifacts? Everyone I know loved them. Netherlight? Everyone I knew thought it was pretty neat, although it was a precursor to AA. Overall, everyone I know loved Legion. Of course, that doesn't meant that everyone did love it, but combined with what I saw online and in these forums during Legion, it sure seemed like a vast majority of people did.

    Blizzard isn't perfect by any means. Legiondaries could have been handled better for sure. The bug present that could have made you literally not get more than what, 3 or 4 legendaries, for example, shouldn't have gone live. They also could have started of with a long term acquisition plan. All of BfA could have been handled better, plain and simple lol. For one, they could have properly tested AA (or corruptions) on alpha/beta.

    Lastly, as much as you believe personally that Covenants are a bad idea in their current stat, there are others that believe it's a great idea. The issues with Covenants is that of philosophical difference. Where as AA failed because of what amounts to terrible execution, and Legiondaries frustrated some because they had quite literally no control over it, Covenants are totally within your hands. Some relish having the soft-lock, feeling like you're actually making a meaningful choice that carries weight. Meanwhile, there are others who believe that the semi-permanence makes it the antithesis of choice.

  17. #237
    Quote Originally Posted by agm114r View Post
    Problem is, for a lot of the min/max crowd, and the tryhard min/maxers, if they can't change it in 15 seconds between boss pulls, then it's 'TOO HARD'!!!

    <Yawn> Bring on the covenants, please.

    If you can do it in 15 seconds between boss pulls, IT"S NOT A CHOICE people. Just another button to push.

    That's not at all meaningful. But that's what some people want. Just remember it's Blizzard's game to make. If you don't like the game they make, the door that can hit you on the way out is easy to find. We are not the CEO or the Game Designer. We just get to play the game, or not play the game. That is the only choice you really get.

    The playerbase is too divided for Blizzard to get any actual coherent direction from them in 99.9% of cases. Every once in a while they all unite for one night, and tell Blizzard something, and Blizzard does listen on those rare occasions. The rest of the time, much of the playerbase confuses "Blizzard doesn't listen to feedback" with "Blizzard didn't design the game around MY wants!". Similarly "Balance" does not actually mean "My favorite class > ALL"...but many mean exactly that when they're talking about balance.
    just a reality check fast: what you perceive as the reasoning behind the complains of tryhard min maxers (btw this doesnt make sense you really do not understand the terms you are using) is not at all the reason behind their complaints.

    And the unlocking of the covenants is 100% happening as it is simply a marketing stratagem that has been repeating for years now so your idea of an argument is simply a show of you inability to comprehend an obvious pattern.

  18. #238
    Immortal roahn the warlock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    In your base, killing your dudes
    Posts
    7,522
    Quote Originally Posted by faithbane View Post
    lol what? changing a covenant takes a weekly reset and thats great? so fuck you if you want to do both pvp/pve in the same week or tank/dps? you are only allowed to choose 1 play per week. Great solution!
    Back in my day you had one spec and you were happy with it. God forbid you don't have to spend 30 minutes prepping for a raid because one talent does 2% more dmg.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Popokolara View Post
    just a reality check fast: what you perceive as the reasoning behind the complains of tryhard min maxers (btw this doesnt make sense you really do not understand the terms you are using) is not at all the reason behind their complaints.

    And the unlocking of the covenants is 100% happening as it is simply a marketing stratagem that has been repeating for years now so your idea of an argument is simply a show of you inability to comprehend an obvious pattern.
    Or... Or... it's because RPGs are supposed to have choices in them, and you casuals have all forgotten about the RP part of the RPG
    It was never Hardcore Vs Casual. It was Socialites Vs. Solo players
    Quote Originally Posted by ringpriest View Post
    World of Warcraft started life as a Computer Roleplaying Game, where part of the fun of the game experience was pretending to be your character. Stuff like applying poisons and eating food enhanced the verisimilitude of the experience of playing a fantasy character in another world. Now that game has changed to become a tactical arcade lobby game.

  19. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by Popokolara View Post
    The other two are hot trash who barely move hp bars.
    This one. You imply its bad because it doesnt move hp bars. As if thats the only factor that matters for a healer.

  20. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by agm114r View Post
    Problem is, for a lot of the min/max crowd, and the tryhard min/maxers, if they can't change it in 15 seconds between boss pulls, then it's 'TOO HARD'!!!

    <Yawn> Bring on the covenants, please.

    If you can do it in 15 seconds between boss pulls, IT"S NOT A CHOICE people. Just another button to push.

    That's not at all meaningful. But that's what some people want. Just remember it's Blizzard's game to make. If you don't like the game they make, the door that can hit you on the way out is easy to find. We are not the CEO or the Game Designer. We just get to play the game, or not play the game. That is the only choice you really get.

    The playerbase is too divided for Blizzard to get any actual coherent direction from them in 99.9% of cases. Every once in a while they all unite for one night, and tell Blizzard something, and Blizzard does listen on those rare occasions. The rest of the time, much of the playerbase confuses "Blizzard doesn't listen to feedback" with "Blizzard didn't design the game around MY wants!". Similarly "Balance" does not actually mean "My favorite class > ALL"...but many mean exactly that when they're talking about balance.
    The problem is, once blizzard does something like, come out and straight up say that XYZ is going to happen, players who don't like it continue to kick and scream instead of trying to focus on making work the best it can in that form. That's what Blizzard asked for after saying that they were sticking to the system as is, and wanted detailed feedback about covenant abilities and soulbinds so they could work on balancing them. Which they are still actively doing to this very day, which is kind of unusual for Blizzard. Typically, when we are about a month away from launch, we aren't seeing many changes, yet every week we are seeing balancing going out to wide a variety of classes/specs. Now, the unfortunate way the feedback works, is that only a small amount of people have access to the forum threads.
    Last edited by themaster24; 2020-09-24 at 03:30 AM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •