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  1. #241
    Immortal roahn the warlock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    That's not at all the vibe Ive been getting from him. What's in Preach's best interest is to have a good game where Blizzard doesn't repeat the mistakes they've made in the past several expansions.

    Overall what I took away from that video(and literally every other video made by educated wow players deeply familiar with the history of the game) is thar Blizzard is too married to making this idea work, even at the detriment of the overall enjoyment by the players....exactly how they've done with every major system in the past 3-4 expansions.

    I don't see how anyone can look at the historical behaviour amd the reports from the beta and think things will magically be fine. It's NEVER fine until it's too late in the expansion to matter.

    Will it work? Sure. But not as well as it could have if Blizzard had pulled their inflated heads out of their assess and actually listened to their players.
    What if I don't give a crap what Preach wants, and if Blizzard cared they would hire him?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alcsaar View Post
    Instant swapping, like how you can instant swap specializations.
    So you just want more buttons to push, think about what it is you want. You want a class that just changes on the fly to fully optimized for every fight. This is the thought process that made all the classes so homogenized in the first place and we're FINALLY getting back to a point where everyone feels different. Like it or not, this is blizzard listening to the classic crowd, this will be fun, because you will have lil things that make you special. And, just an fyi, unless your GM is an idiot, no one will care. and if they do, find a new guild dude because seriously, who gives a shit.
    It was never Hardcore Vs Casual. It was Socialites Vs. Solo players
    Quote Originally Posted by ringpriest View Post
    World of Warcraft started life as a Computer Roleplaying Game, where part of the fun of the game experience was pretending to be your character. Stuff like applying poisons and eating food enhanced the verisimilitude of the experience of playing a fantasy character in another world. Now that game has changed to become a tactical arcade lobby game.

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by roahn the warlock View Post
    Back in my day you had one spec and you were happy with it. God forbid you don't have to spend 30 minutes prepping for a raid because one talent does 2% more dmg.

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    Or... Or... it's because RPGs are supposed to have choices in them, and you casuals have all forgotten about the RP part of the RPG
    in all of your posts you do not make arguments apart from: rpg used to stand for something 15 years ago which is not really an argument, including those who designed the system you support, they would not agree with your general mentality, you literally coincide with them on one thing.


    rp does not equate absolutely and only a timed lockdown on ability selection. that is your first fallacy.
    history and the very decleration of the ripcord declare the certainty of the situation. That is your second mistake.
    back in your day is useless for today's age, third strike you are out useless spammer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tesshin83 View Post
    This one. You imply its bad because it doesnt move hp bars. As if thats the only factor that matters for a healer.
    are you discussing specifically the value of those abilities for covenant selection concern?
    I thought you were taking a more general issue with how people enjoy the game. ok let talk about this.


    Their healing is below bad and dissapointing. The dr value of night fae is laughable. They do not currently offer anything else more than this dissapointing performance and are a laughing stock of a choice, similar to many other dead talents for disc.

    They have been examined by different independent but well respected study groups and the conclusion was unanimous. Where would you dissagree?

  3. #243
    Immortal roahn the warlock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Popokolara View Post
    rp does not equate absolutely and only a timed lockdown on ability selection. that is your first fallacy.
    history and the very decleration of the ripcold declare the certainty of the situation. That is your second mistake.
    back in your day is useless for today's age, third strike you are out useless spammer.
    Time to bring back the wrath baby term. Yeah, it does, the timed lockout IS the compromise my dude. This is how it's gonna play out, my warlock will have a neat ability that (in a perfect world) 75% of warlock will not have. That makes me special, and maybe only on 25% of fights. But there it is, I get to be a Ardenwald warlock, my warlock is DIFFERENT, and not just "A warlock with access to 3 specs and 4 subspec-things at all times"

    People need to crack open a DnD book, play the original RPG. If your choices sucked you made a brand new character.
    It was never Hardcore Vs Casual. It was Socialites Vs. Solo players
    Quote Originally Posted by ringpriest View Post
    World of Warcraft started life as a Computer Roleplaying Game, where part of the fun of the game experience was pretending to be your character. Stuff like applying poisons and eating food enhanced the verisimilitude of the experience of playing a fantasy character in another world. Now that game has changed to become a tactical arcade lobby game.

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by roahn the warlock View Post
    Time to bring back the wrath baby term. Yeah, it does, the timed lockout IS the compromise my dude. This is how it's gonna play out, my warlock will have a neat ability that (in a perfect world) 75% of warlock will not have. That makes me special, and maybe only on 25% of fights. But there it is, I get to be a Ardenwald warlock, my warlock is DIFFERENT, and not just "A warlock with access to 3 specs and 4 subspec-things at all times"

    People need to crack open a DnD book, play the original RPG. If your choices sucked you made a brand new character.
    i play dnd since 2005. I am well familiar with the system there.

    you equate the class on the old traditional tabletop
    -wait for it-
    to a class on an mmorpg

    where dnd actually supports great flexibility to choosing your spells depending on the encounter with the rest lockout, and the difficulty is often maleable and never- but never- equibalent to a reflex and numbers game as mythic raiding is.

    your mental ability is laughable at this point

    then you say you are special because of the diversity on builds enforced by the lockout

    you are not only lacking wisdom but also have other insecurities which dominate your judgement.

    oh btw. you still have not made a single
    single
    argument.

    you simply draw comparissons as if that is proof enough with completely different invalid or incompatible systems.

    at this point i will stop replying.
    Last edited by Popokolara; 2020-09-24 at 03:41 AM.

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by themaster24 View Post
    Preach openly admitted that their data is flawed, but continued to make a video decrying about the numbers created by his own flawed data. He avoids bringing up something like the Balance druid Kyrian/Venthyr/Night Fae situation, where it's pretty well balanced between the three. That's pretty much the definition of being disingenuous. He also has openly said he does not like this system because it removes his ability to adjust on the fly. Yes, it's in his best interest for covenants, as they are, to be seen as horrendous.

    "It's in his best interest to have a good game" What qualifies as good here is absolutely subjective. What's good to preach isn't necessarily good to the next person.

    Your intent isn't necessarily wrong about blizzard being bullish. They do tend to stick to their guns, for better or worse. I, however, disagree that system from the last 3-4 xpacs have been to the detriment of the overall enjoyment of players. BfA? For sure. AA is still a damn mess to this day. Corruptions should have never gone live in the state they were in. Essences were generally fine, barring a few cases of poor thinking on acquisition (or what the essence did for it's acquisition source).

    Outside that, what? WQ? Pretty much dailies 2.0. Something like this is always going to be the in the game, and it's not like they fail hard at anything that dailies wouldn't. Legiondaries? Sure, it could feel awful to get sephuz when you guildie got his BiS legendary. The system wasn't perfect, but, outside of a couple of my hardcore friends, no one else that I know or interacted with during Legion felt the system was a detriment to their enjoyment. Artifacts? Everyone I know loved them. Netherlight? Everyone I knew thought it was pretty neat, although it was a precursor to AA. Overall, everyone I know loved Legion. Of course, that doesn't meant that everyone did love it, but combined with what I saw online and in these forums during Legion, it sure seemed like a vast majority of people did.

    Blizzard isn't perfect by any means. Legiondaries could have been handled better for sure. The bug present that could have made you literally not get more than what, 3 or 4 legendaries, for example, shouldn't have gone live. They also could have started of with a long term acquisition plan. All of BfA could have been handled better, plain and simple lol. For one, they could have properly tested AA (or corruptions) on alpha/beta.

    Lastly, as much as you believe personally that Covenants are a bad idea in their current stat, there are others that believe it's a great idea. The issues with Covenants is that of philosophical difference. Where as AA failed because of what amounts to terrible execution, and Legiondaries frustrated some because they had quite literally no control over it, Covenants are totally within your hands. Some relish having the soft-lock, feeling like you're actually making a meaningful choice that carries weight. Meanwhile, there are others who believe that the semi-permanence makes it the antithesis of choice.
    The example of flying that preach brought up where they never delivered on the "better gameplay". Even now Pathfinder is wearing out its welcone.

    Garrisons were a trainwreck followed by the dumpster fire of the Harbor. And lets not forget the abomination of apexis grind.

    Legion legendaries caused tremendous disparity in performance between players for a ridiculously long time, with no ability for the player to influence the RNG until deep into the expansion.

    Order halls and artifacts were hit or miss, with some being deeply amazing and bolstered by existing lore, with others being halfassed...like the hunter lodge.

    Netherlight Crucible was layered RNG that got heavily criticized after the RNG mess of Legendaries.

    Azerite armor was heavily criticized throughout BfA beta, but still went live. Essences are STILL the biggest barrier to alts since they were introduced.

    And now we're on to soulbinds and conduits and covenants. And guess what's going to happen? It's going to launch in a poor state, then not get fixed until 9.2 or 9.3, where blizzard repeats the line of "We learned a lot from......."

    This isn't just about Preach, btw. I only used him as an example because he's well known and he said it well.

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by themaster24 View Post
    I did look. All I found was a god awful google docs chart that simply listed what the creators deemed good and bad covenants for each spec.

    The link you provided showcases something very interesting. It indicates that above all, the major damage swings from Balance come from your legendary choice as opposed to your covenant choice (although, they admit they haven't calculated any soulbind abilities yet, which could skew results in any number of directions). This is evidenced by the fact that you see Balance of all things bringing all the covenants up, including necrolords (which is otherwise totally at the bottom). This is also further demonstrated by the fact that Kyrian + Best Leggo (top dps) is around 23% off of the worst Kyrian + Leggo combination. Contrast this with your previous "Best to worst is 28.6%" and suddenly your covenant choice doesn't seem nearly as stark as some people are trying to make it out to be.

    Now, obviously for Balance, necrolord still needs some tuning, as outside of Balance of all things, they are resoundingly the worst covenant choice. However, the other 3 are all within fairly reasonable levels of each other. ~1% for Best Kyrian to Best Venthyr , ~5% for Best Kyrian to Best Night Fae. I'd like to see how this balance plays out for everything with soulbinds added to the mix.





    I wasn't saying a "best" whatever doesn't get crowned. I'm saying, I don't think there should be a definitively correct answer to the question "What is the best covenant?". As in, I personally don't think there should be a correct answer that is dictated by some guide or theorycrafter. Does that mean that won't happen? Of course not. A good portion of the WoW playerbase is rabidly obsessed with being optimized to the Nth degree.

    As for your second portion, I think that's fundamentally a different kind of system. I get that some people do not like what Blizzard is trying to do, but they want you making a decision that impacts how your characters power is represented, in a way that can't be changed on a whim. For players that expect (since it's functioned this way for quite a long time) to be able to adjust anything that influences your performance on the fly, this feels like a landslide of a change.

    As for my personal opinion, I do not think what your propose would be better. I believe the game needs to have more choices like this (especially since this isn't even permanent). I like that decision you make influences how your spec/plays. Now, I don't think situations like Balance Necrolords is ok. I think each choice should have strengths and weaknesses and they should be within reasonable levels of each other. For the most part, it seems like that is generally what's happening. A little tuning (if Blizz actually does it) and I think things will be in a good place.

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    Preach also admitted that they're testing wasn't very well done. They also presented no solid information as to what generated that 10-15% difference between the warriors. It's in Preach's best interest to make the case that it's catastrophic, because he's said it to be so from the start, as he despises a system that removes his ability to change on the fly. I could go make a video very similar to Preach and make it show the opposite, because, as stated, his testing was very poorly done. Two different players "just hitting buttons" (Preach's own words) does not indicate hard facts in any way.

    That's not to say that there aren't any balance issues present, but Preach's video (as well as the google doc he linked) showed to me that he's being highly disingenuous to try and prove himself right. At least the people behind the link Nite92 presented presented detailed figures to showcase their data, which allows you to properly analyze the results.
    Just wanted to say how good this post of your are. Reflective, sensible and informative. Agree with the preach point too. He has been against it since Blizzcon and it really shows. So it's good that people like you do a real check on the numbers.

    I also agree, some of the big differences between Covenants is not allright and has to be tuned or even changed, and it is crucial that they do get fixed and that asap. But slowly more and more starts to be in line of each other. Tuning is important for many, more than for myself, for me the choice is the most important one.
    - Enough prattling. Let them come. We shall grind their bones to dust.

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by Casperite View Post
    Did you seriously just compare an ability choice in a video game to being disabled in real life?
    I made a ridiculous analogy to respond to a ridiculous statement. I never said disability = covenants in wow, how can you misconstrue this.
    "Just don't do X then." Is an absolute nonsense answer, and will be met with a reply that highlights it's idiocy.

    An analogy between system models is exactly that, an analogy between models. Not more, not less.
    A common analogy nowadays is mentioning how certain patterns in the current US presidency mimic events that lead to the formation of the 3rd Reich. Is it fair then to assume these people think T is literally, in every way, A.H ? Because I don't think so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Just wanted to say how good this post of your are. Reflective, sensible and informative. Agree with the preach point too. He has been against it since Blizzcon and it really shows. So it's good that people like you do a real check on the numbers.

    I also agree, some of the big differences between Covenants is not allright and has to be tuned or even changed, and it is crucial that they do get fixed and that asap. But slowly more and more starts to be in line of each other. Tuning is important for many, more than for myself, for me the choice is the most important one.
    Preach literally said this is not a doomsday video. He wanted to highlight this issue because it got lost in the covenant discussion. He said himself that, due to the sate of beta, he can't give anything else than a ballpark. That ballpark is frightening enough, though, and he wants it to be balanced better. He never said that he wants the "cord to be pulled" because of this.


    The Twitter graph shows drastic power differences between choices that are sold to us like they are to be made without power in mind.
    This chart + the core sentiment that preach tried to get across are extraordinary difficult to accept as being in "5% balance range". Preaches core argument was that the power disparity between covenants, soulbinds, and conduits has a runaway effect. Since gear progression is limited on beta rn, the upper end of the entire scale can not be tested. However, even with the current level of gear progression available already shows that power disparity is going to grow exponentially between certain choices for certain classes.
    If that isn't worrying you four weeks before launch, what will?

    When will people understand that healthy criticism like this is what moves things forward?
    Blind trust is not a gamble you should make when history shows that the scales are skewed.

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by roahn the warlock View Post
    What if I don't give a crap what Preach wants, and if Blizzard cared they would hire him?
    You're missing the point. It's not who says it, but what's being said.

    But to touch on what you said: I doubt Preach would work for Blizzard. However, it's important to point out that Ion did have a real conversation with him. Which says to me that they respect his opinion quite a bit.

    Quote Originally Posted by roahn the warlock View Post
    You want a class that just changes on the fly to fully optimized for every fight.
    That's not it at all. People just don't generally want to have to choose between "What's actually good" and "What I like playing". And the problem is exacerbated by the simple fact that Blizzard has historically NEVER been able to strike this balance until the end of the expansion when it almost doesn't matter, combined with how often Blizzard changes the balance dynamic between patches.

    Which is all not to mention what happens if someone likes to do multiple things on one character: M+ with one set of friends, PVP with another. Then raid on the weekends. Why SHOULDN'T a class be able to perform competitively at all three if the game offers all those game modes? Whether it's "every fight" or just 2-3 times a week, the window of two weeks screws people equally. And for what? So that a handful of what amounts to talents gets artificially inflated in importance? That's just silly!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Just wanted to say how good this post of your are. Reflective, sensible and informative. .
    @themaster24 I actually agree that's it's refreshing to have a conversation with someone rational and articulate, even if we don't share the same views. So in the future, if I seem to be getting a little heated about this topic, know that it's not because I'm angry at you personally. I'm just tired of seeing blizzard screw up the potential the game has to offer.

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    You don't even know how I like to play. I am simply against hte player entitltment that has ruined the game. Those players would never make it in the real world where they actually have to make choices and sacrifices while not being handed everything.
    That is a ridiculous reasoning, and assumes that you approach the game like its your real-life job.

    I strongly doubt anyone else here does that.

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by Vidhjerta View Post
    That is a ridiculous reasoning, and assumes that you approach the game like its your real-life job.

    I strongly doubt anyone else here does that.
    His line of reasoning makes it apparent that many people like him don't care what makes the game better for everyone. Whats most important to them is their vendetta against a certain type of player. Players that fit in this arbitrary framework they create should not be able to play the game in a way they enjoy, and thats all they have going. 5% reasoning, 95% spite.

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by LazuOG View Post
    His line of reasoning makes it apparent that many people like him don't care what makes the game better for everyone. Whats most important to them is their vendetta against a certain type of player. Players that fit in this arbitrary framework they create should not be able to play the game in a way they enjoy, and thats all they have going. 5% reasoning, 95% spite.
    Yeah I drew that conclusion after reading about 10 of his posts on here, what a life to lead...

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by LazuOG View Post
    Preach literally said this is not a doomsday video. He wanted to highlight this issue because it got lost in the covenant discussion. He said himself that, due to the sate of beta, he can't give anything else than a ballpark. That ballpark is frightening enough, though, and he wants it to be balanced better. He never said that he wants the "cord to be pulled" because of this.
    Doesn't matter what he says, when the intention is clearly that he doesn't like the system, balanced or not. He was against even when they announced it, and then we only had mage abilities to work with. But he had already decided then. When you don't want to see the good sides of the coin, then you won't reflect about it either.

    The Twitter graph shows drastic power differences between choices that are sold to us like they are to be made without power in mind.
    This chart + the core sentiment that preach tried to get across are extraordinary difficult to accept as being in "5% balance range". Preaches core argument was that the power disparity between covenants, soulbinds, and conduits has a runaway effect. Since gear progression is limited on beta rn, the upper end of the entire scale can not be tested. However, even with the current level of gear progression available already shows that power disparity is going to grow exponentially between certain choices for certain classes.
    If that isn't worrying you four weeks before launch, what will?
    I am worried, if you read more of my post. I am worried that if they don't fix the outliers that we got on beta atm isn't fixed until launch, then they screwed up. Easy as that. But there are also more balanced stuff in the beta, and you don't talk about those. Some of the legendaries also is contributing to the numbers, but with legendaries you can choose, so you can take that out of the equation.

    So yes, I am worried about tuning. Just because I don't doom and gloom doesn't mean I don't care about the negatives.
    When will people understand that healthy criticism like this is what moves things forward?
    Blind trust is not a gamble you should make when history shows that the scales are skewed.
    You are 100% correct. It's just that balance isn't everything. Tuning the outliers needs to be done, and that before the raid launches, it should even be fixed before the expansion launches. But there will always be some unbalance, and to me that makes the game more rich. But I agree fully that if something is making you do 10k dps instead of 7k just because of your choice, that is not a good thing.
    - Enough prattling. Let them come. We shall grind their bones to dust.

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by roahn the warlock View Post
    What if I don't give a crap what Preach wants, and if Blizzard cared they would hire him?

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    So you just want more buttons to push, think about what it is you want. You want a class that just changes on the fly to fully optimized for every fight. This is the thought process that made all the classes so homogenized in the first place and we're FINALLY getting back to a point where everyone feels different. Like it or not, this is blizzard listening to the classic crowd, this will be fun, because you will have lil things that make you special. And, just an fyi, unless your GM is an idiot, no one will care. and if they do, find a new guild dude because seriously, who gives a shit.
    Yeah, being really bad and excluded from content becuase you happened to pick the covenant that Blizzard nerfs this week is hardly a choice.
    Also, you're now more or less forced to pick the best covenant and not at all able to pick the one that actually sounds fun.

    Also, being able to change woulnd of course not affect you becuase you could just stay with whatever abolity you'd like no matter what. It only impacts players that actually care about doing well in the game and do not want to be carried by others. You defending this is just you being egotistic, nothing else.

    The system is wortless to its core.

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    You defending this is just you being egotistic, nothing else.
    And you hating it and wanting it gone is what then? Considerate and reflective? You saying this to everyone who likes the Covenants shows big disrespect to their opinions.

    You are not any less selfish than others.
    - Enough prattling. Let them come. We shall grind their bones to dust.

  15. #255
    I wonder how people will react when they start hotfixing and nerfing covenants during the raid-release, considering how much they screwed around with the corruption system in the beginning och patch 8.3, its likely that is going to happen again. And people will be angry as a result.

  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    And you hating it and wanting it gone is what then? Considerate and reflective? You saying this to everyone who likes the Covenants shows big disrespect to their opinions.

    You are not any less selfish than others.
    Letting people change when the game requires it would be the best for everyone.
    The ones that want to be locked in can just not change and be a burden to everyone else like they are right now and the ones that actually want to play the game well can do so.

    Everyone wins.

  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    Letting people change when the game requires it would be the best for everyone.
    The ones that want to be locked in can just not change and be a burden to everyone else like they are right now and the ones that actually want to play the game well can do so.

    Everyone wins.
    I don't disagree with what you want or what your opinion is, but those who wants the Covenants to stay as they are will be the ones that plays the game as it is intended. So not egoistic. If we talk about who is making that "egoistic" opinion, that's on Blizzard, not the players.

    And that you say that people can just be locked if they want, and the rest can choose as they want, you really show that you don't understand the argument about choice. If the Covenants are locked right now, that is just as fair for Petty Battler as it is for Max Minimizer because they both got the restriction. If everyone can swap freely, those restrictions are lifted and the choice, being an illusion or not, is gone. That's the number one key argument for Covenants staying as they are.

    So no, many will lose with your option.
    Last edited by Doffen; 2020-09-24 at 04:30 PM.
    - Enough prattling. Let them come. We shall grind their bones to dust.

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    Letting people change when the game requires it would be the best for everyone.
    The ones that want to be locked in can just not change and be a burden to everyone else like they are right now and the ones that actually want to play the game well can do so.

    Everyone wins.
    "But my choices need to matter! This is an rpg". As if WoW was ever that way. Wow was always casual and simple in this regard.

  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by faithbane View Post
    lol what? changing a covenant takes a weekly reset and thats great? so fuck you if you want to do both pvp/pve in the same week or tank/dps? you are only allowed to choose 1 play per week. Great solution!
    People like you is why this game has been going downhill.

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Proton View Post
    "But my choices need to matter! This is an rpg". As if WoW was ever that way. Wow was always casual and simple in this regard.
    Yes it was and it's not like your choices matter anyway.
    You pick what gives you the best output, it's not like the spells change how you play. They are really poorly balanced however and it'll be a 5-25% difference in output.

    odd really.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    I don't disagree with what you want or what your opinion is, but those who wants the Covenants to stay as they are will be the ones that plays the game as it is intended. So not egoistic. If we talk about who is making that "egoistic" opinion, that's on Blizzard, not the players.

    And that you say that people can just be locked if they want, and the rest can choose as they want, you really show that you don't understand the argument about choice. If the Covenants are locked right now, that is just as fair for Petty Battler as it is for Max Minimizer because they both got the restriction. If everyone can swap freely, those restrictions are lifted and the choice, being an illusion or not, is gone. That's the number one key argument for Covenants staying as they are.

    So no, many will lose with your option.
    "Intended"? If paying for the game but you'd be unable to play it was the "intended" way to play would you feel that was a good change to WoW?
    The point is that the covenant system is poor design. So poor that it takes what was feeling like a rather ok expansion and makes it almost unplayable.

    So no, no one will lose anything by being able to respec your class. it has not been a problem the last 16 years and it would not be this time either.

    It really shows that the top names have left WoW and Blizzard. They are just not able to push out quality content anymore.

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