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  1. #301
    Quote Originally Posted by Noxina View Post
    How exactly does it "shut you out from content"?

    By thinking I mean you have to think about what you want to chose.
    If you can't respec to do the content you're shut out. Simple as that.

  2. #302
    Quote Originally Posted by Alcsaar View Post
    Blizzard has proven time and time again that they cannot balance anything and now they want to introduce 3 systems which will all heavily influence balance (legendaries, covenants, soulbinds) all at the same time at the start of an expansion that they are clearly not ready to launch.
    even more uncommon forum opinion:

    the game shouldn't require balance on such a level that you won't pick the weakest class and spec because you'll feel left out if you do so.
    When I look at games such as Warframe for example, balance and OPness is basically about which character "wins more".

    In my opinion, WoW would only gain from creating fun to play specs (and truely focus on that) and removing top-edge raid difficulties that require you or at least force most players to go for the current patch-meta.
    M+ - in a way, is basically that.
    The rewards-efficiency stops at lvl XY, and any level above it is just for funsies.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2020-09-27 at 08:30 PM.

  3. #303
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    If you can't respec to do the content you're shut out. Simple as that.
    What Covenant pick is preventing you from doing content?

  4. #304
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    If you can't respec to do the content you're shut out. Simple as that.
    If your choice of Covenant really means you absolutely cannot do some form of content other than the one your current choice is best for, then I guess your only option is to level up 3 more of whatever your favorite class is and have every covenant on a toon of that class so you can switch as you please.

    That is the only solution offered to your "problem" at this point. Either suck it up and do that if you really believe you won't be able to M+ when you've got your Raid Covenant or just deal with being "non-optimal" at something. The choice is completely yours because we're all aware of how this is going live.
    Shut your goddamn mouth, Gene!

  5. #305
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    even more uncommon forum opinion:

    the game shouldn't require balance on such a level that you won't pick the weakest class and spec because you'll feel left out if you do so.
    When I look at games such as Warframe for example, balance and OPness is basically about which character "wins more".

    In my opinion, WoW would only gain from creating fun to play specs (and truely focus on that) and removing top-edge raid difficulties that require you or at least force most players to go for the current patch-meta.
    M+ - in a way, is basically that.
    The rewards-efficiency stops at lvl XY, and any level above it is just for funsies.
    The problem is that this is an issue of mentality, not actual game mechanics. Even Mythic raiding doesn't actually require that kind of performance unless you want to clear the raid in the first few weeks. It's the players that convinced themselves that they need to be perfect, the game does not actually demand it. And the vast majority of these players falls way short of their goal anyway.

  6. #306
    Quote Originally Posted by Pohut View Post
    What Covenant pick is preventing you from doing content?
    The imaginary Covenant named "Making Shit Up Fae"

    The reasoning is just ridiculous at this point. No Covenant is preventing anyone to do the content they want to do. Preventing is easily confused with having it a bit more easy.

    If people could stop using words like forced, mandatory, preventing, shut out, unplayable and instead used words like easier, better or worse it could maybe be a discussion that had some meaning.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    The problem is that this is an issue of mentality, not actual game mechanics. Even Mythic raiding doesn't actually require that kind of performance unless you want to clear the raid in the first few weeks. It's the players that convinced themselves that they need to be perfect, the game does not actually demand it. And the vast majority of these players falls way short of their goal anyway.
    100% correct.
    - Enough prattling. Let them come. We shall grind their bones to dust.

  7. #307
    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceboytg View Post
    If your choice of Covenant really means you absolutely cannot do some form of content other than the one your current choice is best for, then I guess your only option is to level up 3 more of whatever your favorite class is and have every covenant on a toon of that class so you can switch as you please.

    That is the only solution offered to your "problem" at this point. Either suck it up and do that if you really believe you won't be able to M+ when you've got your Raid Covenant or just deal with being "non-optimal" at something. The choice is completely yours because we're all aware of how this is going live.
    Or voice my opinion over this poorly designed system.
    I'll also most likely just won't do that content and play less if any WoW as a result.

    Just saying it's sad as Shadowlands really seemed like an ok expansion at first but they had to ruin in some way.

  8. #308
    Quote Originally Posted by Popokolara View Post
    1. it is as you say. its also incompatible with competitive gaming.
    2. no it doesnt work that way. "it doesnt break lore just adapt to game" No. that is a much lower standard of acceptance not a counter argument to what i said.
    3. the only things you dont do is real time sanctu and callings as the weeks go by. if you become another covenant you will view them all. there is no real consequence for you choosing venthyr apart from that at the same time as being venthyr u cannot view bastion content. You will next week though. That is not rp that is make believe of a very base kind.
    4.i dont think its nonsense. i think its a system for something that is not competitive mythic raiding by 20 coordinating people. you are not answering or countering an argument.
    5.again you are not answering my argument just mention there are people who like the psychological effect of the lock.

    The psychological effect of the lock on people who enjoy it is your one and only argument. Yet you do not actually pit it against what i say merely mention its existence.
    1.) What even is competitive gaming in WoW outside of MDI and Race for World First? Furthermore, what makes something incompatible with "competitive gaming" in the context of WoW?

    2.) You said that choosing a covenant (that's what seems to be implied) is nonsensical because you're sent out to help others. I've seen a similar sentiment on the WoW forums along the lines of "I thought I was helping the Covenant I selected rise to the top". That's misunderstanding the framework and lore of the Covenants. They are allies, but they are allied like the the Horde or Alliance. They share common interest from time to time, but the do not have the same ultimate goal or serve the same purpose. "The Necrolords were slighted that I didn't join them though" So that means they will refuse the opportunity to benefit from you? Of course not, as they still have goals they need to achieve. It's not as if you burned them to the ground and left them for dead when you picked someone else. They'll take the opportunity for aid from the powerful outsider if the chance is given.

    3.) Different games require different degrees of gamification. A single player RPG (Fallout, The Outer Worlds) can offer permanent choices and not have much of a problem with it. WoW, being an MMO, has to tread a different line. As it was originally intended, you were going to face a steep barrier to even change the first time, comparing it to Aldor/Scryer. This would have had a very weighty impact (and meaningful to some), as changing would be a arduous task. This later evolved to only being a steep barrier once you tried to return to a covenant you've already left, eventually settling where we are now. This was done because compromises have to be made in an wide scoped game like WoW. This also doesn't remove the RP element from it, at least in my, and a variety of others, opinion.

    4.) It absolutely is an argument to what you said. You said you believe that design philosophy is incompatible with your vision of WoW because the different kinds of content potentially present you with varying disadvantages. My response to that is, to some players, that is a design choice they 100% agree with. Some players believe it's better to have a situation where you have to make a choice, a choice that might mean you are fundamentally weaker in X, but stronger in Y. You not liking that argument doesn't make it not a counter point.

    5.) I admitted I didn't quite understand what you were trying to argue with your 5th point (so further clarification would be needed before I can really tackle it).

    On another note, it's not about any "psychological" effect. Players who like a system like Covenants aren't suffering from some sort of Stockholm syndrome. They simply agree with the design philosophy that it aspires to. Yes, they do enjoy that their decision makes them different than their peers who made a different choice, from a combat, story, and visual perspective. So I'm not sure why you think my only argument is about some sort of psychological effect.

    If we wanted to be facetious, we could really say that both sides have really essentially one argument:

    A.) I dislike Covenants because they punish me if my current Covenant isn't the best for what I'm doing.

    B.) I like Covenants because I enjoy my decision differentiating me from others.

    I m tired. I tried both mean and kind and still see only one thing: There are people who like it, as it is subjective. fuck the difficulty portion of the game we dont care about them. The inability of people outside the combat focused group to create rp or self enjoying experiences unless there exists an arbitrary time lock is a good proper argument to make competitive gaming painful. Because asking them to do it without the time lock is preposterous! it means they need to make decisions and be satisfied with them or work to invest themselves in experiences they enjoy. what horror! please give me some cheap spanish soapopera thats the only way i can enjoy movies for example.

    This is my point. We agree on this 100% Where we dissagree is wether its ok to FUCK FUCK FUCK annoy the fuck out of everything of people who actually DO USE the combat system in a way that makes a difference. and no thats not condenscending. because im not insulting more relaxed players. there is nothing wrong with the many different mindsets.

    But accepting negative impacts on COMBAT focused matters to satisfy the non existant RP segment of the game is stupid. There i said it. Its selfish and shallow and immature and foolish and a lot of other things. Its an illusion for the lowest denominator. enjoy your fake content while bizz uses its very successful marketing tradition which btw is a well know and used tactic not a sinister mastermind conspiracy. literally as common as putting big letters on labels.
    I put these two together since they are so similar. Again, you falsely believe that the only people who like the Covenant system are those who do, what I presume you are implying, those who don't do challenging content. There are high end players that have spoken out saying that they like the Covenant system. For some it was as simple as they liked the idea. For others, they liked the step away from another thing that players would pressure everyone to constantly change. Likewise, there are people who do nothing more than M0 who feel the power needs to be separated from Covenants. There are players from all walks of WoW on both sides of the fence.

    Now, I know what I'm about to say may sound weird, but try and understand where I'm coming from. Combat is one of the sole tools we use to overcome the toughest challenges in WoW. That makes combat a fundamentally important aspect of Wow. If a class plays like doo doo, it's often hard for most to find a reason to play. If a class performs and plays like doo doo, you get BfA launch dps Shamans lol (I jest). However, for some, that does not mean raw combat is the end all, be all. Now, that is a philosophical stance, not an objective statement of fact.

    What I mean by this, is that quite a lot players, including many that do care about their performance, elect to enjoy combat. Combat for the sake of combat isn't the point. They select a class/spec that they enjoy playing, not necessarily because it's the best. Most players don't go through the kind of decision making process you might see on Preach's youtube channel. For reference, Preach explained how his guild requires members to submit a list of classes/specs they'd like to play, and the guild leadership essentially determines what everyone is allowed to play.

    Most players, on the other hand, will play what they find the most enjoyable. This might mean they change every patch/xpac. It might mean they stick with the same class/spec for long stretches of time. The important thing, however, is that they are picking to play something which present a playstyle/combat type they enjoy. If all that mattered to them was the results of their combat, they would all likely go the strongest melee/ranged spec.

    I hope I was able to get my point across, cause I know it sounded kind of weird in my head.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Flying fundamentally effects every way in which the player interacts with content. It's a simple system, but a powerful one. Pathfinder is sort of a delaying action, and not really a solution that fixed the underlying issue. But I'll avoid going down that road, since I have something like 1000+ posts since WoD on the subject, and it's too easy to get lost in that rabbit hole.

    Suffice to say: The removal of the system of flight was a mistake that Blizzard was convinced would improve the overall gameplay. However, in retrospect, the reasoning they gave(better overall open world and detail) wasn't ever really delivered. It's just more of the same grounded world we've always had, more or less. Click that item. Kill X enemies. Go here. Etc....
    The reason I say I don't really consider flying a system is because, to me, it's a basic means of transportation that only applies in non-instanced content. It's only interaction with the world at large is traversing land quicker. Now, don't get it twisted, the decision to remove flying during WoD's development was one of the outright dumbest things I've ever from Blizzard. I fundamentally disagree with their original argument that flying devalues the ambient world. If they truly wanted to scale back flying, they would need to absolutely revamp how we traverse. I.E. a robust system of unlocks (see Suramar on a wider scale), the ability to unlock both limited and permanent teleports (see MoP/WoD challenge mode). I also don't particularly like pathfinder, but I would rather have it than no flying at all. Thus I accepted the compromise.

    As for Garrisons not being a primary power source. Again I have to disagree due to the levels of gold generation that it allowed via the mission table combined with BOE gear. Gold is a form of player power. It gives access to carries, consumables, gear, and even game time.
    This is a point we will likely never see eye to eye on. It falls down the same line of WoW being P2W for those same reasons (in my eyes). So I'll agree to disagree and move on from this one.

    Essences are widely considered to be one of the most anti-alt systems the game has ever had. And even the "fix" blizzard implemented only really applied if you'd already done the redonkulous grinds required to unlock them at the necessary level to give access for alts. And this doesn't even take into consideration that for many classes, the most powerful PVE essences were found in PVP areas, and vice-versa. While Blizzard loves to tote the line of "We think it's ok for the most powerful players to have to complete things in different areas of the game", ultimately it's just not fun for a large portion of the playerbase to be forced into cross-training in order to be optimal. This is also, incidentally, the same problem presented by Covenants.
    I'll be honest, in all these iterations, I don't recall if I expressed anything in detail on essences. I thought I did, but perhaps it got removed at some point. Yes, essences were not very well designed for alts. I fervently said from the outset that things needed to be done for alts. One of my earliest suggestions being something along the lines of once you get a rank 4, you unlock that essence account wide (since I figured Blizzard wouldn't make it simple). I also think the one major failing, which again I thought I mentioned before, was BotE. Heck, it was a failing even if you were a PvP player. The original requirements for rank 3 were cooked up in an asylum. I have much of a problem with asking a PvE player to do some PvP (MoP), but that was just like some Dante's inferno special hell stuff.

    However, for the most part, the system was pretty well done (disregarding alts) You had a clear path to follow. No BS, no RNG. You had a goal, and you could chart out your path. It was quite a few steps in the right direction for player agency. That's why it was received pretty well (again, in main land), including from most youtubers who had been murdering Blizz over AA for months on end.

    I don't disagree that it's a problem of philosophy. However, maybe not in the same way that you're thinking.

    I believe that Blizzard has a VERY arrogant and echo-chamberish(lol words) philosophy towards their game and its players. They have a REAL bad habit of thinking they're the only ones that have an understanding of the game and what's fun about it. Which is a problem, especially when experienced veteran players devoting hundreds of hours to testing Blizzard systems are telling them that there's problems with it....only to have it be ignored while Blizzard bullishly proceeds. Which...historically...usually results in a lot of players being unhappy with a system, and the system being fixed too late.

    Which is the fear with Covenants.
    You are right. Blizzard has a history of being headstrong. They come up with an idea, and for better or worse (in recent times it's leaned worse), they stick to their guns. However, it should be noted, that while some things people are united in their disgust (AA, Corruptions in general), other times it's a divided base. The unfortunate thing is, we lack the data blizzard has. We don't know what analytics they see, say for Covenants, that they believe supports their belief that Covenants will be fine. All we can do is analyze what data we have, watch videos on youtube, and debate about our view points.

    In the end, I could be completely wrong. Everything I've experienced up to this point could find itself tossed out the window once it finally goes live and I spend a few weeks with it in a proper setting. I certainly hope not, but it's a very real possibility. I guess, at the end of the day though, I'd rather roll the dice and take the chance.

    I think that you're confusing two very different issues here. I think it's less about absolute freedom, and more about not wanting to be forced into choosing between performance and fun. I have no doubt that there are many players who would absolutely love to play the Covenant they feel fits their idea of "cool", but won't take that because they also want to enjoy the feeling of having a character that performs the best they can absolutely make it perform.

    And this also shows up when a player DOES enjoy multiple aspects of the game(PVP, M+, Raids, etc), but their covenent/soulbind/conduit choices only allows them to be actually good at maybe 1 or 2 of them at a time. Thus the 2 week lockout means that a deeply invested player who spends a lot of time in the game can't actually do everything they enjoy at a level close to optimal. At least not historically in Blizzard systems.

    Basically what it appears to boil down to in my perception is that Blizzard is putting up very unnecessary barriers to access fun....because they've convinced themselves that making "meaningful choices" is more fun than players just being able to easily access all the different parts of the game at any given point. "Having an answer to every situation" is not a problem, as Blizzard states. It's a made up problem. Players feeling powerful in any area of the game they choose to play IS NOT A PROBLEM! It's FUN!
    Ok just to curb it from the start. It's, at most, a 8 day lockout. You have the ability to change your covenant every week, as it stands, if done properly. You do the quest and then start it again on reset. Just wanted to clarify that it's not a 2 week lockout. I know that's not really the point of this section, but I did feel it was important.

    Now, for the meat of this point. What you find fun, what others find fun, and what blizzard find fun can be totally different things. Some people do genuinely see the ability to change everything easily as a problem. It's a "if you're powerful in everything, then what does powerful even mean" kind of situation. Like I've said, this is a philosophical difference.

    No offense, but players who don't care about performance enough to just screw around with flavor systems shouldn't have their opinions taken into consideration. The failings of those systems don't effect a player like that, because they'll be having fun no matter what happens. So if it doesn't matter to them, then why not make things fun for the players who DO care about performance?
    Comments like this make a wide assumption about those kinds of players. You misappropriate their enjoyment of system that you deem to be performance detriments as meaning "they'll enjoy whatever". While it is the case that there are players who will enjoy WoW literally no matter what happens, not every player who supports those systems feels that way. It's as I said in other posts, some people genuinely like a system with strengths and weaknesses. With Covenants, for example, removing that friction removes a part of what made them enjoy the system, therefore reducing their fun. Unfortunately, the situation with Covenants is showing that different players in WoW have drastically different beliefs on what will/does make WoW fun/unfun.

    Yes, it is absolutely possible to be wrong in this situation. When decisions are being made to curtail the fun of one group in order to please another group that doesn't actually care one way or the other....then that's a problem.
    Again, you assume that those who support Covenants "don't care one way or another". If they didn't care, they wouldn't defend it. They would quite literally say they don't care one way or another. It does suck, as the Covenant system has revealed two very diametrically opposed groups. I vehemently disagree, however, that there is a right or wrong here. Both sides care deeply about the outcome of this system, and just because one side is ok (or happy) that the system has the potential to have combat related drawbacks based on your decision, doesn't mean they don't care.

    They've been doing that for MONTHS. And Blizzard is nonsensically ignoring it. That's the whole point of this concern.

    A good example is Ret paladins in PVP. Granted, this is a sub case, but it illustrates the weird way that Blizzard translates feedback from players: Savix and a number of other top rated arena Ret paladins have gone on record complaining and criticizing the state of Ret in PVP. The main complaints were a lack of mobility, closers, or ability to resist or mitigate any kind of CC.

    So what does Blizzard do? Give retribution paladins more damage.

    LITERALLY the one thing most of the top ranked players specifically said they didn't need: Blizzard gives them. It's a similar problem with Covenenants and their associated abilities. The complaints are that players are concerned that they'll be forced to choose between what they find thematically enjoyable, and raw power. What does Blizzard do? Puts a two week lock on switching covenants, combined with large power disparities between covenants for many classes.

    It's like they're using google translate to determine what players are concerned about. And the "solutions" they come up with don't make any sense.
    So I really don't think that trusting Blizzard to balance it right is going to work. It's never historically worked. Pushing for the ripcord to be pulled is the only good solution, IMO.

    But yeah. Blizzard is just going to do whatever the hell they want, regardless of what players say. Which sucks.[/QUOTE]

    *Note, I have not much to comment for PvP, as PvP is no longer a type of activity I enjoy doing. I really on PvP for things like non-pvp things, like recipe ranks in BfA. My takes do come from the perspective of PvE. I acknowledge that does mean I have a harder time understanding the issues PvP'ers face.*

    The bolded part is exactly the problem I'm talking about. Blizzard has come out and said Covenants are shipping as they are. Yet so many players continue to just complain on the forums about how they don't like it, as opposed to trying to make sure it's as good as it can be. It's the same optics Preach presents with his Covenant videos. So, people like to go out and complain about how it's not balanced, using that as a justification for why the system needs to be gutted. When they could be using that time to detail how blizzard could make the balance between X and Y better.

    No, Blizzard isn't perfect at balance, and that comes from a shaman who knows all to well. No developer working on an MMO is perfect at balance. But blizz are certainly trying, for the most part, a lot harder this time around than before. Plus, given the fact that they appear very committed to this system right now, I'd rather give them have chance, and the information, to try and make this as balanced as they can make it be. To some, that may sound foolish, as they see the past as a reason to have no faith in Blizzard, but the way I see it, whether I like a given system or not, it's up to us to help steer the ship blizzard decides to take.

    I appreciate the conversation we've had, as well as seeing the more robust viewpoints that you have presented throughout. However, I feel like I've said everything I can on the matter. Feel free to reply to my post, just know that I'm may not reply. Anyway, thank you very much for all the time you've spent going back and forth with me.

  9. #309
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    If you can't respec to do the content you're shut out. Simple as that.
    How does one covenant shut you out of doing any content though?
    Quote Originally Posted by atenime45 View Post
    The 10% reward. It's was unspoken rule that you DONT attack other faction so everyone could enjoy the 10% reward. But now no one cares about that anymore

  10. #310
    Quote Originally Posted by Zypherz View Post
    Do people really want covenant switching to be instant? You really want to feel the need to HS out of a raid and change covenant after every boss to be optimal?

    I think this is fine, better than I'd hoped. Weekly is enough.
    More then i want being gimped for any other activity and any specc for a whole week. I wanna play the game for more then one activity the rpg choices in it weren't cumbersome since dual speccs were invented. Now they are. It's not worth the feeling of being a venthyr or a kyrian to me.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Noxina View Post
    How does one covenant shut you out of doing any content though?
    It doesn't completely shut you out, merely gimp you. For raid dps a m+ soulbind might be passable, but its very unlikely for pvp where both your dps and survivability goals are completely different even in the same specc. You'd be playing behind. Blizz doesnt intend and simply can't balance it for all content in the game, which is why making it so cumbersome to switch is a mistake, because many players enjoy being competitive in more then one part of this game.


    Really, this shows the biggest problem with covenant is adding it in a game where so many people enjoy its competitive aspects. This wouldn't be a problem in ffxiv, but wow has a history and a design pattern since wotlk dual specc which encouraged players to try their best in any content, and many grew to like it. The design approach presented by covenants, where you have to choose your "favored" competitive activity, goes against what players like this find fun, and thats frustrating after having the game encourage it for so long. I don't think its a good idea to go against one's own design so flagrantly, especially when the game still offers the same competitive throughput driven activities and even more (m+, possibly torghast), even if some appreciate it.
    Last edited by Amariw; 2020-09-29 at 12:29 AM.

  11. #311
    Quote Originally Posted by Noxina View Post
    How does one covenant shut you out of doing any content though?
    The difference in power is quite substantial to apoint where it's not even remotly balanced.

  12. #312
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    The difference in power is quite substantial to apoint where it's not even remotly balanced.
    The only thing that can actually "shut you out" of content is your skill. Period.
    Good players has shown tier after tier that everything can be done with literal garbo scuffed gear, underperforming specs, suboptimal setups far beyond your imagination.

  13. #313
    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Proton View Post
    No, it really doesn't have more in common with a subclass. Specs are subclasses. They define the abilities you use. Covenant abilities are essenstially just another talent row locked behind a rep. Artifacts were not subclasses and they're the same thing as covenants, a tree with an ability. A very basic tree.
    It's not just a talent row though. With the conduits and the soulbinds you essentially choose which new talent trees you want your current character to have access to.

    And when it's a full set of talent trees on top of already having a talent tree, it's no longer just a spec. It's a subclass or prestige class.


    Your inane rant about how they have to do the opposite of what they say or else they're inconsistent I just won't comment on. It's just that dumb.

  14. #314
    Quote Originally Posted by Protean View Post
    It's not just a talent row though. With the conduits and the soulbinds you essentially choose which new talent trees you want your current character to have access to.

    And when it's a full set of talent trees on top of already having a talent tree, it's no longer just a spec. It's a subclass or prestige class.


    Your inane rant about how they have to do the opposite of what they say or else they're inconsistent I just won't comment on. It's just that dumb.
    the soulbind trees are extremely generic but ok lets go with the conduits
    1 conduit per class per covenant effects the class ability
    1 soulbind per covenant has an ability that interacts with your class ability and since the soulbinds are generic so are the abilities. They consist of stat bonuses or healing procs.

    so the subclass from the covenant you have is for example a monk in the kyrian
    you get a burst CD that increases your mastery and in terms of the dps spec you get a reset that works against your spec playstyle and a small bonus to your blackout CD reduction
    to effect that you get
    1 conduit that increases its duration and the mastery buff
    1 soulbind ability unlock which will take aproximately 3 months to unlock and it gives you a mastery bonus and chance to spawn orbs that increase the duration of the bonus

    the other bonuses from the super generic tree that you will use if you want all the covenant class bonuses??
    3 are centered around your steward
    1 is a vers bonus for not repeating abilities
    1 is a speed boost for killing a mob
    1 gets cloth and enchant mats from mobs you kill

    this is also the quickest unlock soulbind that you will have in that covenant




    but obviously taht isnt enough so lets try for example a paladin in night fae right because they get a super awesome class defining ability that sets them up into the prestige class of nature knight
    a blessing on a 45 second CD that cycles through 4 bonuses including a damage bonus that was so OP in legion when it was a blessing that they removed it

    the conduit that effects it??
    increases the duration of ONE of the 4 buffs
    the soulbind ability that effect it??
    places flowers at your feet that gives a super awesome class defining bonus....of 10% haste but thats not all it does because its on a 1 minute cooldown while the ability is on a 45 second cooldown and you have to stand in the flowers like rune of power

    thats not enough though lets go with a mage in necrolords
    ability is a burst CD with a short duration taht guess what...only works well with 1 spec
    the conduit increases the duration
    the soulbind ability that is class defining and makes you a subclass??? a 5% bonus to your HP for 30 seconds but this one will actually be a relatively quick unlock with only one downside being that you get a finesse conduit over a defense conduit which in a lot of cases is garbage

    next up venthyr warrior
    buffed execute now usable 80%<and<20% meaning you essentially get half the boss bonus execute damage and its pretty strong
    conduit gives extra damage and DR for each enemy near you up to a certain %
    soulbind ability once again months to unlock and gives % of vers to you and two allies for 10 seconds which is pretty strong when you take into account the high uptime a warrior will have with it and the fact anything effecting execute will also effect condemn




    so lets figure out what the different playstyle will be based on what these abilities do for each class
    well 2 are burst cooldowns so monk and mage are done
    another is a buff that cycles through so you will either think about it and have a macro set up for players in your raid or not give a shit
    warrior just gets a stronger ability

    "but those are different classes"

    ok lets go with monk
    youve seen kyrian
    necrolord is an aoe debuff with a short duration that increases damage done on a 1 minute CD
    venthyr is a Cd that summons random clones essentially that gives a buff to them if they match their spec
    night fae is a 30s frontal shockwave that leaves a pool on the ground essentially and fighting in it can reduce its CD and gives a buff depending on spec

    the conduits for the 3 are
    necrolord: damage or healing bonus is increased and each trigger reduces remaing CD
    venthyr: clones do more healing or damage
    night fae: deals more damage each target struck

    so for monks you have
    2 burst CDs
    1 short CD
    1 semi rotational ability except for dps because it doesnt benefit from your core class mechanic....but its class defining

    none of them change how your monk will play outside of adding that 1 button every 30 seconds if you are night fae




    artifacts were also not subclasses because every ret paladin had the same ashrbinger with the same traits except for teh relics which no matter how you switched them up did not change your playstyle. Billy had the trait to make DS a frontal projesctile and Jimmy had the one that made ashes give HP but by the end of it all they both had the exact same weapons.

    I get taht you wanna see the covenant system as something super amazing and special and core to the rpg aspect and ya know waht so do i. The unique armor and unique story and the other unique rewards you gain are amazing and honestly are the core of the covenants. I just dont like the player power being attached to it and thats true for a lot of people who are effected by it in a negative way because it punishes those who want to do something like pvp and raid or raid and m+ and push to the top end.

    You probably arent too effected and that would also be true for a vast vast majority of players. Now the proposed solution is just untie the player power...thats it no other changes just let the player power not be tied to what is essentially a story and cosmetic choice. You are free to be in your necrolord covenant using your necrolord ability and your necrolord soulbinds while the players who push things like high arena rating or mythic raids or even a +19 dungeon swap around. You wouldnt be harmed and your playstyle wouldnt be effected. Now you can make the argument that doing so would allow a new meta to emerge but that argument doesnt mean anything because you can do the same thing people are telling players like myself who care about optimization "dont worry about it play what you like it doesnt matter."

    here is why its going to be an awful system for everyone

    1. blizzard constantly balances so everyone no matter their playstyle get nerfed and buffed so you will be doing say 3% less damage than you did yesterday....not a big deal right so you would just stick with it but blizz probably buffed another ability by 5% so not only are you doing less but another player in the exact same gear will be doing more simply because blizzard decided to. Some players will want to switch maybe not you but others might. Problem arises for some because they already switched from that covenant to the current one because blizzard messed with the numbers last week so now they have a 2 reset questline (since ppl dont like it being called two weeks) to simply not be weaker than they were yesterday.

    2. you are actively discouraging players from doing things like multispeccing simply due to how some of the abilities work like the mage ability. Necrolord is a huge buff to arcane but due to how the other specs work you will go venthyr because of the way that ability works with those specs. This can be the same for literally every other class in the game.

    3. you lock story behind a choice that could be based on cosmetics. As a monk the difference between the abilities and how they play for me is not noticable whereas the story and other rewards are extremely different. I get to redeem kael and experience story tied to the raid ooooorrrr i can go angel bro and have a campaign tied to uther or i can go necrolord and deal with that mess. The worst part is these will be expanded upon in patches while the class ability wont.


    blizzard knows that tying player power to a covenant wasnt the greatest idea because not a single leggo is tied to covenants and none of them effect the class ability even though you would think expanding on the class ability would be a goal because they want it to be class defining.





    i hope you dont respond with some generic "blizzard is right because they said so" its been done before but i honestly do want to hear any argument that someone has to counter the concerns and points ive brought up because theres 1 solution that makes the covenant system pretty good and gets rid of most complaints from players like me....unlock the player power. There are people trying to come up with complicated solutions when theres a super simple one.



    and I DIDNT EVEN MENTION THE 1 WEEK CD ON CONDUITS

  15. #315
    The sad thing about covenants, conduits and soulshite is that it takes away all the attention from classes. We are left with classes that are more boring to play than ever before, relying 100% on these borrowed powers to even be functional and/or fun to play. And how to we get these borrowed powers so the classes are fun to play? We gotta grind whatever thats needed in order to just get our class to function.

    Imagine that. At the core, the classes are nothing. We actually need to grind abilites and power to play the class we pick. Its ludicrous and I cant believe the playerbase let this pass.

    Its a shit way of doing things and Blizzard is wasting to much manpower to get this done and "balanced".

    Focus on the classes & the specs. make them at the core fun, interesting and engaging to play from the get go and from the very core.

  16. #316
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    If you can't respec to do the content you're shut out. Simple as that.
    You show me the logs of 90% of the player base and I'll show you how they can maximise their DPS more than the difference covenant system has. I've watched Aff locks this xpac shred face in M+, and they have been one of the hardest hit classes/specs this xpac due to poor balancing/foresight by Blizzard (only in M+). The MAIN barrier, the MAIN problem is the community and their hyperbolic perception of how if it's not meta it's not worth it. People thinking they play shit 100% perfect and the only thing holding them back is some arbitrary numbers when they're SO far off playing optimally.

    Whole scene thinks they top 100 :')

  17. #317
    Quote Originally Posted by MatPandaZ View Post
    You show me the logs of 90% of the player base and I'll show you how they can maximise their DPS more than the difference covenant system has. I've watched Aff locks this xpac shred face in M+, and they have been one of the hardest hit classes/specs this xpac due to poor balancing/foresight by Blizzard (only in M+). The MAIN barrier, the MAIN problem is the community and their hyperbolic perception of how if it's not meta it's not worth it. People thinking they play shit 100% perfect and the only thing holding them back is some arbitrary numbers when they're SO far off playing optimally.

    Whole scene thinks they top 100 :')
    like you said 90% of the playerbase isnt effected by the problem faced with things like respeccing

    so why add in barriers taht will only effect a small amount of players while the majority wont even be effected by?/

  18. #318
    Look at this thread, LFR-level players arguing against players with a competitive mindset is all it is about.

    The hyper-casual people will never understand competitive players. Reading this thread is proof.

  19. #319
    Quote Originally Posted by zantheus1993 View Post
    bla bla bla
    Jesus christ. It's a subclass or prestige class. Only 1 ability is class specific, everything else is free for all.

    As long as you insist on everything conforming to your own narrow viewpoint you'll remain miserable and unhappy. It's a video game, if you want deep this isn't it.

  20. #320
    Quote Originally Posted by Protean View Post
    Jesus christ. It's a subclass or prestige class. Only 1 ability is class specific, everything else is free for all.

    As long as you insist on everything conforming to your own narrow viewpoint you'll remain miserable and unhappy. It's a video game, if you want deep this isn't it.
    narrow viewpoint??? dude i explained the entire scope of the system

    you call it a prestige class or a subclass when its an ability similar to a talent

    so the talent rows must make dozens of sub classes
    the essences make sub classes
    the corruptions make subclasses

    its not a subclass and its not prestigious the only thing you will end up getting out of the current system is a quick change

    i tried understanding your viewpoint but its come down to "if you disagree with me your wrong" just like everything around this system because having a discussion is impossible when you go "youre miserable if you disagree with me" yeah why would i like a good system that the game is based around. Its fine though give it a few months and it will be changed

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Vidhjerta View Post
    Look at this thread, LFR-level players arguing against players with a competitive mindset is all it is about.

    The hyper-casual people will never understand competitive players. Reading this thread is proof.
    same thing when masterloot was taken and when gear lock in M+ was placed

    players who arent effected by a change champion it because the guys who are negatively effected by it are a part of the big bad elite crowd

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