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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Amsden View Post
    Yeah it's an option, if you want to maintain 4 mains, you have fun with that.



    You're just making shit up now. Where did I say I wanted the game ruined?
    Did you even read what you typed?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beastiel View Post
    People here are actually mad because they can't be optimal in all types of content at all times in an rpg.

    And these people honestly need to leave and play something else, like any other of the hundred games where you pick your character and full load out before you start a match.
    Warcraft was always a multiplayer game first.
    Where performance matters. If you want poor choices to ruin your character go play single player games, this is not the game for you.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post

    Warcraft was always a multiplayer game first.
    Where performance matters. If you want poor choices to ruin your character go play single player games, this is not the game for you.
    What?
    lol.
    Do you think WoW or Warcraft is meant primarily for the competitive playerbase or something?

    That's just the hole you dig yourself into. That's not what Warcraft is all about.
    And back when the game had the largest playerbase, even less so.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2020-09-20 at 06:54 AM.

  3. #143
    Here's a quick test to see how badly you'll be affected by covenant swapping limitations:

    If you're sitting here reading this and/or crying about it, it will affect you far less than just getting better at the game.

    If you're not here reading this, you might be someone who does multiple forms of content at a high enough level for it to matter, BUT not actually because you'll still be playing by the same rules as other players on a similar level.

    Would have been fine if they made them easily swappable, woulda have been fine if they made them even harder to swap. The game design is what it is; everyone plays by the same rules and everyone is free to cancel their subscription at any time.
    SorryNotSorry

  4. #144
    Pandaren Monk Bwonsamdi the Dead's Avatar
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    ok so... Once you 'betray' a Covenant and try and choose a different one, you can't just abandon the quest and go back, right? Are you stuck with joining another Covenant for 2 weeks?

    I'm a Girl by the way
    I see dead people.... Yes, kinda my ting, ya know

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    Did you even read what you typed?
    Did you? Because I never said anything about wanting to ruin the game... As usual you have no idea what you're talking about.

  6. #146
    Herald of the Titans msdos's Avatar
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    I've argued this with the most logical person I've ever met and basically his conclusion for being against Covenants is, "I don't think some choices should have consequences" that's basically the gist of it after getting my A-hole torn apart in argument for about an hour. I am no match for him intellectually or in debate, but the goal was probe him to see his hand.

    Basically people don't want consequences for their choices, this is what this is really all about. No amount of chest pounding will convince the people who realize this otherwise.
    You could do a WoW experiment and start adding random consequences to things and I guarantee people would go up in riot over it, even if you removed all the grinds completely from the game. Imagine if they added in losing XP when you die or you drop loot or currency if you die, imagine consequences in this game, gee, I wonder why we don't have them.

    Imagine if you had an RPG where you could just change your dialogue choices or any meaningful choice whatsoever, doesn't matter what it is. What is the point? If you want a homogenized, generic game, just admit it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beastiel View Post
    People here are actually mad because they can't be optimal in all types of content at all times in an rpg.

    And these people honestly need to leave and play something else, like any other of the hundred games where you pick your character and full load out before you start a match.
    I tried to use this against the super genius I had an argument with and he started cherrypicking Final Fantasty and how it's an RPG where you could switch materia powers around or whatever. Like bro, literally every RPG locks you into choices in some form or another, just because you can cherry pick a few that don't or some that do and don't, doesn't mean 95% of games don't force you to make choices or have choices with consequences (like dialogue options and faction picks).

    It's endless and endless amounts of excuses of why punishing min/maxing is bad and why they should be able to be 100% good at everything at all times. How is that even fair for PVPers??
    The WoW community is full of people with wool pulled over their eyes who will ignore PVP and every aspect of the game they don't participate in. Just because you don't do pet battles doesn't mean they need to be removed from the game, same with PVP and legacy content.
    Last edited by msdos; 2020-09-20 at 10:34 AM.

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    Warcraft was always a multiplayer game first.
    Where performance matters. If you want poor choices to ruin your character go play single player games, this is not the game for you.
    WarCraft the RTS, yes. WoW, no. There's plenty of people that just play with friends to have fun, not to be super good.

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    WarCraft the RTS, yes. WoW, no. There's plenty of people that just play with friends to have fun, not to be super good.
    Yes, WoW was always and still is primarily a multiplayer game. You're looking for games such as Skyrim though even that games does not put a CD on fun such as WoW does.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    What?
    lol.
    Do you think WoW or Warcraft is meant primarily for the competitive playerbase or something?

    That's just the hole you dig yourself into. That's not what Warcraft is all about.
    And back when the game had the largest playerbase, even less so.
    No, it's meant as a multiplayer game. Not an RPG such as Skyrim or the like.
    It does have a competative nature though and the game is balanced after that. Or was.

    Now it's more balanced around being as boring as possible for whatever reason.

  9. #149
    I main a Paladin since tbc, and since tbc that I love both PVE and PvP.

    I go retri for raids , daily quests, ganking andoccasionally in BGs as well.

    I go Holy in rated arena and rated BGs occasionally in raids.

    I Go prot for mythic dungeons and occasionally in raids.

    Now you can see that with all the changes during every expansion it is getting harder and harder to gear up, for it. Or to keep artifacts power lvls or legendary. No PvP specific gear etc.

    Can see why I am against covenants?

    I change specs multiple times a day.


    Remember when you could only do 10daily quests
    From the moment I got my 5k gold to pay for the epic FM I would do the daily quest to get money just for respect I was spending 150g daily every day just for respect.

    150g was a lot back in tbc and wotlk nowhere days is nothing but back then.

    Covenants is just another headache for ppl that have the same play style as me or that do Both PvP and PvE on a daily basis.

    Hell you can play the same spec in both PVE and PVP and require different covenants to be competitive.

  10. #150
    High Overlord Yuli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dracullus View Post
    It's not fast if you expect "on the fly" choice.

    But after all we heard about Covenant being "meaningful and important choice", one week is REALLY FAST. Hell, if you don't mind grinding, you can even progress two covenants every single week (don't do that btw).
    this is true
    Don't let min-maxers ruin Shadowlands for us! Rise up, fellow casuals!

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopsnacker View Post
    So, it's now on the Beta Servers. It is so easy to return to covenants.

    At first: You lose no progress when you leave the covenants. If you return you are at the same spot as before and are fast as fuck with the heavy catchup mechanic for them.

    If you want to return to a covenant you have to do the following stuff:

    Clear Two Dungeons in the Zone of the Pact and a World Quest.
    Or you grind mobs in the Covenant Zone.
    You simply have to fill a bar, but doing two dungeons and one world quest is the fastest way.

    Then you have to wait for the next reset....and do the same quest again.

    So, Switching to a new Covenant takes 2 hours of gameplay maybe.
    And if you time it with the reset you start it on Monday/Tuesday and are in your old pact again at the next day.

    So much fucking drama over this.
    Oh yeah, I am so glad for being able to m+ every OTHER week, because I have to start moving out of my raid covenant one reset, wait for reset, do my raid, THEN go in my m+ covenant, and then next reset I can't even get the raid covenant back before raid. How flexible... not.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopsnacker View Post
    you have to wait for the next reset...
    But thats not fast is it?

  13. #153
    This is very good news. If I feel the need to switch I can, if I feel the need to switch back I can too and it won't take much effort at all.

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by msdos View Post
    I've argued this with the most logical person I've ever met and basically his conclusion for being against Covenants is, "I don't think some choices should have consequences" that's basically the gist of it after getting my A-hole torn apart in argument for about an hour. I am no match for him intellectually or in debate, but the goal was probe him to see his hand.

    Basically people don't want consequences for their choices, this is what this is really all about. No amount of chest pounding will convince the people who realize this otherwise.
    You could do a WoW experiment and start adding random consequences to things and I guarantee people would go up in riot over it, even if you removed all the grinds completely from the game. Imagine if they added in losing XP when you die or you drop loot or currency if you die, imagine consequences in this game, gee, I wonder why we don't have them.

    Imagine if you had an RPG where you could just change your dialogue choices or any meaningful choice whatsoever, doesn't matter what it is. What is the point? If you want a homogenized, generic game, just admit it.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I tried to use this against the super genius I had an argument with and he started cherrypicking Final Fantasty and how it's an RPG where you could switch materia powers around or whatever. Like bro, literally every RPG locks you into choices in some form or another, just because you can cherry pick a few that don't or some that do and don't, doesn't mean 95% of games don't force you to make choices or have choices with consequences (like dialogue options and faction picks).

    It's endless and endless amounts of excuses of why punishing min/maxing is bad and why they should be able to be 100% good at everything at all times. How is that even fair for PVPers??
    The WoW community is full of people with wool pulled over their eyes who will ignore PVP and every aspect of the game they don't participate in. Just because you don't do pet battles doesn't mean they need to be removed from the game, same with PVP and legacy content.



    do you think the person who argued with you would agree this is his viewpoint? because it does sound like a very VERY specific way of phrasing that is 100% damning and ignorant to even type.
    Last edited by Popokolara; 2020-09-20 at 05:11 PM.

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopsnacker View Post
    So, it's now on the Beta Servers. It is so easy to return to covenants.

    At first: You lose no progress when you leave the covenants. If you return you are at the same spot as before and are fast as fuck with the heavy catchup mechanic for them.

    If you want to return to a covenant you have to do the following stuff:

    Clear Two Dungeons in the Zone of the Pact and a World Quest.
    Or you grind mobs in the Covenant Zone.
    You simply have to fill a bar, but doing two dungeons and one world quest is the fastest way.

    Then you have to wait for the next reset....and do the same quest again.

    So, Switching to a new Covenant takes 2 hours of gameplay maybe.
    And if you time it with the reset you start it on Monday/Tuesday and are in your old pact again at the next day.

    So much fucking drama over this.
    I mean, to put things into perspective. It takes 7 times longer to swap covenant than it takes Apes to do the Aq sceptre Qline in classic...
    None of us really changes over time. We only become more fully what we are.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by faithbane View Post
    yep soulbinds are more or less spec base and no flavor in them either. You have to basically pick your soulbind based on spec but I was talking about the covenant ability itself. the fact that you can only change with with a weekly reset means you are locked to one role per week and would be gimped in every other role.
    You are forgetting the most.important thing. So is everyone else. That makes it an even playing field. Those PvPers that are optimal would beat you anyway. They specialise in it. For the raiders who do some PvP,. You know. The PvP heroes? They will.still get stomped with the optimal setup. In their class of skill they will be competing with others in the same boat. If you got 2k rating in 8.3 you will still be 2k rating in 9.0.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by msdos View Post
    Imagine if you had an RPG where you could just change your dialogue choices or any meaningful choice whatsoever, doesn't matter what it is. What is the point? If you want a homogenized, generic game, just admit it.
    I can tell you that all the people who argue for swapping but are not evil chaotic elitist overlords do not believe in things like pet battle removal or other ludicrous ideas. In fact usually those ideas are strawmen extremes used by people to fill in the gaps of their show.

    What i do believe, as a person against the time lock in is this:
    The idea of covenant specific alignment is a placebo RP effect. That your whole rp experience is literally: a meta optimisation frequency lock(we are discussing the time lock itself right?). I love lore and rp choices. This is an excuse for a system.
    Covenants contain the element of make the right decision, of opportunity cost, just like one talent excludes the other, and using the spell this second in combat excludes its use for is cooldown duration, but that would exist even without the idea of time lock.
    Arbitrary time locks are just another situation where you have an opportunity cost and need to calculate the losses vs gains. their difference is that your choice on 1 situation prevents choice in other situations.

    The meaning it is given, this time lock, is the idea of difficulty as you cant have everything and the idea of consistency with game lore.
    There is no current rp element that consider one covenant hostile to another barring the betrayal of Denathrius who is not a covenant choice.

    The difficulty of the time lock is an element in the game which usually gets balanced between the implications of both realms, lore and mechanical. In this case they ignore realities such as: if i want to do multiple types of content i get a much worse deal than someone who does not BUT its ok if i have multiple characters. That is odd. Very odd that their problem is how many things can one character optimise for. So maybe they want to make out character feel less 1 man army? Weird with how we are literally the maw walker the super special one the illumaned absoluter destroyer of gods - but u cant have good covenant both for m+ and raid.

    What about how in the last 4 years blizzard has specifically used the methodology of create system, make it awful to use and problematic to progress, then deliver solution halfway or later in expansion. Do you believe this is a good design decision and not the classic methodology to maintain hype points in the expacs?

    Mythic raiding, mythic plus and PVP are not compatible with covenant time locks as systems. They do not make them impossible. They make them unplesant and create a signficant discrepancy between those who want to do different content in the same character. And its all for the sake of a marketing tactic. Thats why i dont like it.

    If your roleplaying experience relies on covenant time lock you are incapable of roleplaying properly and use a placebo to convince yourself you are doing something.
    There is no background system mechanically to support the idea o time locks. The combat and mechanics are just not designed for it to mesh. So just tossing it and saying we believe in this when they are discussing the ripcold is very telling.

    The reason the time lock is not trully meaningful is that it doesnt change anything in the world. There are no real implications but combat suboptimisation and the placebo rp "my theme is different". Just because someone gives you a blue graphic on a spell it doesnt mean you achieved something amazing. And you definately dont need a blue particle to achieve meaningful rp. As an avid D&D enthusiast this whole time lock situation is disgusting.

    And if its trully a betrayal we commit by swapping, we should not be given more than 1 chance to return.

    TLDR: I dont dislike the idea of something more restricting. The problem is the game systems are not designed around it, it is miserable and shallow just to provide a basic excuse for a disgusting marketing tactic and is not even decently done to at least have proper lore reasons. In fact it goes against them!

    A competitive difficulty does not work with things like suboptimal choices, be it due to thematic or lore reasons, or other design intent.
    If you argue for covenant to have a time lock you argue for a subjective viewpoint that works on non high difficulty content to be applied to all content, when you own content is not at all meaningfully affected. If things like what other players do and how you all look alike bother you, you are bothered by the mmo part of the mmorpg.

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    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    You are forgetting the most.important thing. So is everyone else. That makes it an even playing field. Those PvPers that are optimal would beat you anyway. They specialise in it. For the raiders who do some PvP,. You know. The PvP heroes? They will.still get stomped with the optimal setup. In their class of skill they will be competing with others in the same boat. If you got 2k rating in 8.3 you will still be 2k rating in 9.0.
    you are saying there are only dedicated pvpers, and raider who do pvp and are always worse and therefore its okay to compete with worse tools.
    Last edited by Popokolara; 2020-09-20 at 05:44 PM.

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by LazuOG View Post


    Stairs do nothing for you because you have a disability? Just stay on the ground floor then. There. Super easy solution to that problem.

    Smart fella, gotta admit.
    I am glad you compared a minor in-game inconvenience to a real life disability. It just shows how unhinged "min-maxers" like you are.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Zypherz View Post
    Do people really want covenant switching to be instant? You really want to feel the need to HS out of a raid and change covenant after every boss to be optimal?
    Was it really a problem when we could change talents at will even within a raid a few years ago ? Pretty sure it bothered absolutely no one.

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    2 weeks is not fast.
    If I want to PvP I don't want to wait 2 bloody weeks.

    What are you on about? It's a stupid system however you "white-knight" it.
    Not unless you decide to go from venthyr to bastion and do the requirements on saturday-monday than same thing on tuesday.

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