If the content isn't enjoyable without the carrot, then the content is not for you...

[Toybox]

One of the weirdest complaints I've seen over the years (and especially throughout the Shadowlands Alpha/Beta cycle) is regarding how content without any in-game reward is simply not worth doing. While everyone is going to differ on what they do enjoy & what they don't enjoy, to me, the end result is simple: If you need a tangible reward to consider doing something worthwhile, then it isn't something you enjoy.

A lot of people seem to be happy with Shadowlands & its laid back approach to what is "required" for player power progression, but others are seemingly less enthusiastic, and I don't really get it. If you don't think M+ is worth doing past unlocking your weekly M+ vault rewards then you can go do something else you enjoy instead, right? I enjoy M+ so I'll continue to play them anyway, just like I'm sure many people continue to PvP despite the rewards being absolute trash historically.

What's wrong with that? With less being tied to player power, we're looking at an expansion where doing the stuff you consider fun is looking to be easier than ever, which is why I'm going to be pet battling, alt leveling, & achievement hunting fairly early on this time around No feeling like you might be left behind because you didn't do your BfA list of chores - just log on & do the stuff you enjoy!

I get that it's an RPG and there needs to be player progression, but that's still there 100% with the covenant story development, gear coming in a slower but steadier pace, etc.

[Tarba]

Cool story.
There is no mandatory chore in bfa if you want to pet battle or go in lfr.
So what's the point of that post ?

[Toybox]

Cool story.
There is no mandatory chore in bfa if you want to pet battle or go in lfr.
So what's the point of that post ?

I'm just on about player progression in general. I personally raid mythic & like the direction they're taking with Shadowlands for many reasons, but I feel the same applies across the board. If you enjoy something, do it - If you don't, don't do it With less being "required" to keep your character optimal, it leaves more time for the fun stuff for everyone, which is nothing but a good thing in my opinion.

I just don't get the people who say there's not a lot to do in Shadowlands because a lot of the stuff there is doesn't give power. If you need power rewards to make the content worth doing, then the content isn't fun for you, which means it's a good thing it doesn't give power so you can spend your time doing stuff you actually enjoy instead.

[Rtrain]

One of the weirdest complaints I've seen over the years (and especially throughout the Shadowlands Alpha/Beta cycle) is regarding how content without any in-game reward is simply not worth doing. While everyone is going to differ on what they do enjoy & what they don't enjoy, to me, the end result is simple: If you need a tangible reward to consider doing something worthwhile, then it isn't something you enjoy.

A lot of people seem to be happy with Shadowlands & its laid back approach to what is "required" for player power progression, but others are seemingly less enthusiastic, and I don't really get it. If you don't think M+ is worth doing past unlocking your weekly M+ vault rewards then you can go do something else you enjoy instead, right? I enjoy M+ so I'll continue to play them anyway, just like I'm sure many people continue to PvP despite the rewards being absolute trash historically.

What's wrong with that? With less being tied to player power, we're looking at an expansion where doing the stuff you consider fun is looking to be easier than ever, which is why I'm going to be pet battling, alt leveling, & achievement hunting fairly early on this time around No feeling like you might be left behind because you didn't do your BfA list of chores - just log on & do the stuff you enjoy!

I get that it's an RPG and there needs to be player progression, but that's still there 100% with the covenant story development, gear coming in a slower but steadier pace, etc.

Unfortunately I don’t think that’s what people are complaining about. Take mythic+ for example; before you could realistically push without ever raiding. You’d eventually get mythic comparable gear thanks to titanforging and have a decent set of gear from just the base ilvl. Now in order to push you will need to either raid or wait 13 weeks to catch up to other people in gear. The disadvantage was large previously, it’s even worse now.

In an expansion they addressed a lot of the pvp problems it’s odd they took a step back with the m+ community

[kaminaris]

Yes and no.

For some content is good enough for chasing best times to be "reward"
For some content is only good if it also helps their character progression
For some content is only good for first couple of X times.

The last group is basically everyone on the planet. Now think about it hard, how long M+ can stay fun if it's gonna be the same 8/10 dungeons for 2 years?
Of course there has to be rewards in there.

[Queen of Hamsters]

Everything you said you'll be doing, still has the carrot on a stick approach.

Would you be questing whilst locking your character's XP...? Would you be happy to lose the pet battles every time? Would you mind chasing achievements if there was a chance you might not get them despite putting in the work?

The donkey spinning the mill will be much happier if it catches the carrot. And human beings are intelligent enough to realize the certainty in obtaining the carrot. Hence, people gon' do what they do.

Is it a bit pathetic when an adult chooses to grind for 15 hours in a row for a reward only to then whine on MMO-C as if they were forced? Of course. But they're clearly not going to stop doing it.

[kaminaris]

Unfortunately I don’t think that’s what people are complaining about. Take mythic+ for example; before you could realistically push without ever raiding. You’d eventually get mythic comparable gear thanks to titanforging and have a decent set of gear from just the base ilvl. Now in order to push you will need to either raid or wait 13 weeks to catch up to other people in gear. The disadvantage was large previously, it’s even worse now.

And yes this is correct.

[Toybox]

Unfortunately I don’t think that’s what people are complaining about. Take mythic+ for example; before you could realistically push without ever raiding. You’d eventually get mythic comparable gear thanks to titanforging and have a decent set of gear from just the base ilvl. Now in order to push you will need to either raid or wait 13 weeks to catch up to other people in gear. The disadvantage was large previously, it’s even worse now.

In an expansion they addressed a lot of the pvp problems it’s odd they took a step back with the m+ community

Fair, but they're slowing gear progression down across the board. Raiders are going to be seeing less drops as well, and unlike M+, the fact you're limited to one run per week on heroic & lord knows how long until your guild can fully clear on mythic should balance itself out in the long run. Hell, in the long run, everyone should be better off than they are currently due to the targeted loot system being a major upgrade over the current weekly cache. I've seen some people argue that they'll still be behind because raiders do M+ as well, but people doing 2 forms of content to a certain level should be getting more gear per week than someone doing 1 form of content at a similar level.

Anyway, I didn't mean for this to become a M+ system post I'm thinking more of game systems like AP. Something which has gone without any sort of a cap for two expansions straight & is now limited with a catch-up from the get go, which I think is the perfect system. Some people don't like the idea that they don't have the incentive to grind, but as is the point of the thread, I think it's weird to want to be locked into a grind to stay relevant when you could be doing stuff you enjoy instead.

Yes and no.

For some content is good enough for chasing best times to be "reward"
For some content is only good if it also helps their character progression
For some content is only good for first couple of X times.

The last group is basically everyone on the planet. Now think about it hard, how long M+ can stay fun if it's gonna be the same 8/10 dungeons for 2 years?
Of course there has to be rewards in there.

With good people, I'd argue m+ is always fun, at least for me. I came back to the game earlier in the year & did 200~ or so +15s/20s with guildies since then with absolutely zero chance of an upgrade. Only thing I could hope to get was a boost to my mythical r.io score, which is irrelevant as I don't pug anyway

Everything you said you'll be doing, still has the carrot on a stick approach.

Would you be questing whilst locking your character's XP...? Would you be happy to lose the pet battles every time? Would you mind chasing achievements if there was a chance you might not get them despite putting in the work?

The donkey spinning the mill will be much happier if it catches the carrot. And human beings are intelligent enough to realize the certainty in obtaining the carrot. Hence, people gon' do what they do.

Is it a bit pathetic when an adult chooses to grind for 15 hours in a row for a reward only to then whine on MMO-C as if they were forced? Of course. But they're clearly not going to stop doing it.

Questing is a means to an end. I've not enjoyed it for more than a decade, but it opens up the door to so much great stuff that putting in 10 hours at the start of an expansion isn't the end of the world As for the achievements, well, have you seen some of the achievements lately? That Island Expedition one where you have to chase quest items is an absolute mythic - I genuinely might never get it, but oh well, I only do Islands when I feel like doing Islands.

[BeepBoo]

The disadvantage was large previously, it’s even worse now.

Except that's not true at all. M+ was one of the BEST sources for getting mythic loot, even better than clearing actual mythic. As well, the difficulty of clearing "max profitable M+" to get the best chance at said mythic gear was pretty easy compared to what would always be the roadblock bosses in any given mythic tier.

They needed to tone it down and make it more comparable.

Truth be told, getting one piece of powerful gear a week is about all a character should expect if they want to stop with the stupid extremely rapid power inflation.

[Tronski]

One of the weirdest complaints I've seen over the years (and especially throughout the Shadowlands Alpha/Beta cycle) is regarding how content without any in-game reward is simply not worth doing. While everyone is going to differ on what they do enjoy & what they don't enjoy, to me, the end result is simple: If you need a tangible reward to consider doing something worthwhile, then it isn't something you enjoy.

A lot of people seem to be happy with Shadowlands & its laid back approach to what is "required" for player power progression, but others are seemingly less enthusiastic, and I don't really get it. If you don't think M+ is worth doing past unlocking your weekly M+ vault rewards then you can go do something else you enjoy instead, right? I enjoy M+ so I'll continue to play them anyway, just like I'm sure many people continue to PvP despite the rewards being absolute trash historically.

What's wrong with that? With less being tied to player power, we're looking at an expansion where doing the stuff you consider fun is looking to be easier than ever, which is why I'm going to be pet battling, alt leveling, & achievement hunting fairly early on this time around No feeling like you might be left behind because you didn't do your BfA list of chores - just log on & do the stuff you enjoy!

I get that it's an RPG and there needs to be player progression, but that's still there 100% with the covenant story development, gear coming in a slower but steadier pace, etc.

Very many people play games for the wrong reasons. When it comes to WoW those reasons are usually player power>fun, because their idea of fun is putting out awe-inspiring numbers so that their peers in their respective echo-chambers will include or depend on them. That, and/or roflstomping in PvP.
Both of which you can only obtain through power-ups, and the more arbitrary and grindy the process is, the more people you will be overpowering just by putting in the time.

Less grinds means more equal powerlevels, and it's seemingly a hassle to outperform everyone based on skills alone.
This dissatisfies tryhards for obvious reasons.

And you are 100% right, if they don't want to play unless said playing increase the numbers they put out, then they should really reconsider their addiction and needs.

[xziino]

If you dont have infinite time to play this game and the content u like the most is the least rewarding one, but you really need those rewards, let's say gear, you are forced out of what you want to play to what you have to play just to keep up one day with what you want to play.

As long as there is a system that rewards you in a way which makes it essential for other areas of the game a "then play something else" mentality is not going to work.
Furthermore, why having dead content in the game anyway which you have to maintain and balance when clearly the majority won't play it anymore anyway? Creating more endgame and at the same time not giving a flying F about the state and the player base is something that is not really fitting together.

As long as they dont clearly separate every endgame content from each others, this whole "cycle of hatred :3" will not end anyway. Sure in the end you should play what you want, but being forced to play something different just to compete in the area you want is meh meh for everyone limited in time (or not feeling like doing anything else than activity X).

Just think about people who want to push high keys, how far they will be behind if they do not raid mythic, how long it will take to catch up, if they can that is. How long they have to wait just to be part of that group again. It is just not fair. But this is the same thing vice versa, you shouldnt need to run dungeons to get the best gear to raid. Just make a clear line.

[Accendor]

One of the weirdest complaints I've seen over the years (and especially throughout the Shadowlands Alpha/Beta cycle) is regarding how content without any in-game reward is simply not worth doing. While everyone is going to differ on what they do enjoy & what they don't enjoy, to me, the end result is simple: If you need a tangible reward to consider doing something worthwhile, then it isn't something you enjoy.

A lot of people seem to be happy with Shadowlands & its laid back approach to what is "required" for player power progression, but others are seemingly less enthusiastic, and I don't really get it. If you don't think M+ is worth doing past unlocking your weekly M+ vault rewards then you can go do something else you enjoy instead, right? I enjoy M+ so I'll continue to play them anyway, just like I'm sure many people continue to PvP despite the rewards being absolute trash historically.

What's wrong with that? With less being tied to player power, we're looking at an expansion where doing the stuff you consider fun is looking to be easier than ever, which is why I'm going to be pet battling, alt leveling, & achievement hunting fairly early on this time around No feeling like you might be left behind because you didn't do your BfA list of chores - just log on & do the stuff you enjoy!

I get that it's an RPG and there needs to be player progression, but that's still there 100% with the covenant story development, gear coming in a slower but steadier pace, etc.

Look, loot/charactet progression was always the biggest motivation factor in RPGs for the majority of the playerbase. Content that did not reward anything is mostly not considered content.

You also ignore an important point: Getting an appropiate reward is what makes specific things fun to do.

"If you only do the content because it gives rewards, you arw not interested in the content" is just some statement that you made. It has no foundation and might be true for you, but not for everyone else.

[BeepBoo]

The last group is basically everyone on the planet. Now think about it hard, how long M+ can stay fun if it's gonna be the same 8/10 dungeons for 2 years?
Of course there has to be rewards in there.

What is wrong with m+ falling off if it gets stale? That's the whole reason they add new affixes every major patch. It's the whole reason shit gets harder as you go higher in number. If you get tired of it regardless of the changes it has as you push higher, I'd say m+ isn't for you. Bliz, nor the players, should expect or even WANT content that is just the same thing grinded over and over to stay relevant for an entire xpac. We SHOULD be getting more content than that. They shouldn't be getting off the hook to deliver on that promise of "you pay us, we give you more"

[Accendor]

Very many people play games for the wrong reasons. When it comes to WoW those reasons are usually player power>fun, because their idea of fun is putting out awe-inspiring numbers so that their peers in their respective echo-chambers will include or depend on them. That, and/or roflstomping in PvP.
Both of which you can only obtain through power-ups, and the more arbitrary and grindy the process is, the more people you will be overpowering just by putting in the time.

Less grinds means more equal powerlevels, and it's seemingly a hassle to outperform everyone based on skills alone.
This dissatisfies tryhards for obvious reasons.

And you are 100% right, if they don't want to play unless said playing increase the numbers they put out, then they should really reconsider their addiction and needs.

Your statement that other players "play a game wrong" and have "fun the wrong way" is not only condescending, but also embarassing.

[Jastall]

All content in the game relies on a carrot. You do WQs for initial gear and currency when applicable. You farm old content for transmogs or mounts. You do raids for raid gear. You do PvP to increase in rank and get gear as well, you do professions to get gold and/or useful items, so on and so forth.

That doesn't mean everyone who does said content does it for the carrot. But it does mean that if you completely remove any reward from, say, M+ or Arena PvP participation will plummet, same for raids or world content. People like progression and being rewarded for doing things, in fact it's the driving purpose of this game.

[VinceVega]

One of the weirdest complaints I've seen over the years (and especially throughout the Shadowlands Alpha/Beta cycle) is regarding how content without any in-game reward is simply not worth doing. While everyone is going to differ on what they do enjoy & what they don't enjoy, to me, the end result is simple: If you need a tangible reward to consider doing something worthwhile, then it isn't something you enjoy.

A lot of people seem to be happy with Shadowlands & its laid back approach to what is "required" for player power progression, but others are seemingly less enthusiastic, and I don't really get it. If you don't think M+ is worth doing past unlocking your weekly M+ vault rewards then you can go do something else you enjoy instead, right? I enjoy M+ so I'll continue to play them anyway, just like I'm sure many people continue to PvP despite the rewards being absolute trash historically.

What's wrong with that? With less being tied to player power, we're looking at an expansion where doing the stuff you consider fun is looking to be easier than ever, which is why I'm going to be pet battling, alt leveling, & achievement hunting fairly early on this time around No feeling like you might be left behind because you didn't do your BfA list of chores - just log on & do the stuff you enjoy!

I get that it's an RPG and there needs to be player progression, but that's still there 100% with the covenant story development, gear coming in a slower but steadier pace, etc.

I agree and disagree at the same time.

I like rewards. They feel good. I like killing bosses. Progress also feels good.
I don't like to have content which gives me something and content that does not give me something which i like both.

When i do something difficult in a game i want a reward for it. Like mythic raiding for example. Although people complained enough, that they removed the Mythic set. Basically getting rid of one look entirely. For some reason the playerbase was happy... blizz too as they don't have to design a whole new set for every class again. No idea how that is good for us.
I like doing mythic+ too. And i do it above level 15 which gives me nothing but bragging rights. And i am fine with it. BUT mythic and pvp have their own color tints at least. Mythic+ has nothing really but the boring as base tints of dungeon equip.

tldr: i don't need a reward but i like getting one. I will play mythic+ further but they could give us something for it.

[Die]

Blizzard does not allow players to enjoy content purely for the challenge because they keep nerfing everything. If I want to realistically attempt a mythic NZoth kill as the fight was originally designed, I better be in a top guild and pouring 40 hours per week into WoW. Otherwise, by the time my guild and I get there, NZoth will have been seriously nerfed. I am not allowed to see the content.

So if I am barred from enjoying the content for the challenge, I might as well play for the carrot.

[Toybox]

I agree and disagree at the same time.

I like rewards. They feel good. I like killing bosses. Progress also feels good.
I don't like to have content which gives me something and content that does not give me something which i like both.

When i do something difficult in a game i want a reward for it. Like mythic raiding for example. Although people complained enough, that they removed the Mythic set. Basically getting rid of one look entirely. For some reason the playerbase was happy... blizz too as they don't have to design a whole new set for every class again. No idea how that is good for us.
I like doing mythic+ too. And i do it above level 15 which gives me nothing but bragging rights. And i am fine with it. BUT mythic and pvp have their own color tints at least. Mythic+ has nothing really but the boring as base tints of dungeon equip.

tldr: i don't need a reward but i like getting one. I will play mythic+ further but they could give us something for it.

I agree with you. Getting rewards does feel good, whether it be that title or just an achievement, but the idea of doing something I don't enjoy just for a reward just keeps making less & less sense to me. I'm all for mythic only sets, dedicated elite PvP sets, new sets for high M+ players, etc - I just can't imagine doing any of those things for the reward rather than the content itself.

Weirdly enough, I'm probably contradicting 90% of my WoW playtime where I've been a pretty dirty achievement farmer But most of those are fun if you let them be, and the stuff that isn't (like the Nazjatar meta) I've just stopped doing entirely.

[BeepBoo]

People like progression and being rewarded for doing things, in fact it's the driving purpose of this game.

People need to get better fucking jobs and get this satisfaction from where it really belongs. The rewards in wow are so artificial and meaningless unless they come from something that actually indicates you are a special player. Glad title. CE title. Otherwise, if your reward is some random casino lottery win, how does that make you feel good as a person? Dumb luck is dumb luck. It has no reflection on you as a person.

- - - Updated - - -

So if I am barred from enjoying the content for the challenge, I might as well play for the carrot.

Or find a game that actually allows your to achieve your real desires without having to make such large sacrifices or compromises to your personal integrity.

[Queen of Hamsters]

People need to get better fucking jobs and get this satisfaction from where it really belongs. The rewards in wow are so artificial and meaningless unless they come from something that actually indicates you are a special player. Glad title. CE title. Otherwise, if your reward is some random casino lottery win, how does that make you feel good as a person? Dumb luck is dumb luck. It has no reflection on you as a person.

Or, people can just continue doing what they want to be doing rather than listen to individuals such as yourself? It's a game, people spend free time in it. And you can buy anything that's "special" to you in this game, so...

People also have a right to feel happy with whatever that may be. Being angry about that seems petty as fuck.