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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Collected View Post
    But then the time it takes to level a new character and reach current content gets longer and longer again. That's something Blizzard want to avoid in an effort to win over new players in the 2020 MMO genre. It's no coincidence 1-50 takes something like 60% less time than 1-110 currently does. Adding on 10 levels every expansion starts creating all of the problems they've just fixed in Shadowlands.
    Why? You know they can adjust XP requirements and gains to make it take the next expansion take as long as this one. 10-60 now takes as long as 10-50 did. It doesn't create any problems. People can handle leveling to 100 again before another squish. Resetting back to 50 every expansion kills progression completely.There is absolutely no reason to ever play the game again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaetha View Post
    Every expansion outside major class changes has started with you doing less DPS at the new level cap than you did at the previous. Once again, I ask, how is that different? You aren't losing character progression. You're losing gear. The character still did the stuff it did. Basing your enjoyment around showing off instead of having fun means you're always going to have a bad time.
    No it didn't. You progressive did more until they did a ILvL squish. ANd yes you are losing progression. Having your level go up and continuing through each expansion was the progression because you knew you would get 10 more levels. And it isn't about showing off either. It is about a sense of getting more powerful. Resetting to 50 every expansion kills that sense completely because it was the one thing you did have that kept increasing. There is zero wrong with waaiting until 100 until the resetting to 50. It does not and should not be done every expansion.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    game isn't going to be around long enough for it to become a problem again.

    The only thing 100% fatal to a game is ignoring the new player experience. People will always leave. You need to replace them somehow.

  3. #63
    Working theory is that preparing for preemptively and initiating a squish of each expansion after the next one comes out apparently interferes less with the expansion cycle than a much larger squish that encompasses the entire rest of the game. I think the idea of this kind of speculated approach is that it reduces the max capacity for work these squishes will ever do in the future, though they are now more frequent. It may also be a bit repetitive to go back and squish old stuff over and over again, which may end up breaking things and causing a lot of cascading issues that may need fixing as well - so in the long haul it's probably seen as less work this way, especially if inevitably a squish is needed all at once later anyway - this way at least they make everything easier on themselves. At least, that's the reasoning I've been thinking would be used for this kind of approach anyway.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaetha View Post
    Yes, you were reset to a baseline by leveling. That's the entire purpose of increasing the level cap. Nothing has changed. You've just been given a new angle to make an argument that has never made sense. Like I said, anyone that has a problem with being reset is either lying to themselves or were going to quit after the next expansion.

    Anything else is people that complain about literally any change because they get off on it.
    ALly oua re saying here is "I'm right and anyone who disagrees with me is wrong". Well, that is just your opinion, not fact, and I disagree with it. That does not make me wrong. No, you were not rest to a baseline because you continued to grow in power, level and gear Only when an ILvL squish happen was there a reset. The beasts were more powerful therefore you had to become more powerful.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by ReVnX View Post
    We'll just get back to 100 and they'll squish it back.
    I'd like that aswell. Assuming we do get to that point again of course, but I don't see why we wouldn't.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaetha View Post
    Every expansion outside major class changes has started with you doing less DPS at the new level cap than you did at the previous. Once again, I ask, how is that different? You aren't losing character progression. You're losing gear. The character still did the stuff it did. Basing your enjoyment around showing off instead of having fun means you're always going to have a bad time.
    I don't know what world you were living in but you were more powerful at 70 than 60, 80 than 70, etc. Only time it started going the other way was when they started squishing.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaetha View Post
    The only thing 100% fatal to a game is ignoring the new player experience. People will always leave. You need to replace them somehow.
    It's a 16 year old game. YOu aren't going to be getting a significant amount of new players anymore.Alll you have to do is make it 10-60 instead of 10-50. This idea that you have to reset to 10-50 or the leveling experience is ruined is a complete fallacy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zypherz View Post
    A compromise I can come up with would be to increase the cap to 70 but throw Shadowlands into the new 1-60 leveling range, adjusting experience rates so that it's the same time as the current 1-50. I don't really care either way, but I think it's a lot better than picking 1 out of 8 expansions and then having to fully do 9.0, 10.0, 11.0 and so on.

    I just enjoy the model of 'Pick 1 old expansion, experience it fully, now play the current one'. I want that design to stay, don't really care how they go about it.
    This is what I have been saying. 1-50 now becomes 1-60 Make 1-60 go just as fast as 1-50 will now.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertMugabe View Post
    It would be the most logical for Blizzard if they applied the SL "system" to any future expansion. So once 10.0 comes out, the SL xpac becomes the default 10-50 content, while the new expac is 50-60 and so forth...

    They're definitely not gonna add a new expansion and make it 60-70, while you're "forced" to always do SL 50-60, while all other expacs are at 10-50. We'll just end up with the same shitty leveling experience we had previously (which was already a massive issue in WoD and to a lesser extent in MoP)
    They would simply make 10-50 part of SL like it will be for every other pre BFA expansion. Duh.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DirtyCasual View Post
    There's no point in saying this, even if you slap them upside down and inside out with the truth, the tin foil hat brigade will continue to believe the opposite.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    No it didn't. You progressive did more until they did a ILvL squish. ANd yes you are losing progression. Having your level go up and continuing through each expansion was the progression because you knew you would get 10 more levels. And it isn't about showing off either. It is about a sense of getting more powerful. Resetting to 50 every expansion kills that sense completely because it was the one thing you did have that kept increasing. There is zero wrong with waaiting until 100 until the resetting to 50. It does not and should not be done every expansion.
    Yes, you did. You always do less at the beginning of an expansion at level cap than you did end game previous expansion. It happens every time because someone with that gear gets almost no upgrades while leveling and their secondary stats go way down. I have personally seen it happen every time unless there was something like 2.0 that changed a lot of specs to make their base way higher. Regardless of any squish, the amount of secondary stats goes down so much while you're leveling you do less damage at level cap than you did at the previous cap.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    Yea, I know it's anecdotal but I know MANY people, including myself, who weren't happy with the level squish they are doing now who would quit if they kept doing it and a few even who were ok with this one but said if they did another one they'd be gone.
    So why are you losing your bananas over a 'what if' scenario.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Garybear View Post
    So why are you losing your bananas over a 'what if' scenario.
    I'm not "losing my banana's" just expressing that I think it is a dumb idea.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    Resetting back to 50 every expansion kills progression completely.There is absolutely no reason to ever play the game again.
    Well they're doing it now. Are you going to stop playing because you're no longer level 120?

  13. #73
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  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaetha View Post
    This is the only solution that will 100% not happen. The game doesn't work that way. The levels are needed to reset stat percentages. You can't add more ilvl without lowering stat values, base stat values being too low feels absolutely awful, and the only good way to lower stat values is by increasing the level cap. No other way works.
    They could just adjust the values when the expansion comes. Tada problem solved.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    I don't know what world you were living in but you were more powerful at 70 than 60, 80 than 70, etc. Only time it started going the other way was when they started squishing.
    You're wrong because of how ratings work.

    Leveling 10 levels makes your secondary ratings significantly less effective. The amount of primary and secondary stats you gained (from better gear) was often not enough to offset this loss. Thus as you level, you lose power (if you were in end game gear from the previous expansion when you started, obviously if you were still in leveling gear from the previous expansion this doesn't really apply).

    Made up simple number example:
    Level 110 character has - 2000 int, 793 crit rating (45%), 832 haste rating (50%), 624 versatility (30%)

    using a 100% SP w/ 1 sec cast nuke that's 2000 * (1.05 base crit + 0.45 rating crit) * 1.5 (haste) * 1.3 (vers) in terms of effective DPS (ignoring any class based mechanics and mastery to keep things simple)

    5850 DPS

    Now, level that 110 to 120, let's say the new gear is ~50% more powerful than what the character had, so that would be:
    3000 int, 1190 crit rating (16.53%), 1248 haste rating (18.36%), 936 vers rating (11.01%)

    that's 3000 * (1.05 base crit + 0.1653 rating crit) * 1.1836 * 1.1101 =

    4790 DPS, a loss of about 20%.

    Your gear numbers might be going up, but your DPS is going down. When you account for the fact that most specs have extra scaling based on certain secondary stats, the real DPS loss is usually higher.

    There's a reason why many people freeze their characters at 110 or 111 for farming old raids, they're significantly more powerful than if they were max level (of course access to legendaries doesn't hurt either but people have done it in previous expansions too when that wasn't a factor).

    This kind of "damage goes down while you're leveling" has occurred in pretty much every expansion except Cataclysm I believe. And the only reason it didn't happen there was because they gave massive amounts of primary stats to your character (ie your leveling stats, not gear based stats). You gain relatively few base stats while leveling now so that one time was the exception rather than the rule.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    They could just adjust the values when the expansion comes. Tada problem solved.
    And that wouldn't be just as jarring (if not more), when your character magically has their dps cut by 70% because your secondaries were "nerfed" to the ground?

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by ShmooDude View Post
    You're wrong because of how ratings work.

    Leveling 10 levels makes your secondary ratings significantly less effective. The amount of primary and secondary stats you gained (from better gear) was often not enough to offset this loss. Thus as you level, you lose power (if you were in end game gear from the previous expansion when you started, obviously if you were still in leveling gear from the previous expansion this doesn't really apply).

    Made up simple number example:
    Level 110 character has - 2000 int, 793 crit rating (45%), 832 haste rating (50%), 624 versatility (30%)

    using a 100% SP w/ 1 sec cast nuke that's 2000 * (1.05 base crit + 0.45 rating crit) * 1.5 (haste) * 1.3 (vers) in terms of effective DPS (ignoring any class based mechanics and mastery to keep things simple)

    5850 DPS

    Now, level that 110 to 120, let's say the new gear is ~50% more powerful than what the character had, so that would be:
    3000 int, 1190 crit rating (16.53%), 1248 haste rating (18.36%), 936 vers rating (11.01%)

    that's 3000 * (1.05 base crit + 0.1653 rating crit) * 1.1836 * 1.1101 =

    4790 DPS, a loss of about 20%.

    Your gear numbers might be going up, but your DPS is going down. When you account for the fact that most specs have extra scaling based on certain secondary stats, the real DPS loss is usually higher.

    There's a reason why many people freeze their characters at 110 or 111 for farming old raids, they're significantly more powerful than if they were max level (of course access to legendaries doesn't hurt either but people have done it in previous expansions too when that wasn't a factor).

    This kind of "damage goes down while you're leveling" has occurred in pretty much every expansion except Cataclysm I believe. And the only reason it didn't happen there was because they gave massive amounts of primary stats to your character (ie your leveling stats, not gear based stats). You gain relatively few base stats while leveling now so that one time was the exception rather than the rule.
    Legion to BfA is messed up on many levels, mostly legendaries being lost, I wasn't referring to when they started squishing though. I was referring to the game before major borrowed power systems and squishes.

    Going from 60 in Vanilla to 70 in TBC you got more powerful
    Going from 70 in TBC to 80 in Wrath you got more powerful, etc.

  17. #77
    It’s not so complicated. They will be resetting ilvl and stats. They would have to define baselines first. It’s going to be very modular and, level-wise, we will never regress or progress once at level 60.

    New expansions will progress ilvl and renown/build-your-own-talent trees as the new max level progression norm.

    Previous expansions will be 10-60 leveling. New players would start in SL from 10 to 60 when expansion 10.0 comes out.
    Last edited by RemasteredClassic; 2020-09-20 at 12:48 AM.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by ShmooDude View Post
    You're wrong because of how ratings work.

    Leveling 10 levels makes your secondary ratings significantly less effective. The amount of primary and secondary stats you gained (from better gear) was often not enough to offset this loss. Thus as you level, you lose power (if you were in end game gear from the previous expansion when you started, obviously if you were still in leveling gear from the previous expansion this doesn't really apply).

    Made up simple number example:
    Level 110 character has - 2000 int, 793 crit rating (45%), 832 haste rating (50%), 624 versatility (30%)

    using a 100% SP w/ 1 sec cast nuke that's 2000 * (1.05 base crit + 0.45 rating crit) * 1.5 (haste) * 1.3 (vers) in terms of effective DPS (ignoring any class based mechanics and mastery to keep things simple)

    5850 DPS

    Now, level that 110 to 120, let's say the new gear is ~50% more powerful than what the character had, so that would be:
    3000 int, 1190 crit rating (16.53%), 1248 haste rating (18.36%), 936 vers rating (11.01%)

    that's 3000 * (1.05 base crit + 0.1653 rating crit) * 1.1836 * 1.1101 =

    4790 DPS, a loss of about 20%.

    Your gear numbers might be going up, but your DPS is going down. When you account for the fact that most specs have extra scaling based on certain secondary stats, the real DPS loss is usually higher.

    There's a reason why many people freeze their characters at 110 or 111 for farming old raids, they're significantly more powerful than if they were max level (of course access to legendaries doesn't hurt either but people have done it in previous expansions too when that wasn't a factor).

    This kind of "damage goes down while you're leveling" has occurred in pretty much every expansion except Cataclysm I believe. And the only reason it didn't happen there was because they gave massive amounts of primary stats to your character (ie your leveling stats, not gear based stats). You gain relatively few base stats while leveling now so that one time was the exception rather than the rule.

    - - - Updated - - -

    And that wouldn't be just as jarring (if not more), when your character magically has their dps cut by 70% because your secondaries were "nerfed" to the ground?
    It will be significantly less jarring than deleveling because to de level you ultimately have to do the same thing. Deleveling doesn’t make the problem go away. Now your 50 scaling is off
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    Legion to BfA is messed up on many levels, mostly legendaries being lost, I wasn't referring to when they started squishing though. I was referring to the game before major borrowed power systems and squishes.

    Going from 60 in Vanilla to 70 in TBC you got more powerful
    Going from 70 in TBC to 80 in Wrath you got more powerful, etc.
    NONE of my math used any borrowed power system, squish, or anything of the like (all of which exacerbated it yes, but it wasn't required for it). It's literally just the combat ratings going from 17.62 rating per 1% crit to 72 rating per 1% crit (~4x as much rating required). The math would have applied the same squish or no, just the raw numbers would be about 20x as big.

    This has happened every single expansion to various degrees. The only question is does your gain in stats offset this rating reduction. Maybe it did upto cataclysm, but not from MoP on. But the primary reason for that is because the rating changes weren't as extreme (or in the case of Cataclysm, the massive increase in primary stats from leveling).
    60 -> 70 required 58% more rating
    70 -> 80 required 108% more rating
    80 -> 85 required 291% more rating
    85 -> 90 required 235% more rating
    90 -> 100 required 378% more rating
    100 -> 110 required 264% more rating
    110 -> 120 required 308% more rating.

    Does the significant increase in borrowed power make it more extreme? Yeah of course. But power is still "reset" every expansion. A higher level character in the same gear will always* do less damage than a lower level character until the "old expansion damage bonus" kicks in.

    * unless leveling grants massive amounts of primary stats like in Cataclysm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    It will be significantly less jarring than deleveling because to de level you ultimately have to do the same thing. Deleveling doesn’t make the problem go away. Now your 50 scaling is off
    Straight up wrong.

    Level squish method
    Level 60 pre-squish character -> level 50 post squish character -> level 60 post squish character
    50% crit before the squish -> 50% crit after the squish -> 16% crit

    Your method:
    Level 60 pre-squish character -> level 60 post squish character
    50% crit before the squish -> 16% crit after the squish

    The first method is changed across the next 10 levels, yours is done instantly. Thus the first method is objectively less jarring.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    It will be significantly less jarring than deleveling because to de level you ultimately have to do the same thing. Deleveling doesn’t make the problem go away. Now your 50 scaling is off
    And this means that previous expansion endgame gear won’t be completely useless if they scale them at slightly below or at the same level 60 currrent LFR raids.

    This would make it easier for blizzard to make the entire game relevant both old and new content, forever.
    Last edited by RemasteredClassic; 2020-09-20 at 01:15 AM.

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