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  1. #101
    Every year a thread like this pops up beating this dead horse. First time I saw a thread like this was back in 2015, and Midwinter was already considering switching to Horde.

    No one at the high-end gives two fucks about the story, or aesthetics, or even racials now (since racials are so close). Mythic raiding has always had a small population, and that population keeps shrinking as more and more players get bored or get burned out. Recruitment of talented players is issue #1 for the absolute majority of progress guilds. It only makes sense that they all congregate to one single faction where they can easily recruit more players.

    And I keep seeing the same stupid suggestions being made:
    #1 Buff Alliance racials out the whazoo? It only swings the pendulum to the other end.
    #2 Give out free heroic/mythic quality loot like BFA did with the weekly PVP quest? Again, same as #1, either loot is too good and everyone transfers or no one bothers.
    #3 Provide free-transfers? This is not even a money problem.

    At this point, the ONLY solution is to open up cross-faction grouping, but Blizzard will NOT pull this lever unless absolutely necessary, because it will completely shit on their Horde vs Alliance motif, which is pretty much the beating heart of the entire Warcraft series. It's one of those red lines that Blizzard won't cross.
    When we looked at the relics of the precursors, we saw the height civilization can attain.
    When we looked at their ruins, we marked the danger of that height.
    - Keeper Annals

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Exodeus View Post
    By this reasoning shouldn't everyone be Alliance now for the shadowmeld skips.
    Shadowmeld skip is for MDI pulls. BE AoE silence did not require more than 1 big pull and AoE, what everyone could do.
    Legion also had trolls for raiding and somehow Blizzard "forgot" to check certain horder racials for raiding even in BfA - Azshara with trolls for easymode.

    Fixing it will be difficult and will have its price.

    What would it need to even consider progress raiders to change to ally? 3% DPS/HSP? 5% DPS/HPS? What kind of buffs could offset the issues with recruiting?

    The sitting it out and letting first gather numbers (for years) will break the game in one way or another. They cant even blame the community for this, because its negligence over years and multiple expansions.
    Last edited by Ange; 2020-09-22 at 08:01 AM.
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  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by corebit View Post
    At this point, the ONLY solution is to open up cross-faction grouping, but Blizzard will NOT pull this lever unless absolutely necessary, because it will completely shit on their Horde vs Alliance motif, which is pretty much the beating heart of the entire Warcraft series. It's one of those red lines that Blizzard won't cross.
    They could do it, and push the faction conflict upon guilds. Faction won't be relevant but faction guild can start wars and such, it'll make guild relevant in the lore and it'll bring more incentive on joigning one and playing as groups

    They could just make five official guilds for the lore and PC's guild just have to pledge or be affiliated with one of those guilds.

    'faction' conflict with still be there ( aka for example a Worgen / NE guilds that is at war with a Forsaken guild ) but you can group with whoemever you like anyway

  4. #104
    Well, i want to point out that there aren't more raiders for every guild moving over. Some of them will crumble and be absorbed by bigger ones. So, jumping ship for greener pastures isn't always the best choice.

    But, yes. This is a problem Blizzard needed to have solved yesterday.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    it actually gives conpletely accurate representation about high end raiding and that is what we are talking about here, so your source is completely valid.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Not possible after BfA anymore unfortunately
    Game health is much much much much more important than mmo lore.

    Faction split does not make sense.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Engal View Post
    They could do it, and push the faction conflict upon guilds. Faction won't be relevant but faction guild can start wars and such, it'll make guild relevant in the lore and it'll bring more incentive on joigning one and playing as groups

    They could just make five official guilds for the lore and PC's guild just have to pledge or be affiliated with one of those guilds.

    'faction' conflict with still be there ( aka for example a Worgen / NE guilds that is at war with a Forsaken guild ) but you can group with whoemever you like anyway
    Honestly, they just need to untie the player characters from factions. Alliance and Horde can still exist just like we have Aldor and Scryers.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Ange View Post
    Shadowmeld skip is for MDI pulls. BE AoE silence did not require more than 1 big pull and AoE, what everyone could do.

    And lets not forget the slightly bit of caster imbalance for raiding in LEGION with troll racials. But comparing RAID participation with mythic+ makes not much sense, since the participation difference is so far appart.
    M+ doesn't suffer nearly as bad as mythic raiding does when it comes to faction issue solely because the activity is completely cross-realm, repeatable, and requires a much smaller group of people. There probably is still some imbalance in terms of being able to pug or if you want to be a serious consistent push group, but the activity itself doesn't have nearly as high of a barrier of entry that doesn't help mythic raid recruitment.


    Quote Originally Posted by corebit View Post
    At this point, the ONLY solution is to open up cross-faction grouping, but Blizzard will NOT pull this lever unless absolutely necessary, because it will completely shit on their Horde vs Alliance motif, which is pretty much the beating heart of the entire Warcraft series. It's one of those red lines that Blizzard won't cross.
    Yeah, I've been of this mind that it'll be the last solution they'll go towards, although there are some solutions to allow cross-raiding that would preserve the integrity of factions (but that's a long post ). I will say the issue in the minds at Blizz is that there's way more attachment to faction than there is race... because if race was the ultimate character identity, the faction identity could be much more malleable.

    So what could be done? Well, I think what would have to fall first is their sole argument that I've seen them officially use to keep the current mythic raiding restrictions: "server identity". However, I think it's a terrible argument at this point in the game, where you have cross-realm and sharding in the entire game... except mythic raiding. Of the things Blizz could do to make life easier for Alliance mythic raiders (and honestly easier for all mythic raiders) is to get rid of the cross-realm restrictions completely instead of keeping it server-only until the top 100 Hall of Fame is fill (and you could keep the Hall of Fame and make it a guild-only achievement, as this detection tech already exists in the game).

    Furthermore, removing RaidID lockouts in favor of loot lockouts allows flexibility when it comes to trialing players or just trying to help other mythic raiding guilds (whether they're sister guilds or friends of the guild). There's a reason normal/heroic raiding is so popular, as is M+: barrier of entry is significantly lower compared to mythic raiding, and I'm not talking about skill/gear. I'm not saying make it flex raiding, but being able to bring in anyone you need versus stopping the raid because you're stuck at 19 out of 20 players is not fun for anyone... and I know everyone's been there at some point. Normal/heroic raiding does not suffer from this at all.

    There's another aspect that Blizz is addressing in Shadowlands, so I feel it's on the radar: make mythic raiding the place to get the best loot in the most "efficient" manner. I know there's threads crying a river about the changes to M+ and the end-of-dungeon loot chests, but it's severely killed mythic raiding recruitment. M+ in BfA almost completely negated mythic raiding, as you could put in barely any effort to get the maximum rewards... aka, it was the most efficient method to gain power on a character, and it wasn't even close. The amount of time, organization, effort, etc. that is required to mythic raid, adding on all the previous restrictions I mentioned above concerning realm-only and RaidID, completely overshadows what is required for M+... yet the gear rewards don't reflect that at all. Most players that raid at least have some sense of wanting to gain player power, but if you can get guaranteed max ilvl loot knocking out a +15 key in roughly 20min versus wiping on a mythic raid boss for the 300th time in a row and maybe getting a piece... it's fairly obvious that there's a reward imbalance. Honestly, there should probably be more ilvl disparity in mythic raids compared to the maximum achievable from M+... maybe even heroic should have some edge, as well.
    “Society is endangered not by the great profligacy of a few, but by the laxity of morals amongst all.”
    “It's not an endlessly expanding list of rights — the 'right' to education, the 'right' to health care, the 'right' to food and housing. That's not freedom, that's dependency. Those aren't rights, those are the rations of slavery — hay and a barn for human cattle.”
    ― Alexis de Tocqueville

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Hinastorm View Post
    Game health is much much much much more important than mmo lore.

    Faction split does not make sense.
    Yes, but there is a point when you simply can not go back anymore without completely sacrificing any form of coherent storyline. At that point you can just stop trying and put NPCs without background everywhere to give you quests without quest text and raid encounters without story or boss emotes.
    That point would be reached is after BfA factions would be abolished. As I said before, only way to really do it would be massive time skip of multiple thousand (more likely ten thousands, because of t he elves and draenei) of years.

    It's time for a reboot either way.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by agentsi View Post
    Yes, they do. Look at any of the charts or polls on this forum where people are asked what they prefer to play, outside of end game. Always horde winning. Always.
    Well, this is the latest thread about this topic. And it shows, that you are wrong.

    And the Horde is not aesthetically more pleasing. If not for BElfs giving the Horde one beautiful race, the Horde would be extinct by now. Horde has 50% BElf population. Players play Horde DESPITE their aethetics, not BECAUSE of them.

    Horde's popularity is purely based on high-end. That's why Blizzard does not care for it: Their data shows even numbers for Horde and Alliance, just on Alliance side there are more casual players, that like to chill and enjoy the game, while on Horde side you have the more competitive crowd that likes to PvP (Alliance is always at 30% WM bonus) and higher forms of PvE.

  10. #110
    The Lightbringer Minikin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    Blizzards attempts at destroying the Horde were for nothing it seems.
    In my anecdotal experience playing since early BC I have yet to come across people who place game lore over actual game play or raid team.
    Blood Elves were based on a STRONG request from a poll of Asian players where many remarked on the Horde side that they and their girlfriends wanted a non-creepy femme race to play (Source)

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    In my anecdotal experience playing since early BC I have yet to come across people who place game lore over actual game play or raid team.
    Hi, I am such a person.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Teamrandom View Post
    Recently I started looking for a new guild and I was quite suprised to see that on my server which is one of the highest populated EU Alliance realms probably 15 out of top 20 raiding guilds has moved or is moving to Horde on either Kazzak/Twisting Nether/Draenor etc. I was wondering what is the reason for this.

    Surely it is not going to make things better with the faction imbalance at the moment but I think there is anoher reason which might be bigger number of customers for PvE boosting. Does anyone have any "internal" info on what is happening ? This is not a coincidence of just a couple of people deciding to play Horde because they like it - it is a massive migration of high end raiding guilds and there must be a specific reason for this.
    The reason is that there are WAY more decent raiders in Horde, so it's easier to fill your roster if you are a raiding guild, or even improve it. That is the main reason. There might be additional, way less important reasons, but those alone wouldn't be enough of an incentive for a guild migration.

  13. #113
    They shouldn't have implemented gameplay differences between the factions. No Paladin/Shaman split and no racials.

    But I guess they could have never forseen this.

  14. #114
    The Lightbringer Minikin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    Hi, I am such a person.
    Hence the anecdotal my good sir

    I dunno. I've never cared much for the whole faction identity thing. I joined with my friends and finally this expac we all went horde after being (them since vanilla, me since BC) alliance for ages.

    And instantly its now so much easier to find groups. I've geared my alts in record time.
    Blood Elves were based on a STRONG request from a poll of Asian players where many remarked on the Horde side that they and their girlfriends wanted a non-creepy femme race to play (Source)

  15. #115
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    Eventually alliance will just be a dead faction only for rpers, which it pretty much is already.

  16. #116
    First and foremost, blizzard cling to the idea that the 2 factions are what makes WoW...well, WoW, but i think it`s more what it used to be, rather than what it is, we have come a long way since orcs vs humans and i personally think that some sort of cross factioon play would be good.

    My reasoning is that i just came back from about a 7 month break from retail, i played alliance pretty much always, then in legion my guild decided to go horde, but when i came back from the 7 month break, before even logging in i switched my main to alliance, since i honestly like the races better, but it was a shitshow honestly, getting anyone for mythic+ was a nightmare, constantly getting ganked because i was always outnumbered anywhere/anytime, so this was more of a trial than anything else.

    Waited the 72 hour CD on faction change, switched back to horde, got into a big active guild (which were few and far between on alliance side it felt like) and starting pumping m+ right away...

    never going back

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Lazuli View Post
    Eventually alliance will just be a dead faction only for rpers, which it pretty much is already.
    I used to say this in vanilla/TBC days as a joke (minus the dead thing), mostly, to tease some friends who were playing alliance. Still, every joke/tease has some dose of truth in it, so...

    Sadly, I don't think they can be any easy solution. It would be cool if they could somehow allow cross faction guilds and PvE grouping, so people could choose their faction based on what seems better to them (RP, aesthetics, story, whatever wise), but I don't think bliz would want to risk with such a big and fundamental change to their game. They'd get so much hate from RPers... For me, RP in such games should be a secondary thought, an afterthought at best. Gaming experience should be the top priority.

    Before cross-server grouping and linked servers, people were transferring to more active servers. Like I had transferred to an active PvE server early TBC, from a low pop dead for PvE raiding server, and it was money well spent. The gaming experience I got in that server was nothing like I could ever get on my old one.

    Now that we have such things, people are transferring to more active factions... People are looking to improve their gaming experience. That's normal and natural. That doesn't mean that you can't find a good gaming experience in alliance, especially if you are in a nice guild and you are playing with nice people. But still, there will be a time you'll need fresh blood to fill in your ranks for PvE raiding. And when you realize that this is way harder on alliance side, you'll get thoughts of migrating... Over time, a lot of guilds will choose to migrate, like they used to migrate from low pop servers to higher ones. Now it's between factions.

    And sadly, until the problem becomes big enough, I don't think bliz will address it. So, if you can afford the extra cash to have a better gaming experience, why not transfer? Can start with just 1 character, maybe even start fresh if you don't want to pay for a transfer. When many more do it and the problem becomes too big and apparent, maybe they'll take serious steps towards fixing it.

    After all, if we all transfer to horde, they'll either fix this problem or delete Alliance, like you delete and empty folder, after you've moved all the files to a different one. Not much thought required, just hit delete. :P
    Last edited by orsraunia; 2020-09-22 at 09:28 AM.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Teamrandom View Post
    Recently I started looking for a new guild and I was quite suprised to see that on my server which is one of the highest populated EU Alliance realms probably 15 out of top 20 raiding guilds has moved or is moving to Horde on either Kazzak/Twisting Nether/Draenor etc. I was wondering what is the reason for this.

    Surely it is not going to make things better with the faction imbalance at the moment but I think there is anoher reason which might be bigger number of customers for PvE boosting. Does anyone have any "internal" info on what is happening ? This is not a coincidence of just a couple of people deciding to play Horde because they like it - it is a massive migration of high end raiding guilds and there must be a specific reason for this.
    Small difference, that caused snowball effect with time. Alliance has always looked weaker, than Horde. It was always about "Alliance are good guys and Horde are baddies". Blizzard tried to pull this card once again in BFA, but failed. And it was always several factors, that helped to balance Alliance and Horde. Humans, that are the most popular MMO race, just because majority of players don't have imagination and play as themselves (or as opposite gender for obvious reasons), instead of picking some fantasy race. Plus stronger racials. All that things were balanced at some point. Allied races are the last nail into Alliance coffin.

  19. #119
    Having opposing factions in any MMO is just straight up bad game design. Blizzard have been getting away with it for longer than I thought they would, but the whole system is starting to really collapse now.

    I have been playing nothing but Horde since day one of release, but in terms of races, location, architecture etc I definitely think that the Alliance is a much nicer faction. I hope some day that there will be no faction divide at all and Blizzard does away with this outdated objectively bad and unnecessary limitation.

  20. #120
    The Lightbringer Nordheim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashelía View Post
    Sad truth the answer to that question is Bloodlust.

    Already in Classic that pulled the hardcore raiders towards Horde and the Alliance side really never recovered even though Bloodlust became avaviable to both sides.
    Bloodlust was added in TBC together with Heroism.

    Bloodlust only existed to the Horde prior to TBC in Warcraft 3.

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