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  1. #261
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    He might feel bad it was still the right call, if you are at the very bottom and people refuse to get the help they need to function at 100% and incite unrest they are dead-weight.

    Emotions should not matter with such choices.
    He isn't quite so sold on it having been the right call, especially in light of the ramifications that later resulting from his decision - ramifications he replicated, to his dismay, with Umbric's people. The hypocrisy would be inherent in his claim that he acts in the manner that is best for Silvermoon's security and stability, but in so doing he creates yet more enemies that oppose Silvermoon at every turn (e.g. the Silver Covenant, the Void Elves). Emotions don't matter in that equation, but his actions still speak for themselves.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  2. #262
    Quote Originally Posted by kflay View Post
    Of course they absorbed fel magic. Do the starting zone. They have fel crystals there and their eyes are green.
    Fel crystals were used mostly to fuel their magics which rebuilded Silvermoon. We've also seen elves tapping those crystals during TBC, there are actually reports of elves who tapped into fel magics. It was not case of every elf in Quel'thalas though. Their green eyes are product of Fel radiation which was all over Quel'thalas after Rommath and his followers used fel magics to rebuild the city.

    That is completely wrong. They were exiled because they refused to absorb fel magic and spoke out against it. They became wretched because of their withdrawal of magic.
    You are not entirely correct either. Elves become wretched because of overindulgence of mana. Their withdrawal caused severe pains and eventually lead to huge mental struggles. As they had to control their hunger for magic, there was a danger they'll give into their addiction and lose control, resulting in consuming too much mana. That magical energy then warped their bodies and turned them into wretched. Most of wretched were also in an almost mindless state, because of addiction took hold over them. It is also likely that transformation into wretched damaged their brains. Magical withdrawal itself did not directly transformed blood elves, we've seen that happen only to Nightborne.

    Elves who were exiled definitely spoke against mana tapping from living creatures, considering such act amoral if there are means to control addiction by meditations and willpower. The fact that sin'dorei decided to use fel magics to rebuild Silvermoon did not help their relations either. The only high elves known to become wretched are those of Quel'lithien which consumed energies of corrupted artifact, but we don't have any details of that.

  3. #263
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    He isn't quite so sold on it having been the right call, especially in light of the ramifications that later resulting from his decision - ramifications he replicated, to his dismay, with Umbric's people. The hypocrisy would be inherent in his claim that he acts in the manner that is best for Silvermoon's security and stability, but in so doing he creates yet more enemies that oppose Silvermoon at every turn (e.g. the Silver Covenant, the Void Elves). Emotions don't matter in that equation, but his actions still speak for themselves.
    The high elves could have caused civil unrest while the scourge and trolls were on their doorstep and they had zero allies, you are correct there would have been a better choice, sending them to the front line so that they die fighting their enemies , the void elves are a threat to their whole society, by merely existing,them being part of the enemies is still preferably to them being part of their society and causing arguably more damage from the inside.

  4. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    The high elves could have caused civil unrest while the scourge and trolls were on their doorstep and they had zero allies, you are correct there would have been a better choice, sending them to the front line so that they die fighting their enemies , the void elves are a threat to their whole society, by merely existing,them being part of the enemies is still preferably to them being part of their society and causing arguably more damage from the inside.
    Killing his own people through a directed genocide (on the heels of what the Scourge had already done) would be worse than the exile, so that probably wouldn't help an argument against hypocrisy in any real sense - he would go from well-meaning hypocrite to complete monster following your example. As for Umbric's people, if he had kept them loyal but distant from the Sunwell they'd be no worse than Shadow Priests or Voidmages when it came to exploring the Void - they may not have even become Void Elves if they were protected and valued by Silvermoon to some degree. Now, as Void Elves loyal to the Alliance, each of them is a danger to the Sunwell and *all* of them are manifestly hostile to Silvermoon. He didn't exactly make the situation better in the end.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  5. #265
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Killing his own people through a directed genocide (on the heels of what the Scourge had already done) would be worse than the exile, so
    It isn't outright killing them it is confronting them directly with the problem, if their comrades die due to their weakened state to the undead or trolls they should finally realize the error of their way, or can remain stubborn, sticking to their principles, defending their home with a higher chance of dying, due to their choice. Instead of demanding their people purposely weaken themselves while they are on the brink of total destruction.


    - he would go from well-meaning hypocrite to complete monster following your example.
    Those are basic tactics, do you see any tactician as a monster?

    As for Umbric's people, if he had kept them loyal but distant from the Sunwell they'd be no worse than Shadow Priests or Voidmages when it came to exploring the Void - they may not have even become Void Elves if they were protected and valued by Silvermoon to some degree.
    No, they were worse and very reckless, it is something Umbric realized himself. After all directly after his transformation he literally tells you he played with powers beyond his comprehension and paid the price. The only difference is what happened in telogrus rift would have happened in a city filled with civilians.

    Now, as Void Elves loyal to the Alliance, each of them is a danger to the Sunwell and *all* of them are manifestly hostile to Silvermoon. He didn't exactly make the situation better in the end.
    Yeah because the guy lets get his emotions get in the way quite often, same with Alleria she had no place at the sunwell. Umbric should have been given a choice, either stop his reckless pursuit of the void or be dealt with like the twilights hammer.



    that probably wouldn't help an argument against hypocrisy in any real sense
    Lor'themar is a hypocrite but it relates to night elves the blood elves were angry at their exile yet they did the same to the high elves. That one works in these circumstances, in a way. But looking at both high elves and void elves, he was very lenient.

  6. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    That's entirely subjective - and given that Lor'themar relates that he feels deeply conflicted about the High Elven exile in In the Shadow of the Sun, it still paints the later exile of Umbric's people as hypocritical on his part.
    if I'm not mistaken the latest Lor'themar's poem also shows this
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Horde's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

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  7. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    It isn't outright killing them it is confronting them directly with the problem, if their comrades die due to their weakened state to the undead or trolls they should finally realize the error of their way, or can remain stubborn, sticking to their principles, defending their home with a higher chance of dying, due to their choice. Instead of demanding their people purposely weaken themselves while they are on the brink of total destruction.

    Those are basic tactics, do you see any tactician as a monster?
    Sending dissidents who are already in a weakened state (regardless of reason) to pointedly die in a doomed mission so as to remove a stumbling block to one's political hegemony? Yes, that's basically textbook genocide and the actions of a monstrous tyrant. Exile didn't improve the lot of either the Blood Elves or the High Elves, it fundamentally sent the exiles to what could be their doom in any case, as was the case with those in Quel'Lithien who were unable to defend themselves from Nathanos' assault. The High Elves were Lor'themar's people as well, native sons and daughters of Silvermoon who fought in the Third War to defend their nation - as Regent Lord, it was his duty to protect and defend them even if it made his job difficult, because that's what a leader is supposed to do. He exiled them because he lacked the political ability and wherewithal to successfully reckon with a growing schism - the exile of the High Elves was a failure to lead on Lor'themar's part. The same is true of his treatment of Umbric's people, and has shown something of a pattern in Lor'themar's leadership of Silvermoon, at any sign of internal division he tends to exile dissident elements as opposed to attempting any forms of diplomacy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    No, they were worse and very reckless, it is something Umbric realized himself. After all directly after his transformation he literally tells you he played with powers beyond his comprehension and paid the price. The only difference is what happened in telogrus rift would have happened in a city filled with civilians.
    Umbric was reckless with the artifact he found in Telogrus Rift, yes; and his recklessness was informed by his need to prove himself and his followers as having value - a product of their exile. The situation could've easily been resolved by not exiling Umbric put giving him and his followers a safe place to do their Void research away from the Sunwell. Their transformation also wouldn't have happened if Alleria wasn't a factor, as Nexus-Prince Durzaan was tracking her specifically, well before she came to Telogrus Rift.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Yeah because the guy lets get his emotions get in the way quite often, same with Alleria she had no place at the sunwell. Umbric should have been given a choice, either stop his reckless pursuit of the void or be dealt with like the twilights hammer.
    There are a number of diplomatic solutions between those outcomes that were entirely left off the table.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Lor'themar is a hypocrite but it relates to night elves the blood elves were angry at their exile yet they did the same to the high elves. That one works in these circumstances, in a way. But looking at both high elves and void elves, he was very lenient.
    As I said previously, Lor'themar is a hypocrite in many ways - I agree on the Night Elven point as well, but feel it's equally applicable to the Void Elves and his handling of their plight.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  8. #268
    Pandaren Monk Ardenaso's Avatar
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    also, above all else - Blood Elves are still the real High Elves, and the Alliance High Elves are posers
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Horde's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

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  9. #269
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Sending dissidents who are already in a weakened state (regardless of reason) to pointedly die in a doomed mission so as to remove a stumbling block to one's political hegemony? Yes, that's basically textbook genocide and the actions of a monstrous tyrant.
    And? It would have been a more effective solution to the problem.


    Exile didn't improve the lot of either the Blood Elves or the High Elves, it fundamentally sent the exiles to what could be their doom in any case, as was the case with those in Quel'Lithien who were unable to defend themselves from Nathanos' assault. The High Elves were Lor'themar's people as well, native sons and daughters of Silvermoon who fought in the Third War to defend their nation - as Regent Lord, it was his duty to protect and defend them even if it made his job difficult, because that's what a leader is supposed to do.
    His job is to look after the well being of the nation and such decision always cause deaths, using the "high elves" in such a manner would have reduced the casualties among those who were willing to pull their weight and the high elves would have been confronted with the consequences of their decision, probably rethinking their stance.

    He exiled them because he lacked the political ability and wherewithal to successfully reckon with a growing schism - the exile of the High Elves was a failure to lead on Lor'themar's part. The same is true of his treatment of Umbric's people, and has shown something of a pattern in Lor'themar's leadership of Silvermoon, at any sign of internal division he tends to exile dissident elements as opposed to attempting any forms of diplomacy.
    He exiled them due to the state the kingdom was in, it was on the brink of utmost collapse ,those who refused the methods actually caused a schism in their society and as such endangered the entire population. At that point you make a hard decision there is no real room for compromise at such a state, either they shut up and pull their weight or they get cut loose to use precious resources, where it is needed most.



    Umbric was reckless with the artifact he found in Telogrus Rift, yes; and his recklessness was informed by his need to prove himself and his followers as having value - a product of their exile. The situation could've easily been resolved by not exiling Umbric put giving him and his followers a safe place to do their Void research away from the Sunwell. Their transformation also wouldn't have happened if Alleria wasn't a factor, as Nexus-Prince Durzaan was tracking her specifically, well before she came to Telogrus Rift.
    Very debatable and I don't see it that way, studying the void to that degree is utterly retarded.


    There are a number of diplomatic solutions between those outcomes that were entirely left off the table.
    In those circumstances? Not really again the trolls were at their doorstep and the scourge was coming at them hard, the only reason they had a fighting chance, where the methods rommath brought back with him and even then it was a very close call.



    As I said previously, Lor'themar is a hypocrite in many ways - I agree on the Night Elven point as well, but feel it's equally applicable to the Void Elves and his handling of their plight.
    It isn't because both of them were a fundamental threat to the very survival of the kingdom.
    Last edited by Combatbulter; 2020-09-28 at 03:20 PM.

  10. #270
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    And? It would have been a more effective solution to the problem.
    Mass murder is almost always markedly effective at removing a leader's troubles, that doesn't make it good leadership, or meritorious by any means.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    His job is to look after the well being of the nation and such decision always cause deaths, using the "high elves" in such a manner would have reduced the casualties among those who were willing to pull their weight and the high elves would have been confronted with the consequences of their decision, probably rethinking their stance.
    The High Elves were part of the nation he was empowered to protect - killing (or exiling) them because it was expedient is not good leadership no matter how you attempt to spin it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    He exiled them due to the state the kingdom was in, it was on the brink of utmost collapse ,those who refused the methods actually caused a schism in their society and as such endangered the entire population. At that point you make a hard decision there is no real room for compromise at such a state, either they shut up and pull their weight or they get cut loose to use precious resources, where it is needed most.
    Except he didn't make a hard decision, he made an easy and shortsighted one - something he admits to himself later on. The hard decision would've been mediating with the High Elven dissidents, hearing their concerns, and at least attempting to reach some kind of compromise. In light of the fact that the High Elves basically overcame their Arcane addiction in time doesn't help the argument that Lor'themar ultimately did the right thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Very debatable and I don't see it that way, studying the void to that degree is utterly retarded.
    Except for the fact that they were successful, granted access to potent new abilities, and now serve the Alliance as weapons against Silvermoon and the Horde.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    In those circumstances? Not really again the trolls were at their doorstep and the scourge was coming at them hard, the only reason they had a fighting chance, where the methods rommath brought back with him and even then it was a very close call.
    The exile of the High Elves changes nothing of that scenario, though; as they were exiled they couldn't serve in Silvermoon's defense as it was.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    It isn't because both of them were a fundamental threat to the very survival of the kingdom.
    I don't think so, and neither does Lor'themar ultimately (in the case of the High Elves at least).
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  11. #271
    Quote Originally Posted by kflay View Post
    1. I don't see anything
    2. Mana crystals aren't fel crystals

    I don't get what you are trying to tell me

  12. #272
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Mass murder is almost always markedly effective at removing a leader's troubles, that doesn't make it good leadership, or meritorious by any means.
    Depends entirely on the circumstances, in this case it would defend the vast majority of the people, would force them to come to terms with their choice and most likely abandon it, thus simply rejoining the fold and those who were so fanatic they would willingly endanger themselves and their people, because they refused to drain mana bearing vermin are prime candidates for a darwin award.

    The High Elves were part of the nation he was empowered to protect - killing (or exiling) them because it was expedient is not good leadership no matter how you attempt to spin it.
    If it means the nation and its people survive, yes it is.


    Except he didn't make a hard decision, he made an easy and shortsighted one - something he admits to himself later on. The hard decision would've been mediating with the High Elven dissidents, hearing their concerns, and at least attempting to reach some kind of compromise. In light of the fact that the High Elves basically overcame their Arcane addiction in time doesn't help the argument that Lor'themar ultimately did the right thing.
    Hard on ones conscience, like many of these are, he could have made such a risky decision and as such endangering every last person in Quel'thalas, or take the safe route.


    Except for the fact that they were successful, granted access to potent new abilities, and now serve the Alliance as weapons against Silvermoon and the Horde.
    They were successful in turning themselves into eldritch abominations on the brink of self destruction and utter madness, that should all be killed for everyone's safety.


    The exile of the High Elves changes nothing of that scenario, though; as they were exiled they couldn't serve in Silvermoon's defense as it was.
    Which is why I said he was too lenient

    I don't think so, and neither does Lor'themar ultimately (in the case of the High Elves at least).
    He offers the olive branch, once the kingdom is no longer on the brink of destruction and yes he does, which why he said he couldn't lead a nation divided back then

  13. #273
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Depends entirely on the circumstances, in this case it would defend the vast majority of the people, would force them to come to terms with their choice and most likely abandon it, thus simply rejoining the fold and those who were so fanatic they would willingly endanger themselves and their people, because they refused to drain mana bearing vermin are prime candidates for a darwin award.
    Except they didn't really endanger anyone - they overcame the addiction, even though it took time and effort, they did through will what the Blood Elves relied on mana tapping to work around. The presupposed immediacy of this "danger" is something I strongly disagree with, as it's not borne out by the facts of the High Elves fate later on. The High Elves could've helped protect and aid Silvermoon as well, even if their effectiveness might've been slightly blunted - it would've been better to have them as a resource as opposed to exiling them and not having them at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    If it means the nation and its people itself survive, yes it is.
    They would've survived either way, so that's a moot point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Hard on ones conscience, like many of these are, he could have made such a risky decision and as such endangering every last person in Quel'thalas, or take the safe route.
    Given that the risk and danger here are being grossly overestimated, not so much. He took a safe and expedient decision that he ultimately came to regret.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    They were successful in turning themselves into eldritch abominations on the brink of self destruction and utter madness, that should all be killed for everyone's safety.
    They seem to be relatively sane and stable insofar as that goes. Sure, a few of them have gone south, but then so have many Blood Elves (e.g. Kael'thas himself).

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    He offers the olive branch, once the kingdom is no longer on the brink of destruction and yes he does, which why he said he couldn't lead a nation divided back then
    Except he knows he was wrong, thus the regret and second-guessing of his own actions.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  14. #274
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Except they didn't really endanger anyone - they overcame the addiction, even though it took time and effort, they did through will what the Blood Elves relied on mana tapping to work around. The presupposed immediacy of this "danger" is something I strongly disagree with, as it's not borne out by the facts of the High Elves fate later on. The High Elves could've helped protect and aid Silvermoon as well, even if their effectiveness might've been slightly blunted - it would've been better to have them as a resource as opposed to exiling them and not having them at all.
    Yeah as I said use them as meatshields, until they learn their lesson, but ultimately they were dividing the nation at a time it was absolutely not possible to squabble and yet here these selfish idiots were, unwilling to drain mana from vermin, because they found it distasteful, thus not operating at 100% even risking permanent damage, while people needed to pull their weight.


    They would've survived either way, so that's a moot point.
    How do you know that? If the high elves kept pushing for the repeal of Rommath's teaching the whole kingdom could have collapsed, the magisters were the sole reason the elves were in a position to fight back to begin with. Without them Quel'thalas would have remained scourge controlled.


    Given that the risk and danger here are being grossly overestimated, not so much. He took a safe and expedient decision that he ultimately came to regret.
    Because he hated doing it, yet seeing it as a necessity and as we can see he saw himself as justified enough to do it again.

    They seem to be relatively sane and stable insofar as that goes. Sure, a few of them have gone south, but then so have many Blood Elves (e.g. Kael'thas himself).
    Many of their npcs are half mad and their whispers are worse than what demon hunters experience and those have a lofty fail rate of 80%

    Except he knows he was wrong, thus the regret and second-guessing of his own actions.
    He acknowledges it as morally wrong, not that the decision itself was wrong.
    Last edited by Combatbulter; 2020-09-28 at 04:20 PM.

  15. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Yeah as I said use them as meatshields, until they learn their lesson, but ultimately they were dividing the nation at a time it was absolutely not possible to squabble and yet here these selfish idiots were, unwilling to drain mana from vermin, because they found it distasteful, thus not operating at 100% even risking permanent damage, while people needed to pull their weight.
    Again, their exile ensured each High Elves weight was effectively 0%, so any contribution they made would've been better than the result of losing their number entirely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    How do you know that? If the high elves kept pushing for the repeal of Rommath's teaching the whole kingdom could have collapsed, the magisters were the sole reason the elves were in a position to fight back to begin with. Without them Quel'thalas would have remained scourge controlled.
    A repeal of Rommath's teaching wouldn't be a compromise, either; it would be the High Elves getting their way completely. A compromise would be like allowing the High Elves to sequester themselves to overcome the addiction through other methods (as we know can be done now), while the Magisters, Blood Knights, and Farstriders continued the use of mana-tapping to combat the immediate symptoms of addiction. Those High Elves who were hale and hearty enough to do so while serving in any group could continue doing so, as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Because he hated doing it, yet seeing it as a necessity and as we can see he saw himself as justified enough to do it again.
    Belied by the fact that is was neither a necessity, nor in his view actually justified.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Many of their npcs are half mad and their whispers are worse than what demon hunters experience and those have a lofty fail rate of 80%
    Not sure how you arrived at either figure. We've seen perhaps a handful of Void Elves lose their grip, and nowhere near enough to achieve that weirdly arbitrary figure of 80%.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    He acknowledges it as morally wrong, not that the decision itself was wrong.
    A distinction without a difference. He was wrong, he recognizes it and regrets it - you can't really get more clear than that.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  16. #276
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Again, their exile ensured each High Elves weight was effectively 0%, so any contribution they made would've been better than the result of losing their number entirely.
    They were no longer a drain on the resources of the kingdom either and a possible civil unrest was averted.


    A repeal of Rommath's teaching wouldn't be a compromise, either; it would be the High Elves getting their way completely. A compromise would be like allowing the High Elves to sequester themselves to overcome the addiction through other methods (as we know can be done now), while the Magisters, Blood Knights, and Farstriders continued the use of mana-tapping to combat the immediate symptoms of addiction. Those High Elves who were hale and hearty enough to do so while serving in any group could continue doing so, as well.
    Why the hell would you sequester them? With the whole kingdom on fire? You are making another mistake here the high elves never overcame their addiction, only a few of them did and among those were people who suffered permanent physical and mental damage.



    Belied by the fact that is was neither a necessity, nor in his view actually justified.
    I disagree you might see it differently, but exiling these utterly selfish leeches was one of the better options.



    Not sure how you arrived at either figure. We've seen perhaps a handful of Void Elves lose their grip, and nowhere near enough to achieve that weirdly arbitrary figure of 80%
    .

    The 80% is from the demon hunters, who are not as mentally assaulted as the void elves who hear thousands of whispers and the universal rule prior to Alleria was a whooping 100%, the void elves are walking time bombs, they simply cannot be trusted.


    A distinction without a difference. He was wrong, he recognizes it and regrets it - you can't really get more clear than that.
    Sure......... which is why he did it yet again. He acknowledges that some of his decision were indefensible and still necessary.

  17. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    They were no longer a drain on the resources of the kingdom either and a possible civil unrest was averted.
    A drain on what resources - and a possibility of civil unrest that was never tested, nor guaranteed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Why the hell would you sequester them? With the whole kingdom on fire? You are making another mistake here the high elves never overcame their addiction, only a few of them did and among those were people who suffered permanent physical and mental damage.
    Why wouldn't you sequester them? Give them a place to congregate where they can do whatever they like while the bulk of the Blood Elves go about the tasks of restoration and rebuilding. The exile of the High Elves happened after Silvermoon had been largely restored, after Kael'thas had departed for Outland. It wasn't in the midst of the Third War or in the days immediately following it.

    The High Elves are still around, going to show that they found a way to overcome the addiction without reliance on Rommath's teaching. Either consuming energy from magical artifacts or simply willing themselves through the worst of the addiction - they survived and even thrived. They could've done so without having to be exiled.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    I disagree you might see it differently, but exiling these utterly selfish leeches was one of the better options.
    How exactly were they "leeches?" If anything, the Blood Elves are the true leeches in this equation, literally leeching Arcane energies from the wildlife of Quel'Thalas. You're assuming that the High Elves could not contribute anything to Quel'Thalas, but that's not borne out by the facts of the matter. They might not have been operating to the same degree as the Blood Elves due to combating the addiction, but that doesn't imply they would be a total drain on Silvermoon's economy either. Mana tapping was itself only a palliative for the condition, and it had it also had a pronounced downside: producing Wretched Elves who were actually an active danger to Silvermoon's populace.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    The 80% is from the demon hunters, who are not as mentally assaulted as the void elves who hear thousands of whispers and the universal rule prior to Alleria was a whooping 100%, the void elves are walking time bombs, they simply cannot be trusted.
    Demon Hunters are not Void Elves, and not a good basis of comparison. We also know very little about prior adherents of the Void, but we know enough to put the 100% figure to bed. Natalie Seline didn't fall to Void corruption, and she was both a user of Xal'atath as well as an avid explorer of Void magic. Plenty of heroic Shadow Priests and Warlocks also use Void magic without falling to corruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Sure......... which is why he did it yet again. He acknowledges that some of his decision were indefensible and still necessary.
    That he did it again is part of the cornerstone showing he's a hypocrite who keeps making enemies for Quel'Thalas as soon as he's confronted with internal dissent. One can't really win by losing. He acknowledged the first time was a mistaken on his part, yet he failed to learn from that mistake and so basically did the same thing again, this time with even worse results for him and his people.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  18. #278
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    A drain on what resources - and a possibility of civil unrest that was never tested, nor guaranteed.



    Why wouldn't you sequester them? Give them a place to congregate where they can do whatever they like while the bulk of the Blood Elves go about the tasks of restoration and rebuilding. The exile of the High Elves happened after Silvermoon had been largely restored, after Kael'thas had departed for Outland. It wasn't in the midst of the Third War or in the days immediately following it.

    The High Elves are still around, going to show that they found a way to overcome the addiction without reliance on Rommath's teaching. Either consuming energy from magical artifacts or simply willing themselves through the worst of the addiction - they survived and even thrived. They could've done so without having to be exiled.



    How exactly were they "leeches?" If anything, the Blood Elves are the true leeches in this equation, literally leeching Arcane energies from the wildlife of Quel'Thalas. You're assuming that the High Elves could not contribute anything to Quel'Thalas, but that's not borne out by the facts of the matter. They might not have been operating to the same degree as the Blood Elves due to combating the addiction, but that doesn't imply they would be a total drain on Silvermoon's economy either. Mana tapping was itself only a palliative for the condition, and it had it also had a pronounced downside: producing Wretched Elves who were actually an active danger to Silvermoon's populace.



    Demon Hunters are not Void Elves, and not a good basis of comparison. We also know very little about prior adherents of the Void, but we know enough to put the 100% figure to bed. Natalie Seline didn't fall to Void corruption, and she was both a user of Xal'atath as well as an avid explorer of Void magic. Plenty of heroic Shadow Priests and Warlocks also use Void magic without falling to corruption.



    That he did it again is part of the cornerstone showing he's a hypocrite who keeps making enemies for Quel'Thalas as soon as he's confronted with internal dissent. One can't really win by losing. He acknowledged the first time was a mistaken on his part, yet he failed to learn from that mistake and so basically did the same thing again, this time with even worse results for him and his people.
    God forbid that someone has to make a hard choice, unlike your precious Anduin for whom the writers create a Golden path of barely any ressistance.

  19. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    God forbid that someone has to make a hard choice, unlike your precious Anduin for whom the writers create a Golden path of barely any ressistance.
    What does Anduin have to do with anything being discussed here?
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  20. #280
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    A drain on what resources - and a possibility of civil unrest that was never tested, nor guaranteed.
    Magical artifacts to sate their hunger for example, because they are too arrogant and selfish to drain from vermin.


    Why wouldn't you sequester them? Give them a place to congregate where they can do whatever they like while the bulk of the Blood Elves go about the tasks of restoration and rebuilding.
    Heck no ! That is precisely what I meant with a drain of resources, you put them to work.

    The exile of the High Elves happened after Silvermoon had been largely restored, after Kael'thas had departed for Outland. It wasn't in the midst of the Third War or in the days immediately following it.
    The kingdom was on the brink of collapsing up until the forsaken started to help them out, all of it was basically a giant house of cards, that could have collapsed at any moment.


    The High Elves are still around, going to show that they found a way to overcome the addiction without reliance on Rommath's teaching. Either consuming energy from magical artifacts or simply willing themselves through the worst of the addiction - they survived and even thrived. They could've done so without having to be exiled.
    No they did not, they didn't overcome shit they still needed resources to feed their hunger and these resources are a drain on the society as a whole, they basically a bunch of arrogant assholes, who refuse to eat insects and demand steak instead while their nation faces starvation.


    How exactly were they "leeches?" If anything, the Blood Elves are the true leeches in this equation, literally leeching Arcane energies from the wildlife of Quel'Thalas. You're assuming that the High Elves could not contribute anything to Quel'Thalas, but that's not borne out by the facts of the matter. They might not have been operating to the same degree as the Blood Elves due to combating the addiction, but that doesn't imply they would be a total drain on Silvermoon's economy either.
    Because they were unwilling to lower themselves to feed on mana bearing vermin and in their arrogance did not budge from that pathetic standpoint, due to their arrogance and pride, most of them later leeching off humans.


    Mana tapping was itself only a palliative for the condition, and it had it also had a pronounced downside: producing Wretched Elves who were actually an active danger to Silvermoon's populace.
    Sure the high elves of Quel'litihen sure were right and did not produce any wretched whatsoever.


    Demon Hunters are not Void Elves, and not a good basis of comparison. We also know very little about prior adherents of the Void, but we know enough to put the 100% figure to bed. Natalie Seline didn't fall to Void corruption, and she was both a user of Xal'atath as well as an avid explorer of Void magic. Plenty of heroic Shadow Priests and Warlocks also use Void magic without falling to corruption.
    Canon sources say otherwise, Alleria is stated to be the first mortal to not fall to the whispers, so Natalie Seline is corrupted end of story.

    https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ba...s/allied-races

    Many have sought to harness the corruptive magic of the Void. Most who tried have fallen into madness. Determined to use this power for the good of Azeroth, Alleria Windrunner is the first mortal to succeed at defying the shadow's whispers.



    That he did it again is part of the cornerstone showing he's a hypocrite who keeps making enemies for Quel'Thalas as soon as he's confronted with internal dissent. One can't really win by losing. He acknowledged the first time was a mistaken on his part, yet he failed to learn from that mistake and so basically did the same thing again, this time with even worse results for him and his people.
    Where the hell does he say that his decision in itself was wrong? And no the monsters aren't part of his society so it is a clear win, he might face them on the field of battle but at least these things don't dwell among his people.
    Last edited by Combatbulter; 2020-09-28 at 06:11 PM.

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