Lor'themar was the regent of Quel'Thalas following Kael'Thas' departure to Outland - I don't think he was at all ignorant of Rommath's use of Fel to rebuild Silvermoon, and his lack of opposition to the plan demonstrates tacit collusion with it regardless of any personal misgivings he may have had.
Umbric's people were exiled long before they even became Void Elves, the only thing there were guilty of was opposing Rommath and his views about the Void. While the Void is indeed a threat to the Sunwell, it's one that can be managed through proximity (which is likely why the many Blood Elven Shadow Priests don't set it off). In that sense, exile was unnecessary and with Lor'themar's experience in In the Shadow of the Sun with the High Elven exiles in the Eastern Plaguelands, I would say very hypocritical on his part. Umbric's people could have been kept distant but loyal, allowed to explore their research into the Void with Silvermoon's approval as long as they obeyed the command to stay clear of the Sunwell so to avoid damaging it inadvertently. But instead exile was chosen, and as Regent-Lord of Silvermoon Lor'themar shares in the outcome of that sentence - driving Umbric and his people straight into the Alliance's fold.
As per the Void Elf recruitment quest:
It was the exile, as well as Alleria's actions, that made joining the Alliance an imperative for Umbric - and Lor'themar and Rommath are responsible for that, just as they are responsible for the Silver Covenant doing so when they were exiled in turn, for refusing to follow Kael's instructions i.e. Mana Tapping.Alleria Windrunner says: I sense the powers at your command. They are... considerable. You would make valuable allies of the Alliance.
Magister Umbric says: Silvermoon turned its back on us long ago. Today we are reborn... and it is fitting that we walk a new path. From this day forth, the Alliance has our loyalty.
"We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead
"We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead
He might feel bad it was still the right call, if you are at the very bottom and people refuse to get the help they need to function at 100% and incite unrest they are dead-weight.
Emotions should not matter with such choices.
And considering the void elves, he was far too lenient, these guys should have been treated like twilight hammer cultists.
- - - Updated - - -
Those crystals always looked like that
https://wow.gamepedia.com/File:Dath%...Silvermoon.png
Last edited by Combatbutler; 2020-09-28 at 12:23 PM.
He isn't quite so sold on it having been the right call, especially in light of the ramifications that later resulting from his decision - ramifications he replicated, to his dismay, with Umbric's people. The hypocrisy would be inherent in his claim that he acts in the manner that is best for Silvermoon's security and stability, but in so doing he creates yet more enemies that oppose Silvermoon at every turn (e.g. the Silver Covenant, the Void Elves). Emotions don't matter in that equation, but his actions still speak for themselves.
"We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead
Fel crystals were used mostly to fuel their magics which rebuilded Silvermoon. We've also seen elves tapping those crystals during TBC, there are actually reports of elves who tapped into fel magics. It was not case of every elf in Quel'thalas though. Their green eyes are product of Fel radiation which was all over Quel'thalas after Rommath and his followers used fel magics to rebuild the city.
You are not entirely correct either. Elves become wretched because of overindulgence of mana. Their withdrawal caused severe pains and eventually lead to huge mental struggles. As they had to control their hunger for magic, there was a danger they'll give into their addiction and lose control, resulting in consuming too much mana. That magical energy then warped their bodies and turned them into wretched. Most of wretched were also in an almost mindless state, because of addiction took hold over them. It is also likely that transformation into wretched damaged their brains. Magical withdrawal itself did not directly transformed blood elves, we've seen that happen only to Nightborne.That is completely wrong. They were exiled because they refused to absorb fel magic and spoke out against it. They became wretched because of their withdrawal of magic.
Elves who were exiled definitely spoke against mana tapping from living creatures, considering such act amoral if there are means to control addiction by meditations and willpower. The fact that sin'dorei decided to use fel magics to rebuild Silvermoon did not help their relations either. The only high elves known to become wretched are those of Quel'lithien which consumed energies of corrupted artifact, but we don't have any details of that.
The high elves could have caused civil unrest while the scourge and trolls were on their doorstep and they had zero allies, you are correct there would have been a better choice, sending them to the front line so that they die fighting their enemies , the void elves are a threat to their whole society, by merely existing,them being part of the enemies is still preferably to them being part of their society and causing arguably more damage from the inside.
Killing his own people through a directed genocide (on the heels of what the Scourge had already done) would be worse than the exile, so that probably wouldn't help an argument against hypocrisy in any real sense - he would go from well-meaning hypocrite to complete monster following your example. As for Umbric's people, if he had kept them loyal but distant from the Sunwell they'd be no worse than Shadow Priests or Voidmages when it came to exploring the Void - they may not have even become Void Elves if they were protected and valued by Silvermoon to some degree. Now, as Void Elves loyal to the Alliance, each of them is a danger to the Sunwell and *all* of them are manifestly hostile to Silvermoon. He didn't exactly make the situation better in the end.
"We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead
It isn't outright killing them it is confronting them directly with the problem, if their comrades die due to their weakened state to the undead or trolls they should finally realize the error of their way, or can remain stubborn, sticking to their principles, defending their home with a higher chance of dying, due to their choice. Instead of demanding their people purposely weaken themselves while they are on the brink of total destruction.
Those are basic tactics, do you see any tactician as a monster?- he would go from well-meaning hypocrite to complete monster following your example.
No, they were worse and very reckless, it is something Umbric realized himself. After all directly after his transformation he literally tells you he played with powers beyond his comprehension and paid the price. The only difference is what happened in telogrus rift would have happened in a city filled with civilians.As for Umbric's people, if he had kept them loyal but distant from the Sunwell they'd be no worse than Shadow Priests or Voidmages when it came to exploring the Void - they may not have even become Void Elves if they were protected and valued by Silvermoon to some degree.
Yeah because the guy lets get his emotions get in the way quite often, same with Alleria she had no place at the sunwell. Umbric should have been given a choice, either stop his reckless pursuit of the void or be dealt with like the twilights hammer.Now, as Void Elves loyal to the Alliance, each of them is a danger to the Sunwell and *all* of them are manifestly hostile to Silvermoon. He didn't exactly make the situation better in the end.
Lor'themar is a hypocrite but it relates to night elves the blood elves were angry at their exile yet they did the same to the high elves. That one works in these circumstances, in a way. But looking at both high elves and void elves, he was very lenient.that probably wouldn't help an argument against hypocrisy in any real sense
The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!
I make Warcraft 3 Reforged HD custom models and I'm also an HD model reviewer.
Sending dissidents who are already in a weakened state (regardless of reason) to pointedly die in a doomed mission so as to remove a stumbling block to one's political hegemony? Yes, that's basically textbook genocide and the actions of a monstrous tyrant. Exile didn't improve the lot of either the Blood Elves or the High Elves, it fundamentally sent the exiles to what could be their doom in any case, as was the case with those in Quel'Lithien who were unable to defend themselves from Nathanos' assault. The High Elves were Lor'themar's people as well, native sons and daughters of Silvermoon who fought in the Third War to defend their nation - as Regent Lord, it was his duty to protect and defend them even if it made his job difficult, because that's what a leader is supposed to do. He exiled them because he lacked the political ability and wherewithal to successfully reckon with a growing schism - the exile of the High Elves was a failure to lead on Lor'themar's part. The same is true of his treatment of Umbric's people, and has shown something of a pattern in Lor'themar's leadership of Silvermoon, at any sign of internal division he tends to exile dissident elements as opposed to attempting any forms of diplomacy.
Umbric was reckless with the artifact he found in Telogrus Rift, yes; and his recklessness was informed by his need to prove himself and his followers as having value - a product of their exile. The situation could've easily been resolved by not exiling Umbric put giving him and his followers a safe place to do their Void research away from the Sunwell. Their transformation also wouldn't have happened if Alleria wasn't a factor, as Nexus-Prince Durzaan was tracking her specifically, well before she came to Telogrus Rift.
There are a number of diplomatic solutions between those outcomes that were entirely left off the table.
As I said previously, Lor'themar is a hypocrite in many ways - I agree on the Night Elven point as well, but feel it's equally applicable to the Void Elves and his handling of their plight.
"We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead
also, above all else - Blood Elves are still the real High Elves, and the Alliance High Elves are posers
The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!
I make Warcraft 3 Reforged HD custom models and I'm also an HD model reviewer.
And? It would have been a more effective solution to the problem.
His job is to look after the well being of the nation and such decision always cause deaths, using the "high elves" in such a manner would have reduced the casualties among those who were willing to pull their weight and the high elves would have been confronted with the consequences of their decision, probably rethinking their stance.Exile didn't improve the lot of either the Blood Elves or the High Elves, it fundamentally sent the exiles to what could be their doom in any case, as was the case with those in Quel'Lithien who were unable to defend themselves from Nathanos' assault. The High Elves were Lor'themar's people as well, native sons and daughters of Silvermoon who fought in the Third War to defend their nation - as Regent Lord, it was his duty to protect and defend them even if it made his job difficult, because that's what a leader is supposed to do.
He exiled them due to the state the kingdom was in, it was on the brink of utmost collapse ,those who refused the methods actually caused a schism in their society and as such endangered the entire population. At that point you make a hard decision there is no real room for compromise at such a state, either they shut up and pull their weight or they get cut loose to use precious resources, where it is needed most.He exiled them because he lacked the political ability and wherewithal to successfully reckon with a growing schism - the exile of the High Elves was a failure to lead on Lor'themar's part. The same is true of his treatment of Umbric's people, and has shown something of a pattern in Lor'themar's leadership of Silvermoon, at any sign of internal division he tends to exile dissident elements as opposed to attempting any forms of diplomacy.
Very debatable and I don't see it that way, studying the void to that degree is utterly retarded.Umbric was reckless with the artifact he found in Telogrus Rift, yes; and his recklessness was informed by his need to prove himself and his followers as having value - a product of their exile. The situation could've easily been resolved by not exiling Umbric put giving him and his followers a safe place to do their Void research away from the Sunwell. Their transformation also wouldn't have happened if Alleria wasn't a factor, as Nexus-Prince Durzaan was tracking her specifically, well before she came to Telogrus Rift.
In those circumstances? Not really again the trolls were at their doorstep and the scourge was coming at them hard, the only reason they had a fighting chance, where the methods rommath brought back with him and even then it was a very close call.There are a number of diplomatic solutions between those outcomes that were entirely left off the table.
It isn't because both of them were a fundamental threat to the very survival of the kingdom.As I said previously, Lor'themar is a hypocrite in many ways - I agree on the Night Elven point as well, but feel it's equally applicable to the Void Elves and his handling of their plight.
Last edited by Combatbutler; 2020-09-28 at 03:20 PM.
Mass murder is almost always markedly effective at removing a leader's troubles, that doesn't make it good leadership, or meritorious by any means.
The High Elves were part of the nation he was empowered to protect - killing (or exiling) them because it was expedient is not good leadership no matter how you attempt to spin it.
Except he didn't make a hard decision, he made an easy and shortsighted one - something he admits to himself later on. The hard decision would've been mediating with the High Elven dissidents, hearing their concerns, and at least attempting to reach some kind of compromise. In light of the fact that the High Elves basically overcame their Arcane addiction in time doesn't help the argument that Lor'themar ultimately did the right thing.
Except for the fact that they were successful, granted access to potent new abilities, and now serve the Alliance as weapons against Silvermoon and the Horde.
The exile of the High Elves changes nothing of that scenario, though; as they were exiled they couldn't serve in Silvermoon's defense as it was.
I don't think so, and neither does Lor'themar ultimately (in the case of the High Elves at least).
"We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead