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  1. #281
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    What does Anduin have to do with anything being discussed here?
    You obviously compare everything Lor'themar did to the Golden standart that Anduin set. Everything has to be done the moral way or its wrong. All those walls of text you made are just dishonest attempts to hide that fact.

  2. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Magical artifacts to sate their hunger for example, because they are too arrogant and selfish to drain from vermin.
    Silvermoon, like Dalaran, is probably drowning in magical artifacts with room to spare - somehow I doubt this would be an impossible draw on Silvermoon, just as it wasn't on Dalaran (which likewise had been destroyed in the Third War). It is also neither arrogant nor selfish to refuse to drain the life directly out of living beings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Heck no ! That is precisely what I meant with a drain of resources, you put them to work.
    They're not slaves to simply be "put to work," they were citizens of Quel'Thalas just like their Blood Elven peers. They also had no stated compunctions about carrying their weight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    The kingdom was on the brink of collapsing up until the forsaken started to help them out, all of it was basically a giant house of cards, that could have collapsed at any moment.
    "Maybe," "could have," "possibly," and the litany of other possibilities that were again never even tested. Handled properly the High Elven contingent could've been a boon to Silvermoon - just like they were during the Zandalari crisis in TBC, and especially with Sylvanas having forced Lor'themar's hand to join her in Northrend.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    No they did not, they didn't overcome shit they still needed resources to feed their hunger and these resources are a drain on the society as a whole, they basically a bunch of arrogant assholes, who refuse to eat insects and demand steak instead while their nation faces starvation.

    Because they were unwilling to lower themselves to feed on mana bearing vermin and in their arrogance did not budge from that pathetic standpoint, due to their arrogance and pride, most of them later leeching off humans.
    That's deeply overstating their plight as well as drawing up a number of completely subjective denouncements that betray a personal bias on your part. The High Elves never asked for additional resources or to "eat steak" as you colorfully put it - they just wanted Lor'themar to recognize their decision not to indulge in mana tapping. He refused due to his own worries about internal strife. They fact that arbitration of some kind was never even attempted goes to show that there were no terms as you imply above. We don't even know if the High Elven contingent would've asked for additional resources, because they never got the chance to even do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Canon sources say otherwise, Alleria is stated to be the first mortal to not fall to the whispers, so Natalie Seline is corrupted.
    Natalie Seline was a champion of the Conclave and aided Azeroth against fighting the Legion - so if she's "corrupted," then corruption is a super low bar and nothing to actually worry about in the long term. You can take your narrative pick.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Where the hell does he say that his decision in itself was wrong? And no the monsters aren't part of his society so it is a clear win, he might face them on the field of battle but at least these things don't dwell among his people.
    Originally Posted by In the Shadow of the Sun
    Lor'themar stood and turned to leave. They had caught him off guard, and the walls around him no longer held the assurance of solidity. He saw Aurora stand and stare him down, her chin high and defiant. Neither she nor Renthar spoke another word, and it seemed as if the sheer force of their hatred pushed him from the room.

    He had no reason to fight them. He could, perhaps, offer his palms in penance, but they would only spit upon them, and in truth he could not find it in his heart to fault them. If he had held any hope of atonement before—and perhaps he had—the Plaguelands' desolation had smothered it, as it did all that lived and dreamed. These bridges had burned long ago, his own hand setting them to flame. (Source)
    He seeks penance, and when the High Elves refuse to grant it he can't fault them for their actions, nor even find it in his heart to fault them for doing so. So yes, he admits he was wrong, and when trying to right that wrong as best he could he can't fault the High Elves for finding him contemptable.

    And I said before, if Lor'themar had handled the Umbric situation differently there may not have even been Void Elves to begin with. We'll never know, now.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    You obviously compare everything Lor'themar did to the Golden standart that Anduin set. Everything has to be done the moral way or its wrong. All those walls of text you made are just dishonest attempts to hide that fact.
    No, at no point did I mention Golden, or Anduin - I'm talking about the High Elves, Blood Elves, Void Elves, and Lor'themar's errors in judgment. The only one who's made a bad faith comparison here is you, and I can only assume in an attempt to dishonestly detract from an argument you dislike. I even framed the loss of Umbric's people to the Alliance as a bad thing, further detracting from your spurious and incorrect argument.
    Last edited by Aucald; 2020-09-28 at 06:30 PM.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  3. #283
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    No, at no point did I mention Golden, or Anduin - I'm talking about the High Elves, Blood Elves, Void Elves, and Lor'themar's errors in judgment. The only one who's made a bad faith comparison here is you, and I can only assume in an attempt to dishonestly detract from an argument you dislike. I even framed the loss of Umbric's people to the Alliance as a bad thing, further detracting from your spurious and incorrect argument.
    You dont say it but you mean it. Admit it.

  4. #284
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Silvermoon, like Dalaran, is probably drowning in magical artifacts with room to spare - somehow I doubt this would be an impossible draw on Silvermoon, just as it wasn't on Dalaran (which likewise had been destroyed in the Third War). It is also neither arrogant nor selfish to refuse to drain the life directly out of living beings.
    These artifacts, might be needed for something else, for defense etc. and yes it is arrogant and selfish if it inconveniences most of society.



    They're not slaves to simply be "put to work," they were citizens of Quel'Thalas just like their Blood Elven peers. They also had no stated compunctions about carrying their weight.
    Yes and they had to work too to ensure the kingdoms survival, choosing to be in top shape to do so, instead of handicapping themselves, out of idiocy.


    "Maybe," "could have," "possibly," and the litany of other possibilities that were again never even tested. Handled properly the High Elven contingent could've been a boon to Silvermoon - just like they were during the Zandalari crisis in TBC, and especially with Sylvanas having forced Lor'themar's hand to join her in Northrend.
    At the same time they could have been a giant detriment, possibly spreading their foolish ideas.



    That's deeply overstating their plight as well as drawing up a number of completely subjective denouncements that betray a personal bias on your part. The High Elves never asked for additional resources or to "eat steak" as you colorfully put it - they just wanted Lor'themar to recognize their decision not to indulge in mana tapping. He refused due to his own worries about internal strife. They fact that arbitration of some kind was never even attempted goes to show that there were no terms as you imply above. We don't even know if the High Elven contingent would've asked for additional resources, because they never got the chance to even do so.
    Their plight is a pathetic one and fully on themselves I can't see anyone who makes such a ridiculously stupid decision in any positive light, the fact that other dissenters were not exiled speaks for itself. To be perfectly honest High elves disgust me.

    Natalie Seline was a champion of the Conclave and aided Azeroth against fighting the Legion - so if she's "corrupted," then corruption is a super low bar and nothing to actually worry about in the long term. You can take your narrative pick.
    My narrative pick is Natalie is a walking timebomb, waiting to backstab people at a certain moment, like the usual void crazies, as current canon states.



    Originally Posted by In the Shadow of the Sun
    Lor'themar stood and turned to leave. They had caught him off guard, and the walls around him no longer held the assurance of solidity. He saw Aurora stand and stare him down, her chin high and defiant. Neither she nor Renthar spoke another word, and it seemed as if the sheer force of their hatred pushed him from the room.

    He had no reason to fight them. He could, perhaps, offer his palms in penance, but they would only spit upon them, and in truth he could not find it in his heart to fault them. If he had held any hope of atonement before—and perhaps he had—the Plaguelands' desolation had smothered it, as it did all that lived and dreamed. These bridges had burned long ago, his own hand setting them to flame. (Source)
    He seeks penance, and when the High Elves refuse to grant it he can't fault them for their actions, nor even find it in his heart to fault them for doing so. So yes, he admits he was wrong, and when trying to right that wrong as best he could he can't fault the High Elves for finding him contemptable.
    That does not mean he thinks his decision was wrong, heck he justified it a few paragraphs earlier while talking with Halduron, he just understands perfectly why they are pissed.



    https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/st...rthemar-theron

    I deal with the devil indeed, but the Sunwell may never have been restored had we not sunk to those levels. He and Aurora can sleep soundly, knowing they have never compromised their ethics, but if they deny that they prosper in the wake of those who have, then they delude themselves as much as I.


    Here I find myself so close to believing that the ends justify the means. But the ruins of the Magisters' Terrace will haunt me forever, reminding me of the fate I tempt with that thought. This is the line I walk, finally knowing that the actions I take in necessity are nonetheless indefensible. Those truths can never be reconciled, but sometimes I can hold them both side by side and almost understand. I might call this revelation profound if I were ignorant enough not to realize that I am only learning what Kael'thas, and Anasterian before him, had also learned in their turns. All we can do is walk the road we are given with such dignity as we can muster, each to our own glory or demise, and pray that there yet remains something of our own hearts when all is said and done. By the Sunwell, I hope that there will remain something of mine.

    And I said before, if Lor'themar had handled the Umbric situation differently there may not have even been Void Elves to begin with. We'll never know, now.
    Anyone who seriously studies the void deserves a bullet through the head.
    Last edited by Combatbulter; 2020-09-28 at 06:49 PM.

  5. #285
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    You dont say it but you mean it. Admit it.
    I'm not going to "admit" something patently untrue about myself, just to make you feel better about your own misgivings. You're simply wrong about the nature of my argument and you've sorely misjudged its nature. Simple as that.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  6. #286
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I'm not going to "admit" something patently untrue about myself, just to make you feel better about your own misgivings. You're simply wrong about the nature of my argument and you've sorely misjudged its nature. Simple as that.
    You keep trying to convince anyone about this, most people here already know the truth.

  7. #287
    Willing Traitors Vs Former Scourge Enslaved Victims.....

    I wonder what the difference is....

  8. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    These artifacts, might be needed for something else, for defense etc. and yes it is arrogant and selfish if it inconveniences most of society.
    Which is yet more speculation on your part, and again, we have no idea if these would even be requested by the High Elves in their convalescence. They might have even sought them out on their own at no real cost to Silvermoon's stock. It's not possible to know one way or the other, so calling them "arrogant and selfish" over something that we don't know would have happened seems premature.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Yes and they had to work too to ensure the kingdoms survival, choosing to be in top shape to do so, instead of handicapping themselves, out of idiocy.
    Who's to say they wouldn't have worked? They upkept the various lodges through the Eastern Kingdoms despite having no resources to draw on, so obviously they were able to make do with minimal resources. There's no implied handicap to speak of in that sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    At the same time they could have been a giant detriment, possibly spreading their foolish ideas.
    I see little in the way of detriment, and if their ideas became popular then what of it? The Sunwell has always been a singular point of failure for the High/Blood Elves - proven by the Third War and the devastating impact of its loss. I personally think it would be better for the High and Blood Elves to truly overcome their dependence on the Sunwell entirely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Their plight is a pathetic one and fully on themselves I can't see anyone who makes such a ridiculously stupid decision in any positive light, the fact that other dissenters were not exiled speaks for itself. To be perfectly honest High elves disgust me.
    I can't really say much beyond that that seems like a personal issue on your part, a subjective take that isn't really relevant to the political realities we're discussing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    My narrative pick is Natalie is a walking timebomb, waiting to backstab people at a certain moment, like the usual void crazies, as current canon states.
    The current canon doesn't actually state that. The fact that the whispers exist doesn't mean every single Void Elf is doomed to madness - whereas Alleria might've been the first to truly resist, she's no longer alone in that regard; she now has an entire people that have done and are doing the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    That does not mean he thinks his decision was wrong, heck he justified it a few paragraphs earlier while talking with Halduron, he just understands perfectly why they are pissed.
    He justifies it to Halduron, an attempt to rationalize something he already admitted to himself was a mistake he wanted to atone for in the text. You can't really atone or seek penance for something you thought was right, after all. He does understand why they're pissed, though; he understands it is because of him and his failure as a leader, which is why he can neither blame nor rebuke them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Anyone who seriously studies the void deserves a bullet through the head.
    Again, that may be your personal takeaway, but I don't think it's widely shared.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    I deal with the devil indeed, but the Sunwell may never have been restored had we not sunk to those levels. He and Aurora can sleep soundly, knowing they have never compromised their ethics, but if they deny that they prosper in the wake of those who have, then they delude themselves as much as I.
    More justification and rationalization - he knows he screwed it up, but he tries to conflate that into doing what had to be done. But the Sunwell could've been restored without such steps, as nothing that actually led to its renewal had anything to do with the High Elves or their exile. It wasn't even his hands that restored it, after all; it was the Shattered Sun Offensive in conjunction with the adventurers who aided them, and more directly Velen handing over the spark of M'uru. I don't find much merit in his arguments, and while they might soothe his conscious they don't really address the wrongs done beforehand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Here I find myself so close to believing that the ends justify the means. But the ruins of the Magisters' Terrace will haunt me forever, reminding me of the fate I tempt with that thought. This is the line I walk, finally knowing that the actions I take in necessity are nonetheless indefensible. Those truths can never be reconciled, but sometimes I can hold them both side by side and almost understand. I might call this revelation profound if I were ignorant enough not to realize that I am only learning what Kael'thas, and Anasterian before him, had also learned in their turns. All we can do is walk the road we are given with such dignity as we can muster, each to our own glory or demise, and pray that there yet remains something of our own hearts when all is said and done. By the Sunwell, I hope that there will remain something of mine.
    A concession to the grim truth of his failures in that regard, not a stirring speech lionizing his efforts.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    You keep trying to convince anyone about this, most people here already know the truth.
    "Most people" is a strange way to refer to yourself, as you're the only person making this argument. Lor'themar Theron is actually one of my favorite characters in WoW, and was long ago my pick to lead the Horde - but that doesn't mean I think he's perfect or hasn't made a number of mistakes.
    Last edited by Aucald; 2020-09-28 at 07:10 PM.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  9. #289
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    snip.
    As entertaining as this was, lets just say we will never agree on this matter.

    The current canon doesn't actually state that.
    The current canon states that Alleria is the first mortal to ever withstand the whispers, so yes any mortal prior to Alleria is corrupted.

  10. #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    The current canon states that Alleria is the first mortal to ever withstand the whispers, so yes anyone prior to Alleria is corrupted.
    I'm referring to the canon as to whether hearing the whispers of the Void invariably leads to corruption. Alleria may well have been the first, but she's not alone now - and we've no idea if Alleria or the rest of the Void Elves are manifestly doomed. Although I also don't think Seline is corrupted, it may be that she's never been tested as thoroughly as Alleria, or perhaps she doesn't hear the whispers of the Void in her mind - difficult to say. Either way, I think the danger of the Void is definitely overstated.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  11. #291
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Silvermoon, like Dalaran, is probably drowning in magical artifacts with room to spare - somehow I doubt this would be an impossible draw on Silvermoon, just as it wasn't on Dalaran (which likewise had been destroyed in the Third War). It is also neither arrogant nor selfish to refuse to drain the life directly out of living beings.



    They're not slaves to simply be "put to work," they were citizens of Quel'Thalas just like their Blood Elven peers. They also had no stated compunctions about carrying their weight.



    "Maybe," "could have," "possibly," and the litany of other possibilities that were again never even tested. Handled properly the High Elven contingent could've been a boon to Silvermoon - just like they were during the Zandalari crisis in TBC, and especially with Sylvanas having forced Lor'themar's hand to join her in Northrend.



    That's deeply overstating their plight as well as drawing up a number of completely subjective denouncements that betray a personal bias on your part. The High Elves never asked for additional resources or to "eat steak" as you colorfully put it - they just wanted Lor'themar to recognize their decision not to indulge in mana tapping. He refused due to his own worries about internal strife. They fact that arbitration of some kind was never even attempted goes to show that there were no terms as you imply above. We don't even know if the High Elven contingent would've asked for additional resources, because they never got the chance to even do so.



    Natalie Seline was a champion of the Conclave and aided Azeroth against fighting the Legion - so if she's "corrupted," then corruption is a super low bar and nothing to actually worry about in the long term. You can take your narrative pick.



    Originally Posted by In the Shadow of the Sun
    Lor'themar stood and turned to leave. They had caught him off guard, and the walls around him no longer held the assurance of solidity. He saw Aurora stand and stare him down, her chin high and defiant. Neither she nor Renthar spoke another word, and it seemed as if the sheer force of their hatred pushed him from the room.

    He had no reason to fight them. He could, perhaps, offer his palms in penance, but they would only spit upon them, and in truth he could not find it in his heart to fault them. If he had held any hope of atonement before—and perhaps he had—the Plaguelands' desolation had smothered it, as it did all that lived and dreamed. These bridges had burned long ago, his own hand setting them to flame. (Source)
    He seeks penance, and when the High Elves refuse to grant it he can't fault them for their actions, nor even find it in his heart to fault them for doing so. So yes, he admits he was wrong, and when trying to right that wrong as best he could he can't fault the High Elves for finding him contemptable.

    And I said before, if Lor'themar had handled the Umbric situation differently there may not have even been Void Elves to begin with. We'll never know, now.

    - - - Updated - - -



    No, at no point did I mention Golden, or Anduin - I'm talking about the High Elves, Blood Elves, Void Elves, and Lor'themar's errors in judgment. The only one who's made a bad faith comparison here is you, and I can only assume in an attempt to dishonestly detract from an argument you dislike. I even framed the loss of Umbric's people to the Alliance as a bad thing, further detracting from your spurious and incorrect argument.
    That group was the dumbest ever. They are offered help, they refuse and instead use a corrupt source that destroys them.

    lorthemar did well, anyone who endangers the sunwell is a traitor

  12. #292
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I'm referring to the canon as to whether hearing the whispers of the Void invariably leads to corruption. Alleria may well have been the first, but she's not alone now - and we've no idea if Alleria or the rest of the Void Elves are manifestly doomed. Although I also don't think Seline is corrupted, it may be that she's never been tested as thoroughly as Alleria, or perhaps she doesn't hear the whispers of the Void in her mind - difficult to say. Either way, I think the danger of the Void is definitely overstated.
    Alleria herself is convinced she will fall to its corruption and the sole reason she did not was her son. Their grasp on reality is fickle at best, the risk of the void far outweighs the benefits. It is so far the only cosmic power, mortals should under no circumstances mess with.

  13. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    That group was the dumbest ever. They are offered help, they refuse and instead use a corrupt source that destroys them.

    lorthemar did well, anyone who endangers the sunwell is a traitor
    They're pretty far from destroyed, and the Blood Elves should know all about using magic from a corrupted source the can destroy them given their usage of Fel magic. The underlying point, really; the Blood Elves had prior knowledge of how to deal with Umbric and his Void disciples, but didn't learn from or use any of that knowledge on a diplomatic level.

    I highly doubt Umbric or his disciples *wanted* to endanger the Sunwell, and with the right precautions wouldn't have done so willingly. A far cry from the current state of affairs.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Alleria herself is convinced she will fall to its corruption and the sole reason she did not was her son. Their grasp on reality is fickle at best, the risk of the void far outweighs the benefits. It is so far the only cosmic power, mortals should under no circumstances mess with.
    She's done well thus far, and she may have been doing so for hundreds of years relative to her own timeline in the Nether. People say similar things about Fel magic, after all; but there are plenty of good-aligned Warlocks who buck the trend, not to mention the Demon Hunters who were instrumental in safeguarding Azeroth from the Legion.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  14. #294
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    She's done well thus far, and she may have been doing so for hundreds of years relative to her own timeline in the Nether. People say similar things about Fel magic, after all; but there are plenty of good-aligned Warlocks who buck the trend, not to mention the Demon Hunters who were instrumental in safeguarding Azeroth from the Legion.
    Whether she does well for 100 years or a Thousand does not matter if she falls she could do untold damage due to the "trust" she build, not to mention blizz is increasing their hints that she is starting to fall.

    fel and void are hardly comparable, fel is corrupting power on its own, void is corrupting power, thousands of voices and visions in your head 24/7 for the rest of your life.

  15. #295
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    They're pretty far from destroyed, and the Blood Elves should know all about using magic from a corrupted source the can destroy them given their usage of Fel magic. The underlying point, really; the Blood Elves had prior knowledge of how to deal with Umbric and his Void disciples, but didn't learn from or use any of that knowledge on a diplomatic level.

    I highly doubt Umbric or his disciples *wanted* to endanger the Sunwell, and with the right precautions wouldn't have done so willingly. A far cry from the current state of affairs.

    - - - Updated - - -



    She's done well thus far, and she may have been doing so for hundreds of years relative to her own timeline in the Nether. People say similar things about Fel magic, after all; but there are plenty of good-aligned Warlocks who buck the trend, not to mention the Demon Hunters who were instrumental in safeguarding Azeroth from the Legion.
    They are destroyed they are no longer elves, they are monsters and we have the quest to kill them.

    About void elves, do you know what manslaughter is? What if they opened a portal that brought void monsters to silvermoon and killed hundreds of people?

    You may not have the intention of doing something bad but doing something dangerous like being drunk and running over people is a crime even if your intention was not to kill those people.

  16. #296
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    They are destroyed they are no longer elves, they are monsters and we have the quest to kill them.

    About void elves, do you know what manslaughter is? What if they opened a portal that brought void monsters to silvermoon and killed hundreds of people?

    You may not have the intention of doing something bad but doing something dangerous like being drunk and running over people is a crime even if your intention was not to kill those people.
    "Elf" is a pretty plastic identity in terms of the Warcraft universe - if the Nightborne are still Elves despite being saturated and altered by the Nightwell, then the Void Elves are still Elves despite being altered by the Void. Otherwise you're just drawing entirely arbitrary lines in the sand. The Night Elves might feel similarly about the High Elves, as well; but that doesn't make them right.

    Intent is always a factor when someone is adjudicating something like manslaughter. Someone who gets drunk and then behind the wheel of a vehicle takes a degree of blame upon themselves for not being cautious before becoming inebriated, even if it isn't the same as willfully running over people while sober or such. But in point of fact, we really don't know to what degree the Void is a threat to the Sunwell, and what (if anything) would happen if a Void Elf were to happen upon it. Alleria isn't the same thing as your standard Void Elf, after all; having consumed both the essence of a greater Void entity along with the remnant of a darkened Naaru - so her effect upon the Sunwell may have been unique (or even possibly engineered by Durzaan).
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  17. #297
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    "Elf" is a pretty plastic identity in terms of the Warcraft universe - if the Nightborne are still Elves despite being saturated and altered by the Nightwell, then the Void Elves are still Elves despite being altered by the Void. Otherwise you're just drawing entirely arbitrary lines in the sand. The Night Elves might feel similarly about the High Elves, as well; but that doesn't make them right.

    Intent is always a factor when someone is adjudicating something like manslaughter. Someone who gets drunk and then behind the wheel of a vehicle takes a degree of blame upon themselves for not being cautious before becoming inebriated, even if it isn't the same as willfully running over people while sober or such. But in point of fact, we really don't know to what degree the Void is a threat to the Sunwell, and what (if anything) would happen if a Void Elf were to happen upon it. Alleria isn't the same thing as your standard Void Elf, after all; having consumed both the essence of a greater Void entity along with the remnant of a darkened Naaru - so her effect upon the Sunwell may have been unique (or even possibly engineered by Durzaan).
    the wretched who refused lorthemar's help are not elves they are monsters like the naga are not elves. Do you think Lor'themar expelled them without giving them the opportunity to stop using the void? they didn't want to stop using the void so they were a danger.
    what would have been better for you? that we have a quest where void monsters devastate silvermoon and the destruction of sunwell to know that playing with void is bad? I prefer what we saw thanks.

  18. #298
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    the wretched who refused lorthemar's help are not elves they are monsters like the naga are not elves. Do you think Lor'themar expelled them without giving them the opportunity to stop using the void? they didn't want to stop using the void so they were a danger.
    what would have been better for you? that we have a quest where void monsters devastate silvermoon and the destruction of sunwell to know that playing with void is bad? I prefer what we saw thanks.
    In that case, Lor'themar should push other Horde leaders to exile all shadow priests, Forsaken cult of Forgotten Shadows and Shadowmoon Clan from the Horde, alongside some troll Witch doctors, since all these groups use Void and as part of the Horde, they are allowed to hang around any parts of Quel'thalas at any time they please. Since you are consistently saying being in Silvermoon is threat to Sunwell if you use Void, all these groups are potential danger.

  19. #299
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    the wretched who refused lorthemar's help are not elves they are monsters like the naga are not elves. Do you think Lor'themar expelled them without giving them the opportunity to stop using the void? they didn't want to stop using the void so they were a danger.
    what would have been better for you? that we have a quest where void monsters devastate silvermoon and the destruction of sunwell to know that playing with void is bad? I prefer what we saw thanks.
    The Wretched aren't people who refused Lor'themar's help - they're largely Blood Elves overindulged in various mana sources and as a result were mutated. I think both Rommath and Lor'themar overreacted to a possible threat to the Sunwell and never bothered with diplomacy, and I think it's also likely that Rommath felt threatened personally by Umbric's possible successful leveraging of the Void and what that could entail.

    I'm not sold on the certainty that we'd see "Void monsters devastate silvermoon and the destruction of Sunwell," either. As I said previously, the Void power that Alleria brought with her was nothing like what the Void Elves now are or the powers that Umbric was exploring. Using Alleria as the gauge for what Umbric might've done to the Sunwell is wrongheaded in my view - it's possible, but its equally possible that nothing would happen. Blood Elves use Void magic already as it is (Shadow Priests, Warlocks summoning Voidwalkers, etc. etc.), so the simple presence of Void-aligned magic or associated relics isn't itself a bridge too far, would seem.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  20. #300
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    The Wretched aren't people who refused Lor'themar's help - they're largely Blood Elves overindulged in various mana sources and as a result were mutated. I think both Rommath and Lor'themar overreacted to a possible threat to the Sunwell and never bothered with diplomacy, and I think it's also likely that Rommath felt threatened personally by Umbric's possible successful leveraging of the Void and what that could entail.

    I'm not sold on the certainty that we'd see "Void monsters devastate silvermoon and the destruction of Sunwell," either. As I said previously, the Void power that Alleria brought with her was nothing like what the Void Elves now are or the powers that Umbric was exploring. Using Alleria as the gauge for what Umbric might've done to the Sunwell is wrongheaded in my view - it's possible, but its equally possible that nothing would happen. Blood Elves use Void magic already as it is (Shadow Priests, Warlocks summoning Voidwalkers, etc. etc.), so the simple presence of Void-aligned magic or associated relics isn't itself a bridge too far, would seem.
    the elves of QuelLithein were offered help they rejected it now they are monsters.

    They made a decision to study the magic of darkhan and the void, it was dangerous for the sunwell personally with what we saw with alleria is enough for me, if you would have liked to see death and devastation all over Quelthalas I suppose that is your preference , I prefer this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaedan View Post
    In that case, Lor'themar should push other Horde leaders to exile all shadow priests, Forsaken cult of Forgotten Shadows and Shadowmoon Clan from the Horde, alongside some troll Witch doctors, since all these groups use Void and as part of the Horde, they are allowed to hang around any parts of Quel'thalas at any time they please. Since you are consistently saying being in Silvermoon is threat to Sunwell if you use Void, all these groups are potential danger.
    do you think the blood elves would allow anyone to enter the sunwell?

    quelthalas as sovereign state took a measure to protect the sunwell

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