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  1. #301
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    the elves of QuelLithein were offered help they rejected it now they are monsters.
    The Elves of Quel'Lithien were a minority of the Elves who became Wretched, as is easily seen by the numbers of Wretched who inhabit the Ruins of Silvermoon and its outlying areas such as the Falthrien Academy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    They made a decision to study the magic of darkhan and the void, it was dangerous for the sunwell personally with what we saw with alleria is enough for me, if you would have liked to see death and devastation all over Quelthalas I suppose that is your preference , I prefer this.
    As I said previously, I don't think this logic necessarily follows - so I don't agree that Umbric was an immediate threat to the Sunwell. I'm not completely convinced Alleria is, either; as I think there's a very real possibility she was set-up by Nether-Prince Durzaan.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  2. #302
    The irony here is that there is a clear parallel between the Ren'dorei led by Magister Umbric and the Quel'dorei of old led by Dath'remar. Both were exiled by the government because their ominous powers were deemed too dangerous for society. Both went onto an exodus and made unlikely alliances with humans. Theron and Rommath became just as petty and short-sighted as those who exiled the founders of Quel'thalas long ago, but since they are hypocrites they are oblivious to the obvious parallel.
    I will tell you what I told my own son when he picked up his first blade and played at being a soldier. Whatever your elders have told you... War is not glory. War is seeing people at their very worst and choosing to protect them anyway.

  3. #303
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    The Elves of Quel'Lithien were a minority of the Elves who became Wretched, as is easily seen by the numbers of Wretched who inhabit the Ruins of Silvermoon and its outlying areas such as the Falthrien Academy.



    As I said previously, I don't think this logic necessarily follows - so I don't agree that Umbric was an immediate threat to the Sunwell. I'm not completely convinced Alleria is, either; as I think there's a very real possibility she was set-up by Nether-Prince Durzaan.
    we were talking about when lorthemar went to offer help to those particular elves and i said they were fools for not accepting that help and now they are monsters.

    It's your opinion, I have mine. the void elves were able to stop studying the void.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    The irony here is that there is a clear parallel between the Ren'dorei led by Magister Umbric and the Quel'dorei of old led by Dath'remar. Both were exiled by the government because their ominous powers were deemed too dangerous for society. Both went onto an exodus and made unlikely alliances with humans. Theron and Rommath became just as petty and short-sighted as those who exiled the founders of Quel'thalas long ago, but since they are hypocrites they are oblivious to the obvious parallel.
    the highborne were experts in arcane magic, the void elves were playing magic they did not understand and had to be saved in the recruitment quest.

  4. #304
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    we were talking about when lorthemar went to offer help to those particular elves and i said they were fools for not accepting that help and now they are monsters.

    It's your opinion, I have mine. the void elves were able to stop studying the void.

    - - - Updated - - -



    the highborne were experts in arcane magic, the void elves were playing magic they did not understand and had to be saved in the recruitment quest.
    They were such experts of the arcane magic that they tried to convince the Kaldorei to keep them by... unleashing a devastating magical storm over the sacred forests of Ashenvale.

    Which is a clear parallel to Alleria tainting the Sunwell. Only in Alleria's case it was a genuine accident, while in Dath'remar's case it was straight-up stupidity.
    I will tell you what I told my own son when he picked up his first blade and played at being a soldier. Whatever your elders have told you... War is not glory. War is seeing people at their very worst and choosing to protect them anyway.

  5. #305
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    we were talking about when lorthemar went to offer help to those particular elves and i said they were fools for not accepting that help and now they are monsters.

    It's your opinion, I have mine. the void elves were able to stop studying the void.
    I don't disagree that Renthar and Aurora were foolish to deny Lor'themar's aid, but I also understand where they were coming from - especially in light of the fact that the original exile saw many of them slaughtered at Nathanos' order while Silvermoon did nothing to help, and actually put them in that predicament to begin with. They were deeply angry and aggrieved at Lor'themar, and they had every right to be so (as Lor'themar himself conceded in Shadow of the Sun).

    That anger later led to their corruption and deaths, which is regrettable and it could be argued could also be laid at Lor'themar's feet as well. I'm not personally going to blame him for what happened later, but Lor'themar himself might.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  6. #306
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I don't disagree that Renthar and Aurora were foolish to deny Lor'themar's aid, but I also understand where they were coming from - especially in light of the fact that the original exile saw many of them slaughtered at Nathanos' order while Silvermoon did nothing to help, and actually put them in that predicament to begin with. They were deeply angry and aggrieved at Lor'themar, and they had every right to be so (as Lor'themar himself conceded in Shadow of the Sun).

    That anger later led to their corruption and deaths, which is regrettable and it could be argued could also be laid at Lor'themar's feet as well. I'm not personally going to blame him for what happened later, but Lor'themar himself might.
    if they are offered help and they reject it and then decide to use a corrugated source of magic and it is their fault. lorthemar did the right thing by offering help after they did something stupid

  7. #307
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    if they are offered help and they reject it and then decide to use a corrugated source of magic and it is their fault. lorthemar did the right thing by offering help after they did something stupid
    Lor'themar offered help after the Sunwell was restored, post-TBC but prior to WotLK. The High Elves at Quel'Lithien were corrupted later on, at some point during Cata - these two events aren't necessary connected. Lor'themar also knew he wouldn't be received well (obviously), and relates as much in In the Shadow of the Sun. Given what he had done to them beforehand, his meager assistance was viewed more or less as a slap in the face.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  8. #308
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Lor'themar offered help after the Sunwell was restored, post-TBC but prior to WotLK. The High Elves at Quel'Lithien were corrupted later on, at some point during Cata - these two events aren't necessary connected. Lor'themar also knew he wouldn't be received well (obviously), and relates as much in In the Shadow of the Sun. Given what he had done to them beforehand, his meager assistance was viewed more or less as a slap in the face.
    what a fool of them! If they had accepted the help now they would be fine.

  9. #309
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    what a fool of them! If they had accepted the help now they would be fine.
    That's hindsight for you, I suppose.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  10. #310
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    the elves of QuelLithein were offered help they rejected it now they are monsters.

    They made a decision to study the magic of darkhan and the void, it was dangerous for the sunwell personally with what we saw with alleria is enough for me, if you would have liked to see death and devastation all over Quelthalas I suppose that is your preference , I prefer this.

    - - - Updated - - -

    do you think the blood elves would allow anyone to enter the sunwell?

    quelthalas as sovereign state took a measure to protect the sunwell
    We actually don't know what protocols they have for entrance to Sunwell plateau. I guess they will not permit just anyone.

    My point was that if you constantly claim presence of void users within Silvermoon or Quel'thalas is a direct danger to the Sunwell, why blood elves does not request to exile all Horde void users? Why just elves are such a problem?

    We've seen a void user had to be in direct contact with Sunwell. It was also Alleria, very special case, with very unique powers different to other void elves. We don't know if regular void elves would trigger the same event. When Alleria was just in Silvermoon on her political mission, nothing happened. Letting void researchers in Silvermoon would not affect Sunwell and there would be experts on void in a case Sunwell would be ever threatened by the Void from outside source. These measures you speak of were not needed for safety of Sunwell.

    As @Aucald mentioned, exile of Umbric lead directly to transformation into void elves, which definitely pose more threat to Sunwell then just mere elves using Void. Lor'themar is actually responsible for creating more threats to Sunwell by doing so, not to mention he showed he did not learned from his past lessons and is still a leader who puts his own political interests above good and unity of his people.

  11. #311
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaedan View Post
    We've seen a void user had to be in direct contact with Sunwell. It was also Alleria, very special case, with very unique powers different to other void elves. We don't know if regular void elves would trigger the same event. When Alleria was just in Silvermoon on her political mission, nothing happened. Letting void researchers in Silvermoon would not affect Sunwell and there would be experts on void in a case Sunwell would be ever threatened by the Void from outside source. These measures you speak of were not needed for safety of Sunwell.
    Thank you. People on this forum are convinced that there is no difference at all between Alleria Windrunner the mortal who merged with a dark naaru, and Jim the scholar who cast one Void spell in his entire life.
    I will tell you what I told my own son when he picked up his first blade and played at being a soldier. Whatever your elders have told you... War is not glory. War is seeing people at their very worst and choosing to protect them anyway.

  12. #312
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Thank you. People on this forum are convinced that there is no difference at all between Alleria Windrunner the mortal who merged with a dark naaru, and Jim the scholar who cast one Void spell in his entire life.
    There is also some kind void paranoia. It seems some people think void is the only "evil" cosmic power which leads into madness and corruption in 100% cases. It is far from truth, since both Fel and Death are also notorious sources of corruption and once you start to meddle with powers such as these, you'll most likely be mad and corrupted. Not to mention that we've seen corruptive effects of Arcane as well as Light (in case of Lightbound), so it seems every cosmic Force have a chance to corrupt.

    If the Void is so dangerous you have to kick a group of your magisters and exile a war hero, when keeping them from Sunwell proved to be just enough, I don't understand why blood elves don't demand exile of all Horde void users, like Shadowmoon orcs, shadow priests, etc. They are the same threat Umbric's group were before their transformation.

  13. #313
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaedan View Post
    There is also some kind void paranoia. It seems some people think void is the only "evil" cosmic power which leads into madness and corruption in 100% cases. It is far from truth, since both Fel and Death are also notorious sources of corruption and once you start to meddle with powers such as these, you'll most likely be mad and corrupted. Not to mention that we've seen corruptive effects of Arcane as well as Light (in case of Lightbound), so it seems every cosmic Force have a chance to corrupt.

    If the Void is so dangerous you have to kick a group of your magisters and exile a war hero, when keeping them from Sunwell proved to be just enough, I don't understand why blood elves don't demand exile of all Horde void users, like Shadowmoon orcs, shadow priests, etc. They are the same threat Umbric's group were before their transformation.
    At this point I don't care anymore, since Rommath's decision 100% backfired and doomed the Horde war effort. Alleria Windrunner saved the Alliance at the Battle of Lordaeron, and Magister Umbric played a pivotal role in the turning point of the war, the Battle of Dazar'alor. Had Rommath never exiled the Ren'dorei, their power and knowledge would've been used in the service of Quel'thalas, and then the Alliance would've been doomed. In the end, it is Alleria who had the last laugh.
    I will tell you what I told my own son when he picked up his first blade and played at being a soldier. Whatever your elders have told you... War is not glory. War is seeing people at their very worst and choosing to protect them anyway.

  14. #314
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaedan View Post
    We actually don't know what protocols they have for entrance to Sunwell plateau. I guess they will not permit just anyone.

    My point was that if you constantly claim presence of void users within Silvermoon or Quel'thalas is a direct danger to the Sunwell, why blood elves does not request to exile all Horde void users? Why just elves are such a problem?

    We've seen a void user had to be in direct contact with Sunwell. It was also Alleria, very special case, with very unique powers different to other void elves. We don't know if regular void elves would trigger the same event. When Alleria was just in Silvermoon on her political mission, nothing happened. Letting void researchers in Silvermoon would not affect Sunwell and there would be experts on void in a case Sunwell would be ever threatened by the Void from outside source. These measures you speak of were not needed for safety of Sunwell.

    As @Aucald mentioned, exile of Umbric lead directly to transformation into void elves, which definitely pose more threat to Sunwell then just mere elves using Void. Lor'themar is actually responsible for creating more threats to Sunwell by doing so, not to mention he showed he did not learned from his past lessons and is still a leader who puts his own political interests above good and unity of his people.
    Do you remember the quel'delar quest where the entrance to the sunwell plateau was guarded by halduron and it was not easy to enter?

    I repeat, would you have liked more to see horrors of the void destroying silvermoon? Not me, the void elves could stop studying that magic that was a danger not only for them but for everyone, they decided to continue with their dangerous investigations that in the end needed to be saved.

    what happened with alleria confirmed that they were a danger.

  15. #315
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    Do you remember the quel'delar quest where the entrance to the sunwell plateau was guarded by halduron and it was not easy to enter?

    I repeat, would you have liked more to see horrors of the void destroying silvermoon? Not me, the void elves could stop studying that magic that was a danger not only for them but for everyone, they decided to continue with their dangerous investigations that in the end needed to be saved.

    what happened with alleria confirmed that they were a danger.
    No void elf ever expressed desire to harm Sunwell in any way. Don't forget that at the time of their exile, they were just regular elves. They had no special powers at the time. Their void nature is result of their exile. If they wre not exiled, ren'dorei would not came to be and there would not be another void related race with powers to potentialy damage Sunwell.

    If the entry to Sunwell is si well guarded, then it should be hard for them to enter it anyway, so no harm for it. If you can keep them easily away from Sunwell, why do want to exile them? If you are still too paranoid about them hurting Sunwell, why would they not ban all void users, like priests and warlocks from all of Silvermoon? What about other Horde members who use void liberarly?

  16. #316
    Stood in the Fire
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    No void magic in quelthalas. They are evil scum who will infect the well. Rommath made the only right call.

  17. #317
    Quote Originally Posted by keldarepewpew View Post
    No void magic in quelthalas. They are evil scum who will infect the well. Rommath made the only right call.
    Dear, if they wanted the Sunwell infected, they would've done it by now. Do you think there was anything stopping Alleria and her forces from teleporting inside Sunwell Plateau?
    I will tell you what I told my own son when he picked up his first blade and played at being a soldier. Whatever your elders have told you... War is not glory. War is seeing people at their very worst and choosing to protect them anyway.

  18. #318
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaedan View Post
    No void elf ever expressed desire to harm Sunwell in any way. Don't forget that at the time of their exile, they were just regular elves. They had no special powers at the time. Their void nature is result of their exile. If they wre not exiled, ren'dorei would not came to be and there would not be another void related race with powers to potentialy damage Sunwell.

    If the entry to Sunwell is si well guarded, then it should be hard for them to enter it anyway, so no harm for it. If you can keep them easily away from Sunwell, why do want to exile them? If you are still too paranoid about them hurting Sunwell, why would they not ban all void users, like priests and warlocks from all of Silvermoon? What about other Horde members who use void liberarly?
    you know what manslaughter is right? It is when you kill someone without wanting to kill someone, for example a person does something dangerous and that is against the law like driving a car while drunk. Then under the influence of alcohol he runs over and kills several people, the driver did not intend to kill anyone but he did it to do something dangerous.

    no matter what the intention of the void elves they were doing something dangerous that could endanger not only them but everyone in quelthalas, they could stop doing that but they preferred to move on and had to be saved

  19. #319
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    you know what manslaughter is right? It is when you kill someone without wanting to kill someone, for example a person does something dangerous and that is against the law like driving a car while drunk. Then under the influence of alcohol he runs over and kills several people, the driver did not intend to kill anyone but he did it to do something dangerous.

    no matter what the intention of the void elves they were doing something dangerous that could endanger not only them but everyone in quelthalas, they could stop doing that but they preferred to move on and had to be saved
    Then you can exile half of Silvermoon, since many citizens can use dangerous powers which may lead into killing on larger scale. In this case, all priests, warlocks and most mages are threat, because you can never tell when they go over the edge. Even a random rogue can literally have too much alcohol and go to killing spree and slaughter innocents. Sorry but this argument is not really valid.

    It is really simple. Rommath and Lor'theron got scared of the Void and exiled Umbric's group without second thought. Lor'themar once again showed he is incapable of solving opposition other then by exiling elves of other opinions. That decision resulted in birth of void elves. With Alleria's guidance, they seem to be relatively stable, they maintain their sanity and now offer unique knowledge of the Void to the Alliance. During War Campaign, they showed they truly can wield shadows as a weapon and since there is no notable void elf who succumbed to whispers, they proved they are in control.

    It is similar to the exile of high elves. They proved they can overcome their addiction without resorting to mana tapping and consirting with corruptive energies. Now void elves proved they are capable of safe use of the Void.

  20. #320
    I'm human, and i'm not okay with any elves on Azeroth.

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