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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by XalAtoh View Post
    It depends, if the fanmade article creates their own conclusion, and even contradicts with the actual source (apparently from your post). Then yea, I wouldn't call the that article facts in the first place.



    Gul'dan manipulates for a reason... because he wants to achieve certain goal in the story, which is taking over the Horde and live his life as a power-hungry godlike narcissistic freak.

    He could easily achieve his goal by just challenging Mak'gora after Grom rejected his offer. (His WoD manipulation skills was super bad too, so why even bother being manipulator).



    And, just like every villain Warcraft history? Maybe because his whole plan failed, because it was a dumb plan.... made barely sense when "a cheating normalized" Mak'gora is a thing.



    Nah, this topic is not about Thrall's duel. The fight is over and Thrall won the fight (not the Mak'gora) was apparently not a cheater, but that decision has consequences to the Orcish and Mak'gora lore.

    Yea, the normalization of cheating in Mak'gora of Thrall and Garrosh might have ruined the future of Mak'gora and its meaning. And this topic we discuss about the lore (failure). The fact that almost all of the Chieftains are Warriors and the fact that Gul'dan and Ner'zhul never made use of Mak'gora.

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    I know that Garrosh doesn't know the rules, which I always felt was very odd, since he is born and raised on Draenor and hangout with Saurfang, hang out and being leader of Warsong Orcs and Mag'har Orcs and other veteran old Orcs.

    The fact that he doesn't know is already a plothole. Somehow Cairne miraculously know it before Garrosh. But ignoring that, the book still shows that there are rules and traditions. Garrosh doesn't care, doesn't mean there are no rules.

    The Mak'gora failed with the witness aspect alone. If the players were the witness, then the Youtube comment sections speaks a lot... at least in-game there should be surrounded by AU Warsong Orcs. But no.
    The problem is your missing the point. No where in the rules they agreed upon addresses no magic or spells. The rules are created and agreed upon the participants and that's it. Using magic is not cheating. Now you can believe its cheating but that would be entirely up to your opinion.

  2. #62
    Banned Venziir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    well, AU Nerzhul had no reason to challenge Grommash, and Guldan had no oportunity - until cinematic he was doing what Guldan wanted, after that Guldan was imprisoned and even after release (by us) he kind of wasnt part of iron horde so i doubt he had any right to do so...

    as for "every Orc Chieftain is a Warrior"... how about no?
    Nerzhul was a chieftain and he was not a warior, neither was Thrall, Jorin Deadeye in outland nagrand wears cloth so i doubt he is warior despite being chieftain of bleeding hollow... and those are just who we know of...
    Thrall was a trained gladiator before becoming a shaman. He bested Doomhammer in a fist fight before even learning how to speak to as much as a snowflake.

  3. #63
    The Insane Daemos daemonium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    the actual rules were the ones used in the shattering, when Garrosh invoked the "OG" mak'gora against Cairne

    only one weapon, if it fall you use your fists
    no armor
    to the death

    the other ones were adapted to the moment/period of time, like not being to the death, armor being allowed if both wee using and were ok, the point was: it still have to be a honorable fight
    Ah, I remember that he wanted to do it to the death like the old ways but couldn't remember if every thing else was the OG rules or not.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by tommyhil622 View Post
    The problem is your missing the point. No where in the rules they agreed upon addresses no magic or spells. The rules are created and agreed upon the participants and that's it. Using magic is not cheating. Now you can believe its cheating but that would be entirely up to your opinion.
    Cairne explained the rules in details, no mention of magic. He only tells what's allowed:

    Loin cloth, 1 weapon, 1 blessing of shaman if you want, at least 1 witness for each side.

    Why 1 blessing? Thrall used Thunder, Wind, Earth, Fire. That's at-least 4 "blessings" if we can call full blown involvement of deadly elemental attacks a blessing.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by XalAtoh View Post
    Cairne explained the rules in details, no mention of magic. He only tells what's allowed:

    Loin cloth, 1 weapon, 1 blessing of shaman if you want, at least 1 witness for each side.

    Why 1 blessing? Thrall used Thunder, Wind, Earth, Fire. That's at-least 4 "blessings" if we can call full blown involvement of deadly elemental attacks a blessing.
    Actually Thrall didn't bless his weapon at all, you still missing the point. Re-read the entire quote.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by XalAtoh View Post
    Cairne explained the rules in details, no mention of magic. He only tells what's allowed:

    Loin cloth, 1 weapon, 1 blessing of shaman if you want, at least 1 witness for each side.

    Why 1 blessing? Thrall used Thunder, Wind, Earth, Fire. That's at-least 4 "blessings" if we can call full blown involvement of deadly elemental attacks a blessing.
    Those are the old traditional rules. The fact it was requested as such, it means that Mak'gora became something else over time.

  7. #67
    The Insane General Zanjin's Avatar
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    why are you continuing to argue with him? its clear he refused to learn/listen.
    #tracerisawesomelycute
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ght=shada%27in
    Mods are bias
    "I believe in honor but when it comes to war i will do whatever it takes to protect or save my family" -General Zanjin

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Timester View Post
    Those are the old traditional rules. The fact it was requested as such, it means that Mak'gora became something else over time.
    It's not even the old rules, the old rules actually less specific. Cairne asked the general rules and then he went into specifics for that particular fight. Xalatoh is lumping everything together and every battle like they have to follow the specific rules that Cairne specified.

    “What weapon? What Garb to Wear? How many Witnesses?”

    That's the original "ruleset or guidlines"

    Then after Cairne noticed Garrosh didn't know what they were or at least didn't remember them, he added specifics for that specifics fight.

    But seeing how the thread keeps going, i have nothing more to say.
    Last edited by tommyhil622; 2020-09-22 at 07:32 PM.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by XalAtoh View Post
    Cairne stated the rules in lore. And magic was not part of the Mak'gora.

    Just because we saw people using magic and literally one-shotting their opponent, like they were shot with a gun. Doesn't mean Mak'gora doesn't has any rules. The meaning of Mak'gora literally is duel of HONOR. Using something like a pistol or magic (basically same thing) is not honorable. More like an act of cowardice, while winner of Mak'gora should bring honor. It's complete the opposite.
    Let's say an evil person uses fists, and a good person seeking to save people uses magic - is it still dishonorable in your mind?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hellobolis View Post
    But like, then one has to ask why thrall didn't use magic from the get go. if he wanted to punish garrosh he obviously can make him suffer as much with magic as he can with fists/weapons.

    maybe he knew the elements would get pissed? then why not use sneaky means to ensure his win ?(wasn't exactly a guarantee afterall) you get back to some form of honor code pretty quickly. a pretty strong honor code too because there weren't any witnesses around.
    Well because perhaps Thrall didn't want to outright kill Garrosh, perhaps he wanted to beat him for a bit - who knows

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    Thrall was a trained gladiator before becoming a shaman. He bested Doomhammer in a fist fight before even learning how to speak to as much as a snowflake.
    sure, however he was chieftain and shaman
    and theres no reason to assume other orc shamans/priests or whatever didnt learn how to fight, after all as far as we know shamans are not born, they are chosen by the elements later in their life so they could have combat training before...

  11. #71
    Old God HighlordJohnstone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NatePsy View Post
    I believe that was only because he used Doomhammer/the power he borrows from the Elements for his own gain and they weren't a fan of that, so they stopped answering his call.
    No. Thrall was conflicted after defeating Garrosh, which caused the elements to abandon him as a response.

  12. #72
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Mak'gora has no hard and fast "rules" - these are decided upon by the participants in any given Mak'gora ahead of time, as part of the formal challenge. Outside of these pre-established rules Mak'gora is basically a free for all in terms of combat, will any kind of combat ability (including magic) being available for use. Mak'gora also appears to be a ritual form of combat the Orcs inherited from their Ogre forbearers, who also retain the tradition, albeit with the extra provision that it is limited for the use of Ogres and that a non-Ogre cannot call for a Mak'gora and expect it to be honored.

    Popularly, there have been claims that Thrall "cheated" in both his Mak'gora duels with Garrosh Hellscream - but this is not the case. Magic has been used in several different Mak'gora duels, and the "traditional" duel that Cairne demanded of Garrosh is far from the only type of Mak'gora there is (in fact, it has only been used once thus far). More recently, Thrall's use of Shamanism to defeat Garrosh in their second Mak'gora at Nagrand was also not a cheat, as Thrall is exonerated and his loss of Shamanism is explained in the Words of Wind and Earth concerning the Doomhammer:
    Through the years, Thrall wielded the Doomhammer with honor and integrity. However, following his execution of the malign warchief Garrosh Hellscream, Thrall felt conflicted. This internal struggle was reflected in the Doomhammer as well. In Thrall's mind, the weapon that had embodied the ideals of justice and virtue had now come to represent vengeance.
    Thrall's own internal conflict is the reason he surrendered the Doomhammer and has issues with his Shamanic power today, not the censure of the Elements.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  13. #73
    Banned Venziir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    sure, however he was chieftain and shaman
    and theres no reason to assume other orc shamans/priests or whatever didnt learn how to fight, after all as far as we know shamans are not born, they are chosen by the elements later in their life so they could have combat training before...
    None of that is even remotely relevant, nor does it change the fact that Thrall, despite all his other achievements and merits, was still a fighter before anything else. He's a hero character, they aren't bound by the same class restrictions as player characters - urgh, this game is almost 16 years old, how are people still not understanding that?

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    None of that is even remotely relevant, nor does it change the fact that Thrall, despite all his other achievements and merits, was still a fighter before anything else. He's a hero character, they aren't bound by the same class restrictions as player characters - urgh, this game is almost 16 years old, how are people still not understanding that?
    how the hell is a fact he is not a warior and he was a chieftain not relevant to the statement "every chieftain was a warior"... the statement i was arguing about wasnt "every chieftain knew how to fight" but LITERALY that they were wariors, meaning they had no magical skills, which Thrall does have...
    how are people out of elementary school and still unable to read with comprehension...

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by XalAtoh View Post
    In-game Thrall was losing, but even if Thrall was winning in other novels or short-stories and even closely one-shots Garrosh, that's whole point of this topic. If someone with magic can literally one-shot someone it's basically a pistol-based duel, except bolts are so large and fast, that Mak'gora isn't even about about combat or honor, it's about who can cast their magic first aka "who can pull the trigger first wins".
    Garrosh was a worse fighter than Thrall and lost. Garrosh was all "oh yeah, being a warrior is all about STRENGTH!" when theres also magic. Thrall literally makes that point.

    If a person gets "one-shot" by someone, yeah, they deserve to lose. Its a duel not a showmatch lol

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by tommyhil622 View Post
    Actually Thrall didn't bless his weapon at all, you still missing the point. Re-read the entire quote.
    Your point is participants pick the rules and that Garrosh doesn't care about the rules. But because Garrosh doesn't care about the rules Thrall was allowed to chea.. I mean use magic?

    Is that it? Is that your point?

    Just because Garrosh doesn't care about the rules, doesn't mean the Mak'gora itself has no traditions/rules, it's same as with that other Blood Elf duel.. same thing.

    Garrosh life depends on the rules with the Mak'gora of Thrall. Because if magic was allowed Thrall would obviously one-shotted him like a pistol in a boxing fight. Unless Garrosh doesn't care about dying by Thrall ... sure that does make Garrosh a fearless of death. But that makes still NO sense.

    The fact that Garrosh agrees with a rules where he can get one-shotted anytime Thrall wants, how does that work? This whole duel ended up with Thrall cheating OR Garrosh knew he has no chance and he accepts to die, without any chance to win.

    But that will create problems with why Gul'dan and Ner'zhul never used Mak'gora when it's all so benefiting them. They could won any Mak'gora of the famous Orc clans and climb up higher in the Orcish hierarchy than they currently were.

    Imo it makes 2 failures (maybe even 3):

    1) Garrosh just accepts dying, doesn't even bother specifying rules that could give equal winning chance.
    2) It never came into the mind of Gul'dan and Ner'zhul to use the "cheating/magic normalized" Mak'gora.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Scathan View Post
    I have a thought. The problem with thrall wasn't magic. It was that thrall EXECUTED Garrosh AFTER thrall had won. Which was out of character for him. Thrall had garrosh beat when he grabbed him with the earth hand. The fight was over, then Thrall killed him with lightning. For someone like thrall, this act was way out of character, and outside of Thralls personal view of honor.

    If we watch the fight again. Thrall is clearly the more skilled warrior, he has complete control of the fight until garrosh throws his weapon as a gambit (an actual combat tactic in history, and a risky one.) This surprises thrall enough for garrosh to gain control, only for a short time before Thrall uses magic to win the fight.

    Tldr, thrall didn't cheat, but overstepped and betrayed his own sense of morality by executing a subdued opponent
    This is sort of invented morality you've made for Thrall, although with the way he's been presented at times in game I can understand why you would think this. He has no moral issue executing a subdued opponent. He didn't hesitate to kill Garrosh the first time during the Siege of Orgrimmar, and only Varian's interference spared Garrosh at that time. I also remember a very old book, Cycle of Hatred I believe, where a rogue faction of orcs attempted to attack Theramore and Thrall showed up at the last moment and just absolutely obliterated the skull of the rogue faction leader when the orc was prostrate on the ground before him.
    He's a more brutal character than people often frame him as.

    Regarding Mak-Gora: I don't have a problem with the claim that he cheated, but the idea that the elements cut him off for it is so stupid. It would make more sense that the orcs rejected him for abandoning his honor and he swore off the elements himself out of shame. Mak-gora is part of the arbitrary honor code of the orc tribes, not an observance of the laws of the elements.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    Let's say an evil person uses fists, and a good person seeking to save people uses magic - is it still dishonorable in your mind?

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    Well because perhaps Thrall didn't want to outright kill Garrosh, perhaps he wanted to beat him for a bit - who knows
    It depends, it's actually questionable if Garrosh is evil, maybe to some, but not to everybody.

    You can always make someone look more evil. Especially if they have reasons for it to behave like that.

    But if Thrall challenged someone a duel and cheats to save his own people (or maybe himself and his pride), it's not in the scope of honor. He is just selfish.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    sure, however he was chieftain and shaman
    and theres no reason to assume other orc shamans/priests or whatever didnt learn how to fight, after all as far as we know shamans are not born, they are chosen by the elements later in their life so they could have combat training before...
    Thrall defeated Doomhammer even before he trained to become a shaman.

    It's something that was forgotten over time on the lore, but Thrall is one of the best orcish warriors alive, that was trained to fight and lead the Horde by humans since he was a baby.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Mak'gora has no hard and fast "rules" - these are decided upon by the participants in any given Mak'gora ahead of time, as part of the formal challenge. Outside of these pre-established rules Mak'gora is basically a free for all in terms of combat, will any kind of combat ability (including magic) being available for use. Mak'gora also appears to be a ritual form of combat the Orcs inherited from their Ogre forbearers, who also retain the tradition, albeit with the extra provision that it is limited for the use of Ogres and that a non-Ogre cannot call for a Mak'gora and expect it to be honored.

    Popularly, there have been claims that Thrall "cheated" in both his Mak'gora duels with Garrosh Hellscream - but this is not the case. Magic has been used in several different Mak'gora duels, and the "traditional" duel that Cairne demanded of Garrosh is far from the only type of Mak'gora there is (in fact, it has only been used once thus far). More recently, Thrall's use of Shamanism to defeat Garrosh in their second Mak'gora at Nagrand was also not a cheat, as Thrall is exonerated and his loss of Shamanism is explained in the Words of Wind and Earth concerning the Doomhammer:

    Thrall's own internal conflict is the reason he surrendered the Doomhammer and has issues with his Shamanic power today, not the censure of the Elements.
    Sure, but that's not actually what this topic is about.

    This topic is about why Gul'dan (or Ner'zhul) never challenged Grom a "cheating/magic normalized" Mak'gora. Gul'dan can literally "honorably" one shot Grom like with a pistol and claim victory and honor with Mak'gora (Duel of Honor). Warsong Orcs will respect Gul'dan for killing their feared and respected Chieftain "honorably" and "fairly".

    Gul'dan gets what he wants, and he also gets respect from winning the Mak'gora.

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