If using Magic is not cheating, why didn't Ner'zhul or Gul'dan challenge Grommash?

[Lolites]

Except it's clear on the Rise of the Horde novel, that Doomhammer picked Thrall because his strength, and the fact that Durotan was the only one to beat Doomhammer on a fight in the past.

riiight, it had nothing to do with his character, thats why he came anonymous, provoked Thrall to see his reaction, bcs he wanted to know how strong he is,not bcs he wanted to know IF he will fight...
i recommend reading it again and thinking about it a bit if this is what you took from the book...

[Syegfryed]

So in short, you're completely wrong.

a bunch of shit there is made up by then and not canon, thats why they do not link any canon source, especially the part they start with "another popular misconception" is made up by the wiki and you guys are parroting thinking is canon, is on comic level.

Except he didn't cheat. As I have mentioned several times, if neither opponent sets any rules then they can use everything at their disposal..

thats is literally a massive headcanon that you can't find anywhere in the canon lore

And everyone else who watched it. Thrall is depressed because he had to kill Grom's son, not because he "cheated".

no one watched, only the player, and he is depressed because he know he is a cheater and used the elements to do something he should have did himself.

Sure it would, especially if the Elements did it themselves without being asked. Very little doubt that many Orcs would see that as the direct censure of the Elements.

any form of intervention would invalidate the mak'gora, regardless of the reasons, because isn't a 1x1 fight anymore

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Asking a caster to fight without using magic isn’t honorable. Actually it’s pretty damn dishonorable since It would be stacking the fight unfairly against them. If the warrior felt the caster was out of his league to fight fairly, then maybe they should rethink challenging them.

Thrall was not just a caster, he was a warrior and a gladiator, one of the best who ever lived, AND HE HIMSELF chose the doomhammer and not other weapon/magic

[Krothar]

-snip-

Lets not complain about someone using head canon to explain their position then in the same breath pretend to know the inner thoughts of a character.

[Aucald]

any form of intervention would invalidate the mak'gora, regardless of the reasons, because isn't a 1x1 fight anymore

I am pretty sure divine intervention qualifies - but it's essentially a moot point, because the person the Elements likely intervened against is deader than a doornail (e.g. Garrosh after receiving a lightning lobotomy). Mak'gora is all about might making right, after all; and you can't be more right than the spiritual incarnation of a world's Elemental power intervening on your behalf. You can't be much more mighty, either.

[Syegfryed]

I am pretty sure divine intervention qualifies - but it's essentially a moot point, because the person the Elements likely intervened against is deader than a doornail (e.g. Garrosh after receiving a lightning lobotomy). Mak'gora is all about might making right, after all; and you can't be more right than the spiritual incarnation of a world's Elemental power intervening on your behalf. You can't be much more mighty, either.

its not just, might making right, its a duel of honor, is a honorable fight between two people, any 3rd party intervention or dirty/cheap tricks or unfair advantage will invalidate it, is how Orcs, as a warrior race, would see. The elements intervening would only mean the fight itself was invalid and they had to find another way to set things.

[Aucald]

its not just, might making right, its a duel of honor, is a honorable fight between two people, any 3rd party intervention or dirty/cheap tricks or unfair advantage will invalidate it, is how Orcs, as a warrior race, would see. The elements intervening would only mean the fight itself was invalid and they had to find another way to set things.

It's might makes right because the rightness of cause is immaterial in a duel for honor - an Orc who is objectively wrong or dishonorable can win on martial prowess alone, and there's no intrinsic honor in that fact. I highly doubt many Orcs would view the direct intervention of the Elements as something that would make the duel invalid, either; so agree to disagree. The Orcs are a spiritual people who revere the Elements as well as their ancestral spirits - they are highly subject to the presence of either being a strong influencing force.

[Syegfryed]

It's might makes right because the rightness of cause is immaterial in a duel for honor - an Orc who is objectively wrong or dishonorable can win on martial prowess alone, and there's no intrinsic honor in that fact.

its doesn't matter if he is wrong or dishonorable previously, if he is fighting fair and honorable and win, he get the position.

I highly doubt many Orcs would view the direct intervention of the Elements as something that would make the duel invalid, either; so agree to disagree. The Orcs are a spiritual people who revere the Elements as well as their ancestral spirits - they are highly subject to the presence of either being a strong influencing force.

i definitely believe with 100% of certain that orcs would do that, spirits of the ancestors are one thing, elemental spirits are other, if they intervene, its not a mak'gora anymore, is basic and simple logic for a basic and simple orc mind

they could see as a sign, a warn or whatever they could think, but, the mak'gora would still be invalid because its not a 1x1 duel of honor anymore.

[Arkthugal]

no one watched, only the player, and he is depressed because he know he is a cheater and used the elements to do something he should have did himself.

And the Warsong clan, and multiple other NPCs who convened with Thrall after the fight. You're wrong and you have no argument.

[TheRevenantHero]

a bunch of shit there is made up by then and not canon, thats why they do not link any canon source, especially the part they start with "another popular misconception" is made up by the wiki and you guys are parroting thinking is canon, is on comic level.



thats is literally a massive headcanon that you can't find anywhere in the canon lore



no one watched, only the player, and he is depressed because he know he is a cheater and used the elements to do something he should have did himself.



any form of intervention would invalidate the mak'gora, regardless of the reasons, because isn't a 1x1 fight anymore

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Thrall was not just a caster, he was a warrior and a gladiator, one of the best who ever lived, AND HE HIMSELF chose the doomhammer and not other weapon/magic

lmfao no it's not headcanon, dude. Just because you can't accept the actual lore doesn't mean it's headcanon. It was explained in the lore why Thrall was depressed an it literally had nothing to do with "cheating". As for everything else, there is no lore stating that mak'gora has universal rules. The lore dictates the opposite. The rules of each fight are determined by the combatants. If no rules are stated, you can use everything at your disposal. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it headcanon.

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its doesn't matter if he is wrong or dishonorable previously, if he is fighting fair and honorable and win, he get the position.


i definitely believe with 100% of certain that orcs would do that, spirits of the ancestors are one thing, elemental spirits are other, if they intervene, its not a mak'gora anymore, is basic and simple logic for a basic and simple orc mind

they could see as a sign, a warn or whatever they could think, but, the mak'gora would still be invalid because its not a 1x1 duel of honor anymore.

Calling the elements a "third party intervening" is just ridiculous. If an earth elemental or something rose from the ground, that's one thing. But Thrall using the elements via shaman magic isn't the elements intervening so therefore it was still a 1v1 fight.

[Goldielocks]

It's funny how people keep saying it's cheating when no proof of this claim exists at all, let alone why in the flying fuck would the elements care about some goddamn duel. It's comical lmao

Thrall lost his connection because he became depressed. That's it. It was all him.

[TheRevenantHero]

It's funny how people keep saying it's cheating when no proof of this claim exists at all, let alone why in the flying fuck would the elements care about some goddamn duel. It's comical lmao

Thrall lost his connection because he became depressed. That's it. It was all him.

According to Syegfryed, he was depressed because he knew he cheated. The story doesn't support that claim at all and even describes the actual reason Thrall was depressed but it keeps getting disregarded because then people would need to admit they're wrong.

[Zmagoslav]

Warriors or no, they still largely revere the Elements and thus the Shaman who serve them. Thrall is himself conflicted on whether or not he acted in justice or vengeance concerning his final duel with Garrosh, and his self-doubt has closed him off from the Elements as a result so we don't really know how he sees it or if he even can at current.

A majority of them had no issues when "torturing the elements" was on the menu and actually went with Garrosh back in MOP. That reverence can't have been that strong.

[Syegfryed]

And the Warsong clan, and multiple other NPCs who convened with Thrall after the fight. You're wrong and you have no argument.

they didn't saw the fight, they litrally went to a place where they would be alone

its literally Grrosh words before the cinemtic:

Thrall says: I challenge you to Mak'gora.
Vindicator Yrel says: Thrall, no.
Garrosh Hellscream says: Very well, shaman. We finish this alone, where it all began...
Garrosh Hellscream says: ... at the Stones of Prophecy.

and the cinematic don't show anyone, even aftr thrall is thinking about alone.

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lmfao no it's not headcanon, dude. Just because you can't accept the actual lore doesn't mean it's headcanon

show it then, show where is the canon source of that, random words of the wiki with no link associate are not "actual lore"

It was explained in the lore why Thrall was depressed an it literally had nothing to do with "cheating"

If he won the mak'gora in a fair fight, with justice, he would not be depressed, you think all the self doubt and self punishement was by nothing? blizzard had to change so he don't pass as a cheater, "look thrall have depression ttoally not because he ceat guys, is because others ~~reasons~~ just trust us, he is not cheater

As for everything else, there is no lore stating that mak'gora has universal rules. The lore dictates the opposite.

only the wiki - with no canon source - does that, the rules of a mak'gora, the OG one are described in the Shattering, between Cairne and Garrosh

The rules of each fight are determined by the combatants. If no rules are stated, you can use everything at your disposal Just because you don't like it doesn't make it headcanon.

show me a canon source, where is stated that "if no rules are sated you can use everything at your disposal" i bet you to show where this piece of lore is coming from

it make no freaking sense to a mak'gora, an orcish duel of honor for the participants to use "anything at their dispossal unles sstated otherwise" this is so nonsensical that i don't even know if you are reading yourself. "i am a chieftin... i have all those soliders at my dispossal, i can use anything? well i will bring those soliers with me, it will be totally fine and no cheat t all!1!!

Its literally the opposite, the people have to state other rules and be ok with that, just like the rule of "no killing" that thrall came up, if no new rules are described, you use the normal ones, The original Mak'gora is described in Shattering book, anything beyond that is people agreeing with the terms, like a paladin x a shaman, both were using magic

Calling the elements a "third party intervening" is just ridiculous. If an earth elemental or something rose from the ground, that's one thing. But Thrall using the elements via shaman magic isn't the elements intervening so therefore it was still a 1v1 fight.

its a third party, their are not just different entities but also a different weapon, where in a ma'gora you use only one, or at least the same number of weapons.

Thrall fought as a warrior and use the doomhammer, got his ass kicked and had to ask the elements for help and use then to win, cheat plain and simple.

[TheRevenantHero]

they didn't saw the fight, they litrally went to a place where they would be alone

its literally Grrosh words before the cinemtic:


and the cinematic don't show anyone, even aftr thrall is thinking about alone.

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show it then, show where is the canon source of that, random words of the wiki with no link associate are not "actual lore"


If he won the mak'gora in a fair fight, with justice, he would not be depressed, you think all the self doubt and self punishement was by nothing? blizzard had to change so he don't pass as a cheater, "look thrall have depression ttoally not because he ceat guys, is because others ~~reasons~~ just trust us, he is not cheater


only the wiki - with no canon source - does that, the rules of a mak'gora, the OG one are described in the Shattering, between Cairne and Garrosh


show me a canon source, where is stated that "if no rules are sated you can use everything at your disposal" i bet you to show where this piece of lore is coming from

it make no freaking sense to a mak'gora, an orcish duel of honor for the participants to use "anything at their dispossal unles sstated otherwise" this is so nonsensical that i don't even know if you are reading yourself. "i am a chieftin... i have all those soliders at my dispossal, i can use anything? well i will bring those soliers with me, it will be totally fine and no cheat t all!1!!

Its literally the opposite, the people have to state other rules and be ok with that, just like the rule of "no killing" that thrall came up, if no new rules are described, you use the normal ones, The original Mak'gora is described in Shattering book, anything beyond that is people agreeing with the terms, like a paladin x a shaman, both were using magic



its a third party, their are not just different entities but also a different weapon, where in a ma'gora you use only one, or at least the same number of weapons.

Thrall fought as a warrior and use the doomhammer, got his ass kicked and had to ask the elements for help and use then to win, cheat plain and simple.

there is only one universal rule for mak'gora. It's 1 on 1. That's it. any other rules are stated by the combatants. If neither combatants declare any rules then that means the only rule is 1v1. Stop declaring your headcanons as fact. It has been stated in the lore the reason Thrall was depressed was due to his inner conflict and self-doubt that had absolutely nothing to do with any alleged cheating. His self-doubt was created because he realized he failed in making Garrosh warchief. His inner turmoil involved him doubting himself as a shaman. It literally had nothing to do with the mak'gora.

I've supplied sources and you disregarded them. Now it's your turn. Show me a canon source that proves that there are universal rules for every single fight. Show me a canon source that declares Thrall was depressed because he knew he "cheated". Show me a canon source that declares magic isn't allowed no matter what.

The Doomhammer channels the elements. A shaman wielding the elements is not bringing a new weapon nor is a third party intervening. There is no universal rule anywhere in the lore that states you can only use one weapon during a mak'gora. That was a rule specific to the fight between Garrosh and Cairne because it was stated before the fight started. No such rule was stated by either Garrosh or Thrall so therefore Thrall didn't cheat.

Stop spouting your headcanons as facts because you're making it utterly impossible for the conversation to continue.

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A majority of them had no issues when "torturing the elements" was on the menu and actually went with Garrosh back in MOP. That reverence can't have been that strong.

It wasn't a majority. The dark shamans were a group that enslaved the elements rather than working together with the elements. They were and still are frowned upon by the majority of the orc population. It's why we had no issue murdering them during SoO.

[Viconia]

Ugh. Rules for Makgora are decided by the participants. How do people not understand this yet?

First I hear of this. Is it stated in any source?

Garrosh gained the favor of the elements in AU Draenor because he came with the warning of the impending Legion invasion they didn't want him to die.

First I hear of this as well, I recall the elements of Draenor hated Garrosh's presence, because he was from another universe and therefore his energies didn't quite fit (or some shit like that).

[Syegfryed]

there is only one universal rule for mak'gora. It's 1 on 1.

thats simple not true, we saw the original mak'gora rules in the shattering book, where Cairne invoked the original mak'gora, THE one they used in orchish tradition, stop ignoring it.

Besides, even if it was 1 on 1 Thrall didn't fight alone, we fight with the elements

That's it. any other rules are stated by the combatants.

the oficial rules are stated in the book:

- 1 x 1
- one weapon for each, if it falls you use your fists
- no armor, only loincloth
- shaman blessing
- one witness
- to the death

those are the rules, anything beyond that is the participants actually changing to better fit the scenario, yet, its always a honorable fight where both participants were even

Garrosh had the Gorehowl, Thrall had the doomhammer, they both fall, Garrosh used his fists and didn't pick up his weapon, like tradition demands, Thrall asked aid and used the elements, yeah h honorable 1x fight, not cheated at all

if those shit were allowed every chieftain to exist would be a shaman simple because he could zap his opponent, exactly the question OP raised.

Stop declaring your headcanons as fact.

And here im waiting where those "facts" of yours, you have yet to show the canon source of that

It has been stated in the lore the reason Thrall was depressed was due to his inner conflict and self-doubt that had absolutely nothing to do with any alleged cheating.

Like i said, yes, its how blizzard put to not pass up thrall as a cheater, but yet, if he fought honourable, there was no reason for him to have any self doubt or inner conflict, take that as you want

I've supplied sources and you disregarded them. Now it's your turn.

you didn't, you link the wiki with only their words without a single sourced attached to then

the canon lore is showed in the Shattering book, no matter how people like to ignore it

Show me a canon source that proves that there are universal rules for every single fight

you are changing goals, but there is the set of rules of the original mak'gora, again, in the book

The Doomhammer channels the elements.

he was not using the doomhammer where he invoked the elements

A shaman wielding the elements is not bringing a new weapon nor is a third party intervening.

It is, its a thirdy party and was not his weapon, again, just like the poison, its bullshit

There is no universal rule anywhere in the lore that states you can only use one weapon during a mak'gora. That was a rule specific to the fight between Garrosh and Cairne because it was stated before the fight started. No such rule was stated by either Garrosh or Thrall so therefore Thrall didn't cheat.

Again, wrong, that is the rules of the mak'gora, that was not a rule specific to this fight, this is a made up shit, Cairne invoke the original mak'gora, therefore, they use the original rules, therefore, there is a set of rules of a mk'gora for then to change something, simple as that.

Stop spouting your headcanons as facts because you're making it utterly impossible for the conversation to continue.

Again, you are the one parroting the headcanon of the wiki and making up things

1- nowhere is said there is no rules and they do the rules on the spot
1- nowhere is said that if they don't stated anything beforehand everything is valid

you literally made those up

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First I hear of this. Is it stated in any source?

there is no source because they are making up stuff based on the wiki, some rules are changed/adapted to fit better the scenario/event/time, but there was always a set of rules they followed(they forget tht to change/adapt, there must be something before)

Thrall changed the rule of fighting to the death, Later if they were in hurry, or they need a quick resolution, they could fight on the spot, so they adapted, no need for shaman blessing or using loincloth, when a shaman and a paladin fought, they both used magic

First I hear of this as well, I recall the elements of Draenor hated Garrosh's presence, because he was from another universe and therefore his energies didn't quite fit (or some shit like that).

yes, it stated in one shortstory that the elements disliked Garrosh presence

[TheRevenantHero]

thats simple not true, we saw the original mak'gora rules in the shattering book, where Cairne invoked the original mak'gora, THE one they used in orchish tradition, stop ignoring it.

Besides, even if it was 1 on 1 Thrall didn't fight alone, we fight with the elements


the oficial rules are stated in the book:

- 1 x 1
- one weapon for each, if it falls you use your fists
- no armor, only loincloth
- shaman blessing
- one witness
- to the death

those are the rules, anything beyond that is the participants actually changing to better fit the scenario, yet, its always a honorable fight where both participants were even

And here im waiting where those "facts" of yours come, you have yet to show the canon source of that



Like i said, yes, its how blizzard put to not pass up thrall as a cheater, but yet, if he fought honourable, there was no reason for him to have any self doubt or inner conflict, take that as you want



you didn't, you link the wiki with only their words without a single sourced attached to then

the canon lore is showed in the Shattering book, no matter how people like to ignore it


you are changing goals, but there is the set of rules of the original mak'gora, again, in the book


he was not using the doomhammer where he invoked the elements



It is, its a thirdy party and was not his weapon, again, just like the poison, its bullshit



Again, wrong, that is the rules of the mak'gora, that was not a rule specific to this fight, this is a made up shit, Cairne invoke the original mak'gora, therefore, they use the original rules, therefore, there is a set of rules of a mk'gora for then to change something, simple as that.


Again, you are the one parroting the headcanon of the wiki and making up things

1- nowhere is said there is no rules and they do the rules on the spot
1- nowhere is said that if they don't stated anything beforehand is anything valid

you literally made those up

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there is no source because they are making up stuff based on the wiki, some rules are changed/adapted to fit better the scenario/event/time, but there was always a set of rules they followed(they forget tht to change/adapt, there must be something before)

Thrall changed the rule of fighting to the death, Later if they were in hurry, or they need a quick resolution, they could fight on the spot, so they adapted, no need for shaman blessing or using loincloth, when a shaman and a paladin fought, they both used magic



yes, it stated in one shortstory that the elements disliked Garrosh presence

The Shattering book does NOT declare official rules. All that is said is the rules that Cairne's version of mak'gora. Those rules don't and haven't applied to numerous other mak'goras in lore. To say that Cairne describing mak'gora being the absolute canon rules is laughable and disregards literally every other instance of mak'gora that doesn't follow those rules.

The elements are not a third party. That's like saying the arcane is a third party. I'm not going to address this again purely because it's an absolutely ridiculous point. Thrall absolutely was using Doomhammer during the fight with Garrosh.

So your "canon lore" is literal the account of ONE FUCKING PERSON. that's ridiculous and I'm not even going to accept that as an argument anymore. You're also wrong about why Thrall was depressed. You very clearly only read snippets of the lore when declaring your talking points.

[Syegfryed]

The Shattering book does NOT declare official rules. All that is said is the rules that Cairne's version of mak'gora. Those rules don't and haven't applied to numerous other mak'goras in lore. To say that Cairne describing mak'gora being the absolute canon rules is laughable and disregards literally every other instance of mak'gora that doesn't follow those rules.

Again, no, go read the book, Cairne is not an orc he can't "make his version of mak'gora"

Cairne invoked the original mak'gora, Garrosh made sure it was the original one, the one used in the times of old, that include the death rule to scare him off, but he didn't back down so they used everything like they did in Draenor, like tradition say, that include all the rules they used in the book.

its both insane and amazing that you think they would made up all those rules and shenanignans(loinchotch, shaman blessing, to the death) just for that fight alone for no reason at all.

And of course they didn't, here we can see Garad and Fenris Mak'gora, were both use, just like the rules and tradition say one weapon and no armor/loincloth (before you can even see the shaman blessing his weapon)


but sure, they steal that idea from Carine to to chill their balls

The elements are not a third party. That's like saying the arcane is a third party. I'm not going to address this again purely because it's an absolutely ridiculous point. Thrall absolutely was using Doomhammer during the fight with Garrosh.

There is a big difference in using shaman simple magic and asking aid and invoking powerful stronger elements.

Without elements a shaman can still use his shman magic, like thrall used in SoO where there was no elements for him to call, and he got his ass kicked even using magic

Thrall was not using the doomhammer when he invoked the elements, and yes, that was his only weapon, it fallen, he should have fight with his fists like Garrosh did, just like the tradition and rules demands.

So your "canon lore" is literal the account of ONE FUCKING PERSON.

The canon lore, is in the shattering books, the original rules of a mak'gora, on't know where you come up with "the account of one person"

that's ridiculous and I'm not even going to accept that as an argument anymore.

This is funny when we see that you made this up:

there is no rules and they do the rules on the spot, if they don't stated anything beforehand anything is valid

[TheRevenantHero]

Again, no, go read the book, Cairne is not an orc he can't "make his version of mak'gora"

Cairne invoked the original mak'gora, Garrosh made sure it was the original one, the one used in the times of old, that include the death rule to scare him off, but he didn't back down so they used everything like they did in Draenor, like tradition say, that include all the rules they used in the book.

its both insane and amazing that you think they would made up all those rules and shenanignans(loinchotch, shaman blessing, to the death) just for that fight alone for no reason at all


There is a big difference in using shaman simple magic and asking aid and invoking powerful stronger elements.

Without elements a shaman can still use his shman magic, like thrall used in SoO where there was no elements for him to call, and he got his ass kicked even using magic

Thrall was not using the doomhammer when he invoked the elements, and yes, that was his only weapon, it fallen, he should have fight with his fists like Garrosh did, just like the tradition and rules demands.



The canon lore, is in the shattering books, the original rules of a mak'gora, on't know where you come up with "the account of one person"



This is funny when we see that you made this up:

there is no rules and they do the rules on the spot, if they don't stated anything beforehand anything is valid

Cairne is literally the only person who stated the so called rules for mak'gora. It's not mentioned by anyone else anywhere in the lore. To say what Cairne said is law is asinine. The alleged rules of mak'gora are recounted by Cairne in The Shattering and nowhere else. Yeah, not taking that as the 100% rules especially since Cairne isn't a fucking orc.

Every other mak'gora in Warcraft history didn't follow those alleged rules. Which leads to the conclusion that if there are any rules, they are on a case by case basis. No rules stated means nothing is disallowed. Thrall lost in SoO because he was fighting Garrosh who was literally being empowered by the heart of an Old God at the time. Thrall using the elements in their next duel wasn't cheating. Especially since Garrosh is the kind of douche canoe who would have immediately declared that Thrall was cheating if what he was doing was ACTUALLY cheating.

In short, you have no idea what you're talking about and really need to stop spouting The Shattering as your proof. Because in that book, Cairne is the one that recounts the alleged rules and he's not even an orc.

[Syegfryed]

Cairne is literally the only person who stated the so called rules for mak'gora. It's not mentioned by anyone else anywhere in the lore. To say what Cairne said is law is asinine. The alleged rules of mak'gora are recounted by Cairne in The Shattering and nowhere else. Yeah, not taking that as the 100% rules especially since Cairne isn't a fucking orc.

Carine is not an orc he ca'tn make up orchish tradition my dude LUL

the only person? what about the mak'gora between Garand nd Fenrirs?
https://bnetcmsus-a.akamaihd.net/cms...4200903205.pdf

how they are using the Rules that Cairne created?

Every other mak'gora in Warcraft history didn't follow those alleged rules. Which leads to the conclusion that if there are any rules, they are on a case by case basis. No rules stated means nothing is disallowed.

this is wrong because: there is a set of rules, and to think that if they don't explicit say if something is not allowed everything is allowed is completely nonsensical

by this logic, the mak'gora don't even need to be a 1x1, nowhere is stated that 2x1 is not permitted

In short, you have no idea what you're talking about and really need to stop spouting The Shattering as your proof. Because in that book, Cairne is the one that recounts the alleged rules and he's not even an orc.

apparently you didn't even read the book, and you are saying i have no idea, its cute, but i put another proof for ya, lets see how you will ignore or spin it.