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  1. #141
    Bit like pissy bitches whining in a duel in Goldshire when the pally they challenge uses bubble. Well yeah... it's an ability they can use. Suck it up.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nnyco View Post
    Dunno why some people got such a boner to be just a lowly peon-adventurer.

  2. #142
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulfric Trumpcloak View Post
    Idk about that. But in shadows rising he mentions wanting to be back in draenor because in azeroth the elements don't answer to him.
    In Shadows Rising he wants to be back on Draenor because that's where his wife and sons are, he doesn't mention the Elements specifically to my knowledge. As shown in the Safe Haven cinematic, Thrall also cannot wield his normal Shamanic power on Draenor in any case.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    the actual rules were the ones used in the shattering, when Garrosh invoked the "OG" mak'gora against Cairne

    only one weapon, if it fall you use your fists
    no armor
    to the death

    the other ones were adapted to the moment/period of time, like not being to the death, armor being allowed if both wee using and were ok, the point was: it still have to be a honorable fight

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    Asking a caster to fight without using magic isn’t honorable. Actually it’s pretty damn dishonorable since It would be stacking the fight unfairly against them. If the warrior felt the caster was out of his league to fight fairly, then maybe they should rethink challenging them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ruargh
    I'm baffled that something this simple can be so hard for some people... I guess we can't blame blizzard for dumbing down the game any longer, because apparently it very much needed :

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyattbw09 View Post
    That is nothing more than head cannon.
    Headcanon is implying something that is not established in the lore. "Cheating" is never mentioned anywhere, either game or other media. All we know is that Thrall ... "felt conflicted. This internal struggle was reflected in the Doomhammer as well. In Thrall's mind, the weapon that had embodied the ideals of justice and virtue had now come to represent vengeance."

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Timester View Post
    Except it's clear on the Rise of the Horde novel, that Doomhammer picked Thrall because his strength, and the fact that Durotan was the only one to beat Doomhammer on a fight in the past.
    riiight, it had nothing to do with his character, thats why he came anonymous, provoked Thrall to see his reaction, bcs he wanted to know how strong he is,not bcs he wanted to know IF he will fight...
    i recommend reading it again and thinking about it a bit if this is what you took from the book...

  6. #146
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    So in short, you're completely wrong.
    a bunch of shit there is made up by then and not canon, thats why they do not link any canon source, especially the part they start with "another popular misconception" is made up by the wiki and you guys are parroting thinking is canon, is on comic level.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Except he didn't cheat. As I have mentioned several times, if neither opponent sets any rules then they can use everything at their disposal..
    thats is literally a massive headcanon that you can't find anywhere in the canon lore

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkthugal View Post
    And everyone else who watched it. Thrall is depressed because he had to kill Grom's son, not because he "cheated".
    no one watched, only the player, and he is depressed because he know he is a cheater and used the elements to do something he should have did himself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Sure it would, especially if the Elements did it themselves without being asked. Very little doubt that many Orcs would see that as the direct censure of the Elements.
    any form of intervention would invalidate the mak'gora, regardless of the reasons, because isn't a 1x1 fight anymore

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    Quote Originally Posted by alt-ithist View Post
    Asking a caster to fight without using magic isn’t honorable. Actually it’s pretty damn dishonorable since It would be stacking the fight unfairly against them. If the warrior felt the caster was out of his league to fight fairly, then maybe they should rethink challenging them.
    Thrall was not just a caster, he was a warrior and a gladiator, one of the best who ever lived, AND HE HIMSELF chose the doomhammer and not other weapon/magic
    Last edited by Syegfryed; 2020-09-23 at 08:32 PM.

  7. #147
    Dreadlord Krothar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    -snip-
    Lets not complain about someone using head canon to explain their position then in the same breath pretend to know the inner thoughts of a character.

  8. #148
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    any form of intervention would invalidate the mak'gora, regardless of the reasons, because isn't a 1x1 fight anymore
    I am pretty sure divine intervention qualifies - but it's essentially a moot point, because the person the Elements likely intervened against is deader than a doornail (e.g. Garrosh after receiving a lightning lobotomy). Mak'gora is all about might making right, after all; and you can't be more right than the spiritual incarnation of a world's Elemental power intervening on your behalf. You can't be much more mighty, either.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  9. #149
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I am pretty sure divine intervention qualifies - but it's essentially a moot point, because the person the Elements likely intervened against is deader than a doornail (e.g. Garrosh after receiving a lightning lobotomy). Mak'gora is all about might making right, after all; and you can't be more right than the spiritual incarnation of a world's Elemental power intervening on your behalf. You can't be much more mighty, either.
    its not just, might making right, its a duel of honor, is a honorable fight between two people, any 3rd party intervention or dirty/cheap tricks or unfair advantage will invalidate it, is how Orcs, as a warrior race, would see. The elements intervening would only mean the fight itself was invalid and they had to find another way to set things.

  10. #150
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    its not just, might making right, its a duel of honor, is a honorable fight between two people, any 3rd party intervention or dirty/cheap tricks or unfair advantage will invalidate it, is how Orcs, as a warrior race, would see. The elements intervening would only mean the fight itself was invalid and they had to find another way to set things.
    It's might makes right because the rightness of cause is immaterial in a duel for honor - an Orc who is objectively wrong or dishonorable can win on martial prowess alone, and there's no intrinsic honor in that fact. I highly doubt many Orcs would view the direct intervention of the Elements as something that would make the duel invalid, either; so agree to disagree. The Orcs are a spiritual people who revere the Elements as well as their ancestral spirits - they are highly subject to the presence of either being a strong influencing force.
    "Here lies a toppled god.
    His fall was not a small one.
    We did but build his pedestal,
    A narrow and a tall one."

  11. #151
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    It's might makes right because the rightness of cause is immaterial in a duel for honor - an Orc who is objectively wrong or dishonorable can win on martial prowess alone, and there's no intrinsic honor in that fact.
    its doesn't matter if he is wrong or dishonorable previously, if he is fighting fair and honorable and win, he get the position.
    I highly doubt many Orcs would view the direct intervention of the Elements as something that would make the duel invalid, either; so agree to disagree. The Orcs are a spiritual people who revere the Elements as well as their ancestral spirits - they are highly subject to the presence of either being a strong influencing force.
    i definitely believe with 100% of certain that orcs would do that, spirits of the ancestors are one thing, elemental spirits are other, if they intervene, its not a mak'gora anymore, is basic and simple logic for a basic and simple orc mind

    they could see as a sign, a warn or whatever they could think, but, the mak'gora would still be invalid because its not a 1x1 duel of honor anymore.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    no one watched, only the player, and he is depressed because he know he is a cheater and used the elements to do something he should have did himself.
    And the Warsong clan, and multiple other NPCs who convened with Thrall after the fight. You're wrong and you have no argument.

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    a bunch of shit there is made up by then and not canon, thats why they do not link any canon source, especially the part they start with "another popular misconception" is made up by the wiki and you guys are parroting thinking is canon, is on comic level.



    thats is literally a massive headcanon that you can't find anywhere in the canon lore



    no one watched, only the player, and he is depressed because he know he is a cheater and used the elements to do something he should have did himself.



    any form of intervention would invalidate the mak'gora, regardless of the reasons, because isn't a 1x1 fight anymore

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    Thrall was not just a caster, he was a warrior and a gladiator, one of the best who ever lived, AND HE HIMSELF chose the doomhammer and not other weapon/magic
    lmfao no it's not headcanon, dude. Just because you can't accept the actual lore doesn't mean it's headcanon. It was explained in the lore why Thrall was depressed an it literally had nothing to do with "cheating". As for everything else, there is no lore stating that mak'gora has universal rules. The lore dictates the opposite. The rules of each fight are determined by the combatants. If no rules are stated, you can use everything at your disposal. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it headcanon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    its doesn't matter if he is wrong or dishonorable previously, if he is fighting fair and honorable and win, he get the position.


    i definitely believe with 100% of certain that orcs would do that, spirits of the ancestors are one thing, elemental spirits are other, if they intervene, its not a mak'gora anymore, is basic and simple logic for a basic and simple orc mind

    they could see as a sign, a warn or whatever they could think, but, the mak'gora would still be invalid because its not a 1x1 duel of honor anymore.
    Calling the elements a "third party intervening" is just ridiculous. If an earth elemental or something rose from the ground, that's one thing. But Thrall using the elements via shaman magic isn't the elements intervening so therefore it was still a 1v1 fight.

  14. #154
    It's funny how people keep saying it's cheating when no proof of this claim exists at all, let alone why in the flying fuck would the elements care about some goddamn duel. It's comical lmao

    Thrall lost his connection because he became depressed. That's it. It was all him.

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Goldielocks View Post
    It's funny how people keep saying it's cheating when no proof of this claim exists at all, let alone why in the flying fuck would the elements care about some goddamn duel. It's comical lmao

    Thrall lost his connection because he became depressed. That's it. It was all him.
    According to Syegfryed, he was depressed because he knew he cheated. The story doesn't support that claim at all and even describes the actual reason Thrall was depressed but it keeps getting disregarded because then people would need to admit they're wrong.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Warriors or no, they still largely revere the Elements and thus the Shaman who serve them. Thrall is himself conflicted on whether or not he acted in justice or vengeance concerning his final duel with Garrosh, and his self-doubt has closed him off from the Elements as a result so we don't really know how he sees it or if he even can at current.
    A majority of them had no issues when "torturing the elements" was on the menu and actually went with Garrosh back in MOP. That reverence can't have been that strong.

  17. #157
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkthugal View Post
    And the Warsong clan, and multiple other NPCs who convened with Thrall after the fight. You're wrong and you have no argument.
    they didn't saw the fight, they litrally went to a place where they would be alone

    its literally Grrosh words before the cinemtic:
    Thrall says: I challenge you to Mak'gora.
    Vindicator Yrel says: Thrall, no.
    Garrosh Hellscream says: Very well, shaman. We finish this alone, where it all began...
    Garrosh Hellscream says: ... at the Stones of Prophecy.
    and the cinematic don't show anyone, even aftr thrall is thinking about alone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    lmfao no it's not headcanon, dude. Just because you can't accept the actual lore doesn't mean it's headcanon
    show it then, show where is the canon source of that, random words of the wiki with no link associate are not "actual lore"
    It was explained in the lore why Thrall was depressed an it literally had nothing to do with "cheating"
    If he won the mak'gora in a fair fight, with justice, he would not be depressed, you think all the self doubt and self punishement was by nothing? blizzard had to change so he don't pass as a cheater, "look thrall have depression ttoally not because he ceat guys, is because others ~~reasons~~ just trust us, he is not cheater
    As for everything else, there is no lore stating that mak'gora has universal rules. The lore dictates the opposite.
    only the wiki - with no canon source - does that, the rules of a mak'gora, the OG one are described in the Shattering, between Cairne and Garrosh
    The rules of each fight are determined by the combatants. If no rules are stated, you can use everything at your disposal Just because you don't like it doesn't make it headcanon.
    show me a canon source, where is stated that "if no rules are sated you can use everything at your disposal" i bet you to show where this piece of lore is coming from

    it make no freaking sense to a mak'gora, an orcish duel of honor for the participants to use "anything at their dispossal unles sstated otherwise" this is so nonsensical that i don't even know if you are reading yourself. "i am a chieftin... i have all those soliders at my dispossal, i can use anything? well i will bring those soliers with me, it will be totally fine and no cheat t all!1!!

    Its literally the opposite, the people have to state other rules and be ok with that, just like the rule of "no killing" that thrall came up, if no new rules are described, you use the normal ones, The original Mak'gora is described in Shattering book, anything beyond that is people agreeing with the terms, like a paladin x a shaman, both were using magic

    Calling the elements a "third party intervening" is just ridiculous. If an earth elemental or something rose from the ground, that's one thing. But Thrall using the elements via shaman magic isn't the elements intervening so therefore it was still a 1v1 fight.
    its a third party, their are not just different entities but also a different weapon, where in a ma'gora you use only one, or at least the same number of weapons.

    Thrall fought as a warrior and use the doomhammer, got his ass kicked and had to ask the elements for help and use then to win, cheat plain and simple.
    Last edited by Syegfryed; 2020-09-24 at 07:10 AM.

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    they didn't saw the fight, they litrally went to a place where they would be alone

    its literally Grrosh words before the cinemtic:


    and the cinematic don't show anyone, even aftr thrall is thinking about alone.

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    show it then, show where is the canon source of that, random words of the wiki with no link associate are not "actual lore"


    If he won the mak'gora in a fair fight, with justice, he would not be depressed, you think all the self doubt and self punishement was by nothing? blizzard had to change so he don't pass as a cheater, "look thrall have depression ttoally not because he ceat guys, is because others ~~reasons~~ just trust us, he is not cheater


    only the wiki - with no canon source - does that, the rules of a mak'gora, the OG one are described in the Shattering, between Cairne and Garrosh


    show me a canon source, where is stated that "if no rules are sated you can use everything at your disposal" i bet you to show where this piece of lore is coming from

    it make no freaking sense to a mak'gora, an orcish duel of honor for the participants to use "anything at their dispossal unles sstated otherwise" this is so nonsensical that i don't even know if you are reading yourself. "i am a chieftin... i have all those soliders at my dispossal, i can use anything? well i will bring those soliers with me, it will be totally fine and no cheat t all!1!!

    Its literally the opposite, the people have to state other rules and be ok with that, just like the rule of "no killing" that thrall came up, if no new rules are described, you use the normal ones, The original Mak'gora is described in Shattering book, anything beyond that is people agreeing with the terms, like a paladin x a shaman, both were using magic



    its a third party, their are not just different entities but also a different weapon, where in a ma'gora you use only one, or at least the same number of weapons.

    Thrall fought as a warrior and use the doomhammer, got his ass kicked and had to ask the elements for help and use then to win, cheat plain and simple.
    there is only one universal rule for mak'gora. It's 1 on 1. That's it. any other rules are stated by the combatants. If neither combatants declare any rules then that means the only rule is 1v1. Stop declaring your headcanons as fact. It has been stated in the lore the reason Thrall was depressed was due to his inner conflict and self-doubt that had absolutely nothing to do with any alleged cheating. His self-doubt was created because he realized he failed in making Garrosh warchief. His inner turmoil involved him doubting himself as a shaman. It literally had nothing to do with the mak'gora.

    I've supplied sources and you disregarded them. Now it's your turn. Show me a canon source that proves that there are universal rules for every single fight. Show me a canon source that declares Thrall was depressed because he knew he "cheated". Show me a canon source that declares magic isn't allowed no matter what.

    The Doomhammer channels the elements. A shaman wielding the elements is not bringing a new weapon nor is a third party intervening. There is no universal rule anywhere in the lore that states you can only use one weapon during a mak'gora. That was a rule specific to the fight between Garrosh and Cairne because it was stated before the fight started. No such rule was stated by either Garrosh or Thrall so therefore Thrall didn't cheat.

    Stop spouting your headcanons as facts because you're making it utterly impossible for the conversation to continue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zmagoslav View Post
    A majority of them had no issues when "torturing the elements" was on the menu and actually went with Garrosh back in MOP. That reverence can't have been that strong.
    It wasn't a majority. The dark shamans were a group that enslaved the elements rather than working together with the elements. They were and still are frowned upon by the majority of the orc population. It's why we had no issue murdering them during SoO.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Nathreim View Post
    Ugh. Rules for Makgora are decided by the participants. How do people not understand this yet?
    First I hear of this. Is it stated in any source?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nathreim View Post
    Garrosh gained the favor of the elements in AU Draenor because he came with the warning of the impending Legion invasion they didn't want him to die.
    First I hear of this as well, I recall the elements of Draenor hated Garrosh's presence, because he was from another universe and therefore his energies didn't quite fit (or some shit like that).

  20. #160
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    there is only one universal rule for mak'gora. It's 1 on 1.
    thats simple not true, we saw the original mak'gora rules in the shattering book, where Cairne invoked the original mak'gora, THE one they used in orchish tradition, stop ignoring it.

    Besides, even if it was 1 on 1 Thrall didn't fight alone, we fight with the elements
    That's it. any other rules are stated by the combatants.
    the oficial rules are stated in the book:

    - 1 x 1
    - one weapon for each, if it falls you use your fists
    - no armor, only loincloth
    - shaman blessing
    - one witness
    - to the death

    those are the rules, anything beyond that is the participants actually changing to better fit the scenario, yet, its always a honorable fight where both participants were even

    Garrosh had the Gorehowl, Thrall had the doomhammer, they both fall, Garrosh used his fists and didn't pick up his weapon, like tradition demands, Thrall asked aid and used the elements, yeah h honorable 1x fight, not cheated at all

    if those shit were allowed every chieftain to exist would be a shaman simple because he could zap his opponent, exactly the question OP raised.

    Stop declaring your headcanons as fact.
    And here im waiting where those "facts" of yours, you have yet to show the canon source of that

    It has been stated in the lore the reason Thrall was depressed was due to his inner conflict and self-doubt that had absolutely nothing to do with any alleged cheating.
    Like i said, yes, its how blizzard put to not pass up thrall as a cheater, but yet, if he fought honourable, there was no reason for him to have any self doubt or inner conflict, take that as you want

    I've supplied sources and you disregarded them. Now it's your turn.
    you didn't, you link the wiki with only their words without a single sourced attached to then

    the canon lore is showed in the Shattering book, no matter how people like to ignore it
    Show me a canon source that proves that there are universal rules for every single fight
    you are changing goals, but there is the set of rules of the original mak'gora, again, in the book
    The Doomhammer channels the elements.
    he was not using the doomhammer where he invoked the elements

    A shaman wielding the elements is not bringing a new weapon nor is a third party intervening.
    It is, its a thirdy party and was not his weapon, again, just like the poison, its bullshit

    There is no universal rule anywhere in the lore that states you can only use one weapon during a mak'gora. That was a rule specific to the fight between Garrosh and Cairne because it was stated before the fight started. No such rule was stated by either Garrosh or Thrall so therefore Thrall didn't cheat.
    Again, wrong, that is the rules of the mak'gora, that was not a rule specific to this fight, this is a made up shit, Cairne invoke the original mak'gora, therefore, they use the original rules, therefore, there is a set of rules of a mk'gora for then to change something, simple as that.
    Stop spouting your headcanons as facts because you're making it utterly impossible for the conversation to continue.
    Again, you are the one parroting the headcanon of the wiki and making up things

    1- nowhere is said there is no rules and they do the rules on the spot
    1- nowhere is said that if they don't stated anything beforehand everything is valid

    you literally made those up

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    Quote Originally Posted by Viconia View Post
    First I hear of this. Is it stated in any source?
    there is no source because they are making up stuff based on the wiki, some rules are changed/adapted to fit better the scenario/event/time, but there was always a set of rules they followed(they forget tht to change/adapt, there must be something before)

    Thrall changed the rule of fighting to the death, Later if they were in hurry, or they need a quick resolution, they could fight on the spot, so they adapted, no need for shaman blessing or using loincloth, when a shaman and a paladin fought, they both used magic

    First I hear of this as well, I recall the elements of Draenor hated Garrosh's presence, because he was from another universe and therefore his energies didn't quite fit (or some shit like that).
    yes, it stated in one shortstory that the elements disliked Garrosh presence
    Last edited by Syegfryed; 2020-09-24 at 10:49 AM.

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