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  1. #1

    Horde If using Magic is not cheating, why didn't Ner'zhul or Gul'dan challenge Grommash?

    AU Ner'zhul could have challenged AU Grommash and chea... won the Mak'gora by just using his Shadow magic (mindblast, shadow corruption etc), same way Thrall did to Garrosh and stopped the Iron Horde.

    Same with Gul'dan. He could easily slaughtered Grommash in a Mak'gora with his magic, and take "honorably" over the Iron Horde and made them drink Fel Blood, and eventually installed Blackhand, Kilrogg or Kargath as new Warchief.

    What stopped Ner'zhul or Gul'dan from doing this? We saw at least Gul'dan taking down Grom in 1 sec. Defeating Chieftain/Warchief in Mak'gora gives you immense honor.... of course, if it's not seen as cheating by huge portion of viewers.

    Was using magic in Mak'gora normalized after Thrall's duel? Because we can't have our nicest neighbor, most humanized Orc, never does anything wrong Orc, your perfect son-of-law Go'el a.k.a Thrall labeled as cheater? Despite that viewers thought he cheated.

    The fact that Thrall got away from using magic an Orcish duel of Garrosh, creates plotholes. Imo it feels like the movie has well better thought about this than the game. I get Metzen hated his favorite Orc boy called cheater, but he is retired. Mak'gora rules need to be redefined for return of Garrosh and make sense with PAST lore.

    Mak'gora meaning = Duel of HONOR.

    There is a reason why every Orc Chieftain is a Warrior. And is honored and respected by their clan. Cheating is NOT honorable. Not by humans not by Orcs.
    Last edited by XalAtoh; 2020-09-22 at 12:21 PM.

  2. #2
    Thrall invoked Mak'gora to challenge Garrosh, but he didn't take over the Warsong Clan when he won. So it's arguable that either: 1) the Warsong refused to follow Thrall because he cheated, or 2) it wasn't a true Mak'gora because Thrall had no intent to lead the clan.
    You're not allowed to discuss conspiracy theories on mmo-champion, which makes me wonder what they're trying to hide.

  3. #3
    How did thrall get away with it?
    He lost his connection with the elements after the fight.

  4. #4
    Orcboi NatePsy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aranis View Post
    How did thrall get away with it?
    He lost his connection with the elements after the fight.
    I believe that was only because he used Doomhammer/the power he borrows from the Elements for his own gain and they weren't a fan of that, so they stopped answering his call.
    Last edited by NatePsy; 2020-09-22 at 12:31 PM.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by NatePsy View Post
    I believe that was only because he used Doomhammer/the power he borrows from the Elements for his own gain and they weren't a fan of that, so they stopped answering his call.
    Elementals aren't exactly benevolent, they don't mind it when their power is used for even worse things. The problem with Thrall was he no longer felt he was worthy of them so he involuntarily cut himself off from their power.

  6. #6
    Herald of the Titans Nathreim's Avatar
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    Ugh. Rules for Makgora are decided by the participants. How do people not understand this yet?

    Both Thrall and Garrosh already broke the rules of the traditional Makgora by wearing armor. They were not using the traditional rules from the start and Garrosh would not limit Thrall anyway.

    Gul'dan vs Durotan from the movies was a fist fight the rules are clear here even if they are not spelled out in detail for the audience. If Mike Tyson pulled a pistol and shot his opponent you would call it cheating.

    Thrall's powers suffered not because he cheated but because he forced the elements to kill Garrosh in his anger. Garrosh gained the favor of the elements in AU Draenor because he came with the warning of the impending Legion invasion they didn't want him to die. When Thrall forced the issue he used dark shamanism and his guilt over doing so has made him question himself.

  7. #7
    Because it is cheating. That's why Sylvanas didn't oneshot Saurfang with her magic bolt at the beginning of the fight, and did so only after she already revealed her true nature.
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by XalAtoh View Post
    AU Ner'zhul could have challenged AU Grommash and chea... won the Mak'gora by just using his Shadow magic (mindblast, shadow corruption etc), same way Thrall did to Garrosh and stopped the Iron Horde.

    Same with Gul'dan. He could easily slaughtered Grommash in a Mak'gora with his magic, and take "honorably" over the Iron Horde and made them drink Fel Blood, and eventually installed Blackhand, Kilrogg or Kargath as new Warchief.

    What stopped Ner'zhul or Gul'dan from doing this? We saw at least Gul'dan taking down Grom in 1 sec. Defeating Chieftain/Warchief in Mak'gora gives you immense honor.... of course, if it's not seen as cheating by huge portion of viewers.

    Was using magic in Mak'gora normalized after Thrall's duel? Because we can't have our nicest neighbor, most humanized Orc, never does anything wrong Orc, your perfect son-of-law Go'el a.k.a Thrall labeled as cheater? Despite that viewers thought he cheated.

    The fact that Thrall got away from using magic an Orcish duel of Garrosh, creates plotholes. Imo it feels like the movie has well better thought about this than the game. I get Metzen hated his favorite Orc boy called cheater, but he is retired. Mak'gora rules need to be redefined for return of Garrosh and make sense with PAST lore.

    Mak'gora meaning = Duel of HONOR.

    There is a reason why every Orc Chieftain is a Warrior. And is honored and respected by their clan. Cheating is NOT honorable. Not by humans not by Orcs.
    What would be honorable about a warrior fighting a caster who can’t use magic? Or are you admitting that casters are more powerful then warriors so they have to gimp themselves to give the warrior a chance? A duel should be about everyone giving their personal best as far as I’m aware. Also not every orc chieftain was a warrior. Nez’rul was the first warchief and he’s a shaman, Drexar the chieftain of the frostwolf is also a shaman.

    To answer your first question Nez was in a depressed state once he figured out he was tricked and later replaced by Kil’jaeden. Gul’dan never wanted to be publicly leading the horde. Him and the shadow council wanted to control it from behind the scene while they served the demons will.
    Last edited by alt-ithist; 2020-09-22 at 01:01 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ruargh
    I'm baffled that something this simple can be so hard for some people... I guess we can't blame blizzard for dumbing down the game any longer, because apparently it very much needed :

  9. #9
    Gul'dan had the opinion of the Iron Horde turned against fel magic by Garrosh, even in victory he would not have had popular support. Regardless, he didn't have the opportunity before he was turned into a battery. Besides, honour was never really something he valued, as we see in the coup against Grom with Kilrogg's aid. Rather than a mak'gora, he just imprisoned the former warchief.

    As for Ner'zhul, even in the MU he didn't want to rule the Horde, but did so because he was tricked into believing it was necessary. He had no motive for taking control of the Horde, and at the time of his death, Ner'zhul had no reason to issue a mak'gora. Grommash's leadership had not been proven a failure at the time.

    Magic is only cheating if the participants agree that it is. A mak'gora took place between Shagara and Ashra Valandril years before Thrall killed Garrosh which saw extensive use of magic on both sides. Thrall also used magic during his first mak'gora with Garrosh shortly before the scourge invasion of Orgrimmar.
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  10. #10
    The Lightbringer Maljinwo's Avatar
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    Mak'gora is just a fancy way of trying to kill someone to prove a point
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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by alt-ithist View Post
    What would be honorable about a warrior fighting a caster who can’t use magic? Or are you admitting that casters are more powerful then warriors so they have to gimp themselves to give the warrior a chance? A duel should be about everyone giving their personal best as far as I’m aware. Also not every orc chieftain was a warrior. Nez’rul was the first warchief and he’s a shaman, Drexar the chieftain of the frostwolf is also a shaman.

    To answer your first question Nez was in a depressed state once he figured out he was tricked and later replaced by Kil’jaeden. Gul’dan never wanted to be publicly leading the horde. Him and the shadow council wanted to control it from behind the scene while they served the demons will.
    As stated, rules are decided by the participants but traditionally that means choosing a weapon and someone to bless that weapon. Orcs value strength of arms over strength of mind so generally only warrior types are Warchief. The orcs are generally a lot less willing to follow a caster. Shaman are somewhat an exception because they are spiritual leaders in a sense, but even then Garrosh was often seen as a "better" warchief by many of the orcs because he was physically much stronger than Thrall.

  12. #12
    Because it was cheating.

    It'd be a lot easier if they'd nail down specific rules instead of going rule of cool every time, but my interpretation is:

    -ahead of the duel, ground rules are set up. We had one that was both melee with no weapons, armor, or shirts (movie) One that was class abilities, armor, and weapons (wotlk), two that was melee weapons+armor (AU draenor, bfa) and so forth. It's pretty lax as long as both parties agree to something.

    -the only consistent pattern with cheating is it involves crippling your opponent so they're unable to fight, then killing them while they're helpless. So secretly poisoning your weapon, using fel magic to weaken the opponent to where they can barely move, or grappling the opponent in a stone claw all qualify.

    Sylvanas likely qualifies as well, both in shadow-poisoning the daggers which seem to weaken Saurfang and then just doing the equivalent of pulling out a hidden gun and shooting someone in a sword duel.

    Last edited by Powerogue; 2020-09-22 at 02:06 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daevelian View Post
    So this is how far the Lore forum has fallen? Eesh.
    I take it back, BfA is not the lowest the games lore could have gone, this thread proves that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    And just like the thread before it, let's back away from sexualizing Azshara and return to the original topic at hand.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalcheus View Post
    Thrall invoked Mak'gora to challenge Garrosh, but he didn't take over the Warsong Clan when he won. So it's arguable that either: 1) the Warsong refused to follow Thrall because he cheated, or 2) it wasn't a true Mak'gora because Thrall had no intent to lead the clan.
    Mak'gora is just a challenge of individual combat. While it's often used to claim your opponent's position, you are not required to.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    Because it was cheating.

    It'd be a lot easier if they'd nail down specific rules instead of going rule of cool every time, but my interpretation is:

    -ahead of the duel, ground rules are set up. We had one that was both melee with no weapons, armor, or shirts (movie) One that was class abilities, armor, and weapons (wotlk), two that was melee weapons+armor (AU draenor, bfa) and so forth. It's pretty lax as long as both parties agree to something.

    -the only consistent pattern with cheating is it involves crippling your opponent so they're unable to fight, then killing them while they're helpless. So secretly poisoning your weapon, using fel magic to weaken the opponent to where they can barely move, or grappling the opponent in a stone claw all qualify.

    Sylvanas likely qualifies as well, both in shadow-poisoning the daggers which seem to weaken Saurfang and then just doing the equivalent of pulling out a hidden gun and shooting someone in a sword duel.
    Nobody complained when Thrall used lightning bolts in his first mak'gora with Garrosh.
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  15. #15
    The Insane General Zanjin's Avatar
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    fel magic and poisons are taboo i believe.
    everything else is fair game unless stated otherwise for the conditions of the duel.
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  16. #16
    Pretty sure magic has been said to be allowed as long as things are kept honorable right? Also didnt thralle explain that the elements got mad at him for using their power for vengeance and thats why he lost the power, not because he "cheated".

  17. #17
    I have a thought. The problem with thrall wasn't magic. It was that thrall EXECUTED Garrosh AFTER thrall had won. Which was out of character for him. Thrall had garrosh beat when he grabbed him with the earth hand. The fight was over, then Thrall killed him with lightning. For someone like thrall, this act was way out of character, and outside of Thralls personal view of honor.

    If we watch the fight again. Thrall is clearly the more skilled warrior, he has complete control of the fight until garrosh throws his weapon as a gambit (an actual combat tactic in history, and a risky one.) This surprises thrall enough for garrosh to gain control, only for a short time before Thrall uses magic to win the fight.

    Tldr, thrall didn't cheat, but overstepped and betrayed his own sense of morality by executing a subdued opponent

  18. #18
    I'm sorry I don't think I am following what the OP is trying to say
    Why would Ner'zhul or Gul'dan challenge Grom?
    Are we talking AU or MU?

    If AU - Gul'dan literally got tricked and caught, but then next time they met he actually owned Grom?
    Why would Ner'zhul challenge grom if he was literally summoning Dark Naaru and doing a lot of more important things?
    I'm lost what would be the purpose of this.

    Gul'dan needed Grom to be his warrior enhanced by fel and to lead warriors into battle.
    Ner'zhul was never power thirsty? He had his own goals

  19. #19
    The Lightbringer Darknessvamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    Because it was cheating.

    It'd be a lot easier if they'd nail down specific rules instead of going rule of cool every time, but my interpretation is:

    -ahead of the duel, ground rules are set up. We had one that was both melee with no weapons, armor, or shirts (movie) One that was class abilities, armor, and weapons (wotlk), two that was melee weapons+armor (AU draenor, bfa) and so forth. It's pretty lax as long as both parties agree to something.

    -the only consistent pattern with cheating is it involves crippling your opponent so they're unable to fight, then killing them while they're helpless. So secretly poisoning your weapon, using fel magic to weaken the opponent to where they can barely move, or grappling the opponent in a stone claw all qualify.

    Sylvanas likely qualifies as well, both in shadow-poisoning the daggers which seem to weaken Saurfang and then just doing the equivalent of pulling out a hidden gun and shooting someone in a sword duel.
    Except Magic isn't against the rules of Mak'gora and buffing your weapons with magic isn't considered a slight against it. Not to mention Sylvanas didn't poison her daggers as it's more akin to the magic she has been using throughout the expansion cinematics and it seems strange that you would say her blades weakened Saurfang considering the moves he pulls off minutes later after being slashed. In fact it's arguable that what Saurfang did by wielding Shalamayne and splitting it during their fight is considered cheating by Mak'gora's standards, he deliberately used an underhanded tactic to try and gain an advantage in the fight by dishonorably preparing an advantage ahead of the fight's commencement. No different from Magatha Grimtotem poisoning Garrosh's blade and dishonouring his and Cairne's Mak'gora, the only difference is Garrosh didn't know about the poison and Saurfang deliberately dishonoured the Mak'gora.
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  20. #20
    Blizzard is incredibly inconsistent with the rules of Mak'gora. At one point only one weapon was allowed, and that one weapon would have included magic. The Mak'Gora between Thrall and Garrosh kind of shows that because at first Thrall only fights with Doomhammer, and when he is being overwhelmed and gets very angry he calls on the elements.

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