If using Magic is not cheating, why didn't Ner'zhul or Gul'dan challenge Grommash?

[Specialka]

1 - only one weapon or the same amount of weapons is allowed in a mak'gora
2- Mak'gora is a 1x1 fight.

Thrall literally broke the 2 fundamental rules by using more than one weapon than Garrosh(doomhammer and magic) and didn't fight alone(him and the elements)


Same thing as thrall vs Garrosh, while the elements were not involved in the fight and was done without Garrosh knowing he would use, becuse thrall weapon was already being chosed, the doomhammer.


Again, the shattering is where you can find the established rules for mak'gora, anything beside that is the participants adapting to the moment/period of time



there is absolutely cheat on Thrall fight and sylvanas fight, and the fight in the movie with gul'dan and durotan.

You saying "there was no agreement for magic to not be used" is not a valid thing, because the actual mak'gora do not used that, there should be an explicit agreement for magic to be allowed, not the other way around, just like the mak'gora of a paladin x a shaman, where BOTH were magic users.

there is literally 3 stances, in canon, that magic was used in mak'gora, one it was a fight between a shaman and a paladin, both magic users, both were equal in weapons and agreed on this, the fight of thrall and Garrosh, where thrall used more than one weapon and was not a 1x1 fight, and Sylvanas vs Saurfang where she blasted his ass when again, they didn't agreed on using magic, just two weapons.

You can clearly see the difference between the 2 cheated fights and the one were both fighters were even.

but thrall didn't cheat because "we are saying so", yeah big plothole, thats why he have crippiling depression now.

I did not see nor hear Garrosh calling Thrall a cheater after or during their 2 mak'gora.

Case closed.

[Zmagoslav]

I did not see nor hear Garrosh calling Thrall a cheater after or during their 2 mak'gora.

Case closed.

Yes, because proud warriors often resort to whining about the cheating.
Let's not forget it was 2 grown-up prideful orcish warriors fighting, not whiny forum dwellers.

As I'm referring to the Orcish view of it, and even stated "most Orcs," it needn't be nor would it fit the definition of "universal."

The vast majority of orcs are warriors, so i have my doubts they see it that way. Thrall is listed above for a reason; he's a top-tier shaman and even he didn't see it that way.

[TheRevenantHero]

1 - only one weapon or the same amount of weapons is allowed in a mak'gora
2- Mak'gora is a 1x1 fight.

Thrall literally broke the 2 fundamental rules by using more than one weapon than Garrosh(doomhammer and magic) and didn't fight alone(him and the elements)


Same thing as thrall vs Garrosh, while the elements were not involved in the fight and was done without Garrosh knowing he would use, becuse thrall weapon was already being chosed, the doomhammer.


Again, the shattering is where you can find the established rules for mak'gora, anything beside that is the participants adapting to the moment/period of time



there is absolutely cheat on Thrall fight and sylvanas fight, and the fight in the movie with gul'dan and durotan.

You saying "there was no agreement for magic to not be used" is not a valid thing, because the actual mak'gora do not used that, there should be an explicit agreement for magic to be allowed, not the other way around, just like the mak'gora of a paladin x a shaman, where BOTH were magic users.

there is literally 3 stances, in canon, that magic was used in mak'gora, one it was a fight between a shaman and a paladin, both magic users, both were equal in weapons and agreed on this, the fight of thrall and Garrosh, where thrall used more than one weapon and was not a 1x1 fight, and Sylvanas vs Saurfang where she blasted his ass when again, they didn't agreed on using magic, just two weapons.

You can clearly see the difference between the 2 cheated fights and the one were both fighters were even.

but thrall didn't cheat because "we are saying so", yeah big plothole, thats why he have crippiling depression now.

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no one knows about it, only Thrall, and he have crippling depression to this day because he know deep down, he cheated.



no it would not, not even if the elements did on themselves without being asked

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Mak%27gora Read this.
"The rules of a Mak'gora seem to be different between each Mak'gora since they are chosen and set by the participants themselves. Generally, there are thus no specific rules. There are only two consistent themes in all Mak'gora: once dropped, a weapon cannot be retrieved by either opponent and that the pair must fight to the death or until submission. Magic, for example, has never been stated to be forbidden, and has, in fact, been used in multiple Mak'gora duels and thus seems to be permitted. Similarly, many Mak'gora duels have involved both fighters wearing body armor as well, but it can also be forbidden when explicitly required."

Lore dictates that there are no set rules. They are set by each combatant. If no rules are set before the fight, that means you can use everything you have at your disposal. There is nothing in the lore that explicitly states magic is cheating. That's literally just your own headcanon. The established lore disproves your headcanon. If not using magic isn't established as rule for the duel, then both opponents are permitted to use magic.

Sylvanas didn't cheat since a rule regarding the use of magic wasn't established. Same with the Thrall and Garrosh fight. So seriously stop calling it cheating because it absolutely isn't. Nothing in the lore supports your claim.

Oh and Thrall was depressed because he had been forced to kill Garrosh and deal with the fact that he was what weakened the Horde by making Garrosh warchief.

"Another popular misconception is that Thrall became a weaker shaman as a result of killing Garrosh with elemental magic. In reality, it was his tremendous guilt, self-doubt and internal struggle that were the reason for him not hearing the elements anymore."

So in short, you're completely wrong.

[worldofwarcraft4]

1 - only one weapon or the same amount of weapons is allowed in a mak'gora
2- Mak'gora is a 1x1 fight.

Thrall literally broke the 2 fundamental rules by using more than one weapon than Garrosh(doomhammer and magic) and didn't fight alone(him and the elements)


Same thing as thrall vs Garrosh, while the elements were not involved in the fight and was done without Garrosh knowing he would use, becuse thrall weapon was already being chosed, the doomhammer.


Again, the shattering is where you can find the established rules for mak'gora, anything beside that is the participants adapting to the moment/period of time



there is absolutely cheat on Thrall fight and sylvanas fight, and the fight in the movie with gul'dan and durotan.

You saying "there was no agreement for magic to not be used" is not a valid thing, because the actual mak'gora do not used that, there should be an explicit agreement for magic to be allowed, not the other way around, just like the mak'gora of a paladin x a shaman, where BOTH were magic users.

there is literally 3 stances, in canon, that magic was used in mak'gora, one it was a fight between a shaman and a paladin, both magic users, both were equal in weapons and agreed on this, the fight of thrall and Garrosh, where thrall used more than one weapon and was not a 1x1 fight, and Sylvanas vs Saurfang where she blasted his ass when again, they didn't agreed on using magic, just two weapons.

You can clearly see the difference between the 2 cheated fights and the one were both fighters were even.

but thrall didn't cheat because "we are saying so", yeah big plothole, thats why he have crippiling depression now.

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no one knows about it, only Thrall, and he have crippling depression to this day because he know deep down, he cheated.



no it would not, not even if the elements did on themselves without being asked

You keep insisting on headcannon. Stop fapping to Garrosh and quit using headcannon as facts.

Infracted.

[Aucald]

The vast majority of orcs are warriors, so i have my doubts they see it that way. Thrall is listed above for a reason; he's a top-tier shaman and even he didn't see it that way.

Warriors or no, they still largely revere the Elements and thus the Shaman who serve them. Thrall is himself conflicted on whether or not he acted in justice or vengeance concerning his final duel with Garrosh, and his self-doubt has closed him off from the Elements as a result so we don't really know how he sees it or if he even can at current.

[Ulfric Trumpcloak]

Didn't Thrall lose the elements on Azeroth after cheating? Which is funny because he killed the Garrosh in au draenor, and the elements in mu dreanor answer to him just fine(shadows rising).

Thrall cheated, but nobody cares because Garrosh was the bad guy and he had to die one way or another.

[Aucald]

no it would not, not even if the elements did on themselves without being asked

Sure it would, especially if the Elements did it themselves without being asked. Very little doubt that many Orcs would see that as the direct censure of the Elements.

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Didn't Thrall lose the elements on Azeroth after cheating? Which is funny because he killed the Garrosh in au draenor, and the elements in mu dreanor answer to him just fine(shadows rising).

Thrall cheated, but nobody cares because Garrosh was the bad guy and he had to die one way or another.

Thrall's use of Shamanism to defeat Garrosh in their second Mak'gora at Nagrand was not a cheat, as Thrall is exonerated and his loss of Shamanism is explained in the Words of Wind and Earth concerning the Doomhammer:

Through the years, Thrall wielded the Doomhammer with honor and integrity. However, following his execution of the malign warchief Garrosh Hellscream, Thrall felt conflicted. This internal struggle was reflected in the Doomhammer as well. In Thrall's mind, the weapon that had embodied the ideals of justice and virtue had now come to represent vengeance.

Thrall's own internal conflict is the reason he surrendered the Doomhammer and has issues with his Shamanic power today, not the censure of the Elements.

[Arkthugal]

no one knows about it, only Thrall, and he have crippling depression to this day because he know deep down, he cheated.

And everyone else who watched it. Thrall is depressed because he had to kill Grom's son, not because he "cheated".

[Ulfric Trumpcloak]

Sure it would, especially if the Elements did it themselves without being asked. Very little doubt that many Orcs would see that as the direct censure of the Elements.

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Thrall's use of Shamanism to defeat Garrosh in their second Mak'gora at Nagrand was not a cheat, as Thrall is exonerated and his loss of Shamanism is explained in the Words of Wind and Earth concerning the Doomhammer:

Thrall's own internal conflict is the reason he surrendered the Doomhammer and has issues with his Shamanic power today, not the censure of the Elements.

Idk about that. But in shadows rising he mentions wanting to be back in draenor because in azeroth the elements don't answer to him.

[Timester]

i disagree
Orgrim made him his successor bcs of his character, not bcs he could throw a punch, if that was only criterium Grommash - skilled and much more experienced warior himself - would be better choice

Except it's clear on the Rise of the Horde novel, that Doomhammer picked Thrall because his strength, and the fact that Durotan was the only one to beat Doomhammer on a fight in the past.

[Wyattbw09]

How is this still a open question? I thought it was a established fact Thrall cheated. The game makes as clear as day by showing that by Thrall’s abusing the elementals to win and dragging them into the dirt they flat out abandoned him for now years.

That said Thrall is alive and so far seemingly could care less about the elements, and Garrosh is dead, so Thrall probably made the right call.

[Timester]

How is this still a open question? I thought it was a established fact Thrall cheated.

It was never established and the opposite is actually referred in lore.

"Long ago, before Orgrim passed the Doomhammer to Thrall, he confided that although the weapon had once brought him closer to the elements, over time it had become a dead weight in his hands.

Through the years, Thrall wielded the Doomhammer with honor and integrity. However, following his execution of the malign warchief Garrosh Hellscream, Thrall felt conflicted. This internal struggle was reflected in the Doomhammer as well. In Thrall's mind, the weapon that had embodied the ideals of justice and virtue had now come to represent vengeance.

History repeated itself as the Doomhammer had once again become a "dead weight." This has caused many to wonder whether the Doomhammer will reclaim its place as a symbol of righteous wrath."

[Wyattbw09]

The Words of Wind and Earth book only make it more clear. We know the elements abandoned him because everything we see Thrall in game or a book they find a way to remind us.

Thrall’s own words paint himself as dishonorable and unworthy of Doomhammer. Thrall knew he was a scumbag.

[TheRevenantHero]

How is this still a open question? I thought it was a established fact Thrall cheated. The game makes as clear as day by showing that by Thrall’s abusing the elementals to win and dragging them into the dirt they flat out abandoned him for now years.

That said Thrall is alive and so far seemingly could care less about the elements, and Garrosh is dead, so Thrall probably made the right call.

Except he didn't cheat. As I have mentioned several times, if neither opponent sets any rules then they can use everything at their disposal. Garrosh didn't say "No magic" so therefore Thrall wasn't cheating when used his shaman powers.

Thrall didn't abuse the elements. It was inner conflict and self-doubt that caused him to lose access to the elements. It has nothing to do with him "cheating".

[CTiranno]

AU Ner'zhul could have challenged AU Grommash and chea... won the Mak'gora by just using his Shadow magic (mindblast, shadow corruption etc), same way Thrall did to Garrosh and stopped the Iron Horde.

Same with Gul'dan. He could easily slaughtered Grommash in a Mak'gora with his magic, and take "honorably" over the Iron Horde and made them drink Fel Blood, and eventually installed Blackhand, Kilrogg or Kargath as new Warchief.

What stopped Ner'zhul or Gul'dan from doing this? We saw at least Gul'dan taking down Grom in 1 sec. Defeating Chieftain/Warchief in Mak'gora gives you immense honor.... of course, if it's not seen as cheating by huge portion of viewers.

Was using magic in Mak'gora normalized after Thrall's duel? Because we can't have our nicest neighbor, most humanized Orc, never does anything wrong Orc, your perfect son-of-law Go'el a.k.a Thrall labeled as cheater? Despite that viewers thought he cheated.

The fact that Thrall got away from using magic an Orcish duel of Garrosh, creates plotholes. Imo it feels like the movie has well better thought about this than the game. I get Metzen hated his favorite Orc boy called cheater, but he is retired. Mak'gora rules need to be redefined for return of Garrosh and make sense with PAST lore.

Mak'gora meaning = Duel of HONOR.

There is a reason why every Orc Chieftain is a Warrior. And is honored and respected by their clan. Cheating is NOT honorable. Not by humans not by Orcs.

To answer your post and not the whole "Thrall cheated/didn't cheat".
Psychology and concentration are truly important elements inside the world of Warcraft when we talk about casters (outside gameplay). Even Jaina, powerful as she is, in the novels needs to concentrate to cast her spells. More powerful the spell, more time she needs to do that.

Warriors can break that concentration by shouting (martial artists used that too in our world and is called "kiai", a shout originally intended to intimidate an opponent while breaking his concentration) or by pressing the caster with whatever means possible, like attacking or throwing weapons at them, just to not give him/her the time to cast any spell.

Obviously, a skilled caster is going to need very few seconds to cast a spell but that is where individual psychology starts to be an important element to consider. While normally Ner'zhul would probably be confident enough to challenge Grom and defeat him, his AU version knew that losing the duel would have meant the end of his entire clan, apparently a burden too great even for Ner'zhul to challenge "safely" Grom.

For Gul'dan was probably the same. He already failed his masters at the beginning of WoD so he couldn't take the risk to fail them again, probably for this reason he took his time to strike. And when he did, he did it with a clear strategy in his mind. He surprised Grom, to not give him the time to work for a duel plan, and mocked the orc to push him to attack without thinking.
In a normal Mak'gora, Grom would have been able to concentrate on the duel and work on some kind of strategy, a risk that apparently even Gul'dan didn't want to take.

[Wyattbw09]

It was inner conflict and self-doubt that caused him to lose access to the elements. It has nothing to do with him "cheating".

That is nothing more than head cannon. Thrall did not cheat are the same as the Sylvanas is trying to save the day crowd. There is zero in game evidence if either they just don’t want to admit their favorite character is a dirt bag.

Thrall chested it not a big deal. The elements abandoned him. There is just no evidence at all that Thrall’s inner conflict was the cause of him to lose elemental magic.

[Hydra]

Anything goes in a traditional Mak'gora. If rules are set beforehand, they need to be followed or it's cheating. Thrall vs Garrosh and Saurfang vs Sylvanas; there were no rules established beforehand so pretty much anything goes there. Gul'dan cheated in his Mak'gora because he used Fel magic. You can't do that considering it's the magic of demons.

[Aucald]

Idk about that. But in shadows rising he mentions wanting to be back in draenor because in azeroth the elements don't answer to him.

In Shadows Rising he wants to be back on Draenor because that's where his wife and sons are, he doesn't mention the Elements specifically to my knowledge. As shown in the Safe Haven cinematic, Thrall also cannot wield his normal Shamanic power on Draenor in any case.

[alt-ithist]

the actual rules were the ones used in the shattering, when Garrosh invoked the "OG" mak'gora against Cairne

only one weapon, if it fall you use your fists
no armor
to the death

the other ones were adapted to the moment/period of time, like not being to the death, armor being allowed if both wee using and were ok, the point was: it still have to be a honorable fight

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Asking a caster to fight without using magic isn’t honorable. Actually it’s pretty damn dishonorable since It would be stacking the fight unfairly against them. If the warrior felt the caster was out of his league to fight fairly, then maybe they should rethink challenging them.

[Timester]

That is nothing more than head cannon.

Headcanon is implying something that is not established in the lore. "Cheating" is never mentioned anywhere, either game or other media. All we know is that Thrall ... "felt conflicted. This internal struggle was reflected in the Doomhammer as well. In Thrall's mind, the weapon that had embodied the ideals of justice and virtue had now come to represent vengeance."