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  1. #321
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    It wont be superior as you will not be able to target one of 1-3 items from specific boss no matter how small chance would be.
    First of all you are assuming everyone will get full 3 options which quite honestly won't be the case for most people as usual rooster is about 25 people.
    Only healers and tanks may be able to get it after like 2-3 months of progression.
    2 is more likely.


    Second you somehow missed the actual drops from the raids being halved which plays a huge role in your chance of actually dropping item.
    Third you aren't looking for just ANY piece of gear. You never were. The only thing that matters is specific item drop.
    And for vault realistically is 2/20 = 10% and it stays the same each week.

    If you bonus roll the same boss each week you are bound to get item because of BLP. Then you have up from 100% chance (if there is only one item from it) to actually 33% chance.

    And considering such things can happen now where you are showered-in-loot, better prepare to not receive some item for entire tier.

    So your math is wrong.

    And don't get me wrong, vault is better for M+ than bonus roll BUT considering halved droprate, overall loot being lower level, gearing speed will be dogshit.
    Mathematically speaking forging system was far superior to low droprate as you will most likely never be able to compete with people that got lucky.
    Your first point is a good one. That math is assuming that the person gets three chances at loot from the vault. The 10.34% for the razorcoral would drop to 6.89% for two chances and 3.45% for only one chance. Those aren't great percentages, but if that one piece is still incredibly valuable, then that 10.34% would still exist to get the heroic level piece (assuming they also clear heroic, which I see no reason not to). Conversely, if the raid member was sat on that particular fight for the week, the chance of bonus rolling the piece would be 0%. But yes, I concede that for mythic raiders who don't get 10 kills and do participate in the boss kill with the targeted piece, bonus rolls are better.

    Regarding your second point, I've only ever been talking specifically about bonus roll removal. The math is only about comparing the Vault to the bonus roll. That's what the topic of the thread is. Yes, fewer pieces of gear will drop, but that change is independent of the bonus roll change. They could have reduced gear drop and kept bonus rolls in; my question is whether that would be better than the vault. As we've discussed, I think it is when someone is full clearing. The usefulness will drop drastically as you fall short of those thresholds (with 2 mythic kills, for instance, greatly favoring coins).

    Third, those numbers are looking for a specific piece of gear among the entire raid loot list. The first example I gave was specifically trying to get Ashvane's Razor Coral, ignoring all other loot. When you have multiple pieces, particularly from multiple boss loot tables that you're looking for, the vault becomes vastly superior to coins.

    Yes, BLP will eventually 100% net you an item from the boss's loot table, but you have to consider how many items are on that loot table. In the instance where you only have one item on that table and it happens to be the one you want, coins are clearly superior. In the examples I looked at, the bosses that had trinkets that I knew people really shot for had 3 or 4 items on their table, so even with 100% coin chance, you still only have a 33% or 25% chance of getting the item you wanted.

    Yes, people will get less loot, but that's because of the loot drop change, not generally because the bonus roll change. Some people will not get their BiS trinkets in a tier, though that still happened in BfA (the only case of loot drama I had to suffer through was a paladin who screamed at a hunter to trade their vita-charged shard since the paladin hadn't gotten one after three months of raiding...the paladin didn't raid with us again). Whether the loot drop change is a healthy one for the game or detrimental to player enthusiasm is a whole different topic that I can't answer with math.

  2. #322
    I think a good middle ground would be 1 bonus roll per raid lockout per player excluding raid finder.
    Super Mario Maker 2: Maker ID 8B7-CTF-NMG

    - Sire Denathrius confirmed to have created the Dreadlords.

  3. #323
    Nah, it's a good solution: you mostly only get gold, so i rather have a lower but steadier supply of gear. Bonus rolls are nice to have, but since there is no need to concern yourself about titanforged gear, it's no longer the "must have feature" of this game.

  4. #324
    this is a good change, no more wasting gold/expansion resource on failed rolls

  5. #325
    Good riddance, long overdue.

  6. #326
    Quote Originally Posted by Jujudrood View Post
    We lose: 2 bonus rolls of our choice, each with a 20% chance of "something" from a specific loot table.
    We gain: Weekly chest that has multiple, based on your play/participation, items associated with the content you complete, randomly chosen from all loot tables.

    Honestly, kinda balances out, if not gives you even more options on loot.
    I mean, bonus rolls were nice when you got what you wanted, but they were also lame af when you got AP or an item you already had (basically, gold).
    Hell, I wish I kept track bc I'm pretty sure I bonus rolled more duplicate gear (read: useless) than anything I actually could use this xpac.
    Bye.
    I'll take the chances with the box.
    At least then it's only one disappointment per week (instead of two separate ones).
    Win?
    You also can't get relevant gear outside of mythic raiding though so that weekly chest is the ONLY way to get gear and it's only really one choice unless you play an insane amount of WoW so it's not much of an improvement even there.

  7. #327
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    You also can't get relevant gear outside of mythic raiding though so that weekly chest is the ONLY way to get gear and it's only really one choice unless you play an insane amount of WoW so it's not much of an improvement even there.
    Sounds like you are having a hard time putting up with the fact you're being rewarded based on your skill level again.

    What's with millennials and their overwhelming need to receive participation trophies larger and shinier than 1st place trophies?

    I say this as a genZ who has never stepped foot in a mythic raid while it was current content, and has always casually progressed through normal-heroic only twice a week.

  8. #328
    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    Sounds like you are having a hard time putting up with the fact you're being rewarded based on your skill level again.

    What's with millennials and their overwhelming need to receive participation trophies larger and shinier than 1st place trophies?

    I say this as a genZ who has never stepped foot in a mythic raid while it was current content, and has always casually progressed through normal-heroic only twice a week.
    Heroic raids are much, much easier than a mythic+15 and so is PvP even above 1500 so it's not about skill what so ever. Heck you even get free loot in normal raids that is just as good as the loot you get in m+30 and beyond and much more of it.
    It's just poor design and nothing else.

    It's fascinating that you belive that you can attribute certain traits to people based on when they were boarn. A little like astrology and almost as laughable.
    Also, what makes you think you know how old I am?

  9. #329
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    Heroic raids are much, much easier than a mythic+15 and so is PvP even above 1500 so it's not about skill what so ever. Heck you even get free loot in normal raids that is just as good as the loot you get in m+30 and beyond and much more of it.
    It's just poor design and nothing else.

    It's fascinating that you belive that you can attribute certain traits to people based on when they were boarn. A little like astrology and almost as laughable.
    Also, what makes you think you know how old I am?
    Your need for participation trophies (top gear) from putting in 0 to very low effort (M15, LFR-level content). This entitlement comes straight from being told you can have anything you want growing up.

    The only people who have a hard time in M15 are the people who look up IO scores hoping to fill their group up with players with 200% more score than themselves, get tired of looking for these players, then join other groups and leave after the first wipe that they themselves caused.

    Get good at the game, stop relying on being carried, join a guild and show them you're worth bringing along, and faceroll through M+. Get your free, effortless better-than-mythic gear every Tuesday. Shit can be done without voice communications. I seriously cannot wait for this to be a thing of the past in SL, and is the very reason why I'm coming back for the game.
    Last edited by Stardrift; 2020-09-25 at 07:36 PM.

  10. #330
    I feel its only natural, just like in real life a handful of boomers are addicted to slot machines.

  11. #331
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    Heroic raids are much, much easier than a mythic+15...
    M+15 is 4 man content...

  12. #332
    Quote Originally Posted by Delever View Post
    The idea is that we will be getting less loot so thats working as intended. Its less loot dropping so epics dont feel like vendor trash 90% of the time again.
    Less loot minus all of the current clownery with the extra rng effects on it.
    The idea is that everything you "hated" about TF will be worse with rare loot. If you won't drop that specific trinket for entire tier you will forget about competing with others that have it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aresk View Post
    Your first point is a good one. That math is assuming that the person gets three chances at loot from the vault. The 10.34% for the razorcoral would drop to 6.89% for two chances and 3.45% for only one chance. Those aren't great percentages, but if that one piece is still incredibly valuable, then that 10.34% would still exist to get the heroic level piece (assuming they also clear heroic, which I see no reason not to). Conversely, if the raid member was sat on that particular fight for the week, the chance of bonus rolling the piece would be 0%. But yes, I concede that for mythic raiders who don't get 10 kills and do participate in the boss kill with the targeted piece, bonus rolls are better.
    That assumption is also wrong because at some point, guilds stop doing heroics, even if individuals never got that one piece they need, especially if item is from last bosses. That is the effect of rare loot drop.
    Even if you think you need that trinket to kill mythic bosses, you really don't. But it's a waste of time doing heroic after X mythic bosses has been killed.
    Might as well put that time into progressing next boss. Regardless of that fact, it will feel awful never getting that trink/weapon etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aresk View Post
    Regarding your second point, I've only ever been talking specifically about bonus roll removal. The math is only about comparing the Vault to the bonus roll. That's what the topic of the thread is. Yes, fewer pieces of gear will drop, but that change is independent of the bonus roll change. They could have reduced gear drop and kept bonus rolls in; my question is whether that would be better than the vault. As we've discussed, I think it is when someone is full clearing. The usefulness will drop drastically as you fall short of those thresholds (with 2 mythic kills, for instance, greatly favoring coins).
    You can't be talking about bonus rolls without taking whole picture into perspective. Because lets be honest, if loot drop wasn't nerfed, removal of bonus rolls wouldn't be even remotely comparable. I would then say: fuck that nobody should care.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aresk View Post
    Yes, BLP will eventually 100% net you an item from the boss's loot table, but you have to consider how many items are on that loot table. In the instance where you only have one item on that table and it happens to be the one you want, coins are clearly superior. In the examples I looked at, the bosses that had trinkets that I knew people really shot for had 3 or 4 items on their table, so even with 100% coin chance, you still only have a 33% or 25% chance of getting the item you wanted.
    First of all as I said in previous point you need to take into consideration whole picture (nerfed loot drop).

    Quick and dirty example, everyone wanted to get a trinket from raden, because of multiple people rolling coins FOR that boss specifically and then dropping trinket allowed for super fast gearing (trading) items for people that didn't get lucky enough. Now that is gone.

    So because of rare loot drop, lack of coins, trading restrictions (last two bosses has higher ilvl) it will be a nightmare if blizzard decides to make some OP trinket from last 2 bosses. One week we managed to drop 5 trinkets from raden, now if only two drops (or gets rolled from vault) it will be lucky. I am obviously talking from perspective of entire group here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aresk View Post
    Yes, people will get less loot, but that's because of the loot drop change, not generally because the bonus roll change. Some people will not get their BiS trinkets in a tier, though that still happened in BfA (the only case of loot drama I had to suffer through was a paladin who screamed at a hunter to trade their vita-charged shard since the paladin hadn't gotten one after three months of raiding...the paladin didn't raid with us again). Whether the loot drop change is a healthy one for the game or detrimental to player enthusiasm is a whole different topic that I can't answer with math.
    That is combination of rare loot drop and removal of coins as nail to a coffin. Imagine running entire tier with garbage trinkets. Much worse feeling that getting bis but not forged version of trinket, trust me, people will flip their shit.

  13. #333
    Quote Originally Posted by iperson View Post
    M+15 is 4 man content...
    Your point being?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    Your need for participation trophies (top gear) from putting in 0 to very low effort (M15, LFR-level content). This entitlement comes straight from being told you can have anything you want growing up.

    The only people who have a hard time in M15 are the people who look up IO scores hoping to fill their group up with players with 200% more score than themselves, get tired of looking for these players, then join other groups and leave after the first wipe that they themselves caused.

    Get good at the game, stop relying on being carried, join a guild and show them you're worth bringing along, and faceroll through M+. Get your free, effortless better-than-mythic gear every Tuesday. Shit can be done without voice communications. I seriously cannot wait for this to be a thing of the past in SL, and is the very reason why I'm coming back for the game.
    What are you talking about? You are litteraly get free gear in normal and HC while mythic+ actually gets hard after a few levels.
    You make no sens what so ever.

  14. #334
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    Your point being?

    - - - Updated - - -



    What are you talking about? You are litteraly get free gear in normal and HC while mythic+ actually gets hard after a few levels.
    You make no sens what so ever.
    How in the world can you say it gets hard? LMAO

    I bet the hard part for you is getting equally bad players to accept your low IO score ass into a 15 once a week.

  15. #335
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    Your point being?

    - - - Updated - - -



    What are you talking about? You are litteraly get free gear in normal and HC while mythic+ actually gets hard after a few levels.
    You make no sens what so ever.
    Spammable 4 man instanced content should not be a loot piñata, and definitely shouldn't be the best way to gear up a character in an MMO. I for one look forward to the reduction of trade spam selling BIS gear to whales who buy tokens. Anything to reduce the RMT pay to win that BFA has become is a good change.

  16. #336
    Quote Originally Posted by Mendzia View Post
    Very good change.
    All of these small things like this one makes me closer and closer to try the game again.
    I think its going too far back and overall i do not think its a good change. Ive lived in a world where we didnt have the bonus roll and there were 2 systems in particular that made it a non issue. Valor and Reforging. One system made it so that eventually you did get some item lvl pieces and the other system made it so that there was always value from the item level piece.

    There is no Valor system(and no the weekly chest isnt even close) and trying to gear up will be even worse with the secondary stat change.

  17. #337
    Quote Originally Posted by Malix Farwin View Post
    I think its going too far back and overall i do not think its a good change. Ive lived in a world where we didnt have the bonus roll and there were 2 systems in particular that made it a non issue. Valor and Reforging. One system made it so that eventually you did get some item lvl pieces and the other system made it so that there was always value from the item level piece.

    There is no Valor system(and no the weekly chest isnt even close) and trying to gear up will be even worse with the secondary stat change.
    The highlighted is what I think what a lot of people defending this are forgetting. Even in Vanilla/Classic, there were some ways that if you grind enough you could compensate bad luck with specific items that you just go and buy without having to roll any dice. So far the only items in Shadowlands are the pvp ones that are a) too low level and b) some will be locked behind rating and as such not accessible to the vast majority of the players.

  18. #338
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    This is a good change. Don't need to spend 1500 gold on 54 gold anymore.

  19. #339
    Quote Originally Posted by iperson View Post
    Spammable 4 man instanced content should not be a loot piñata, and definitely shouldn't be the best way to gear up a character in an MMO. I for one look forward to the reduction of trade spam selling BIS gear to whales who buy tokens. Anything to reduce the RMT pay to win that BFA has become is a good change.
    How will this change anything? And why should raids be the best way?
    It just kills off PvP and M+ as a way to gear up and also as content.

    You either raid or you don't play at this point. Now, I'm in a guild that does mythic raids and I'll get my gear anyway but I also liked M+.
    All this does is make me log one or two days per week to get my free raid gear and thats it. Don't think that'll last for very long.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    How in the world can you say it gets hard? LMAO

    I bet the hard part for you is getting equally bad players to accept your low IO score ass into a 15 once a week.
    Talking like someone who never did more than a +5.
    Not sure what the excessive personal insults and childish behavior is supposed to accomplish though. It's a tad pathetic.
    Grow up.

  20. #340
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    How will this change anything? And why should raids be the best way?
    It just kills off PvP and M+ as a way to gear up and also as content.

    You either raid or you don't play at this point. Now, I'm in a guild that does mythic raids and I'll get my gear anyway but I also liked M+.
    All this does is make me log one or two days per week to get my free raid gear and thats it. Don't think that'll last for very long.
    I thought you liked M+...

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