Bonus rolls are removed in Shadowlands

[Lochton]

Removing bonus rolls doesn't fix RNG. It actually makes it far worse. The fact that people don't realize this is making me question the intelligence of most people that play WoW.

I didn't say fix, and many say less RNG. The bonus roll is just another RNG roll.

[sensei-]

Removing bonus rolls doesn't fix RNG. It actually makes it far worse. The fact that people don't realize this is making me question the intelligence of most people that play WoW.

Spot on. The average intelligence of a gamer isn’t very high. Gamers don’t like to learn anything difficult, or work hard for anything worthwhile, but what they do like to do is whine endlessly. Even about concepts their tiny brain power can’t comprehend or process.

[vashe9]

less rng in things that matter in the long run. gear is going to be the never ending upgrade. mounts/pets/toys/etc all those things less rng = better sure. having the "rng" be in the weekly chest vs being coined rolls just makes it so people have to consistently do more content every week in order to possibly get what they need vs just buying the coins and coining during raids/15s. it shouldnt be an either or system. it should be both. because there just straight up are the people who are unlucky and will consistently not get the items they need to progress. having those extra chances helps them.

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having a chance to get a item > than not having a chance to get it. thats just quick math facts. 2+2=4-1=3 quick maffs.

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100% hurts the new content, which is shadowlands. say for instance you want to have 100% mog of whatever you can use, leather for instance. not having those rolls hurts you.

Who the hell cares about transmogs of new sets (they're ugly compared to legacy sets), they're not even tied to classes...

Definitely just a detail. For serious players, the bonus roll was only used for relevant BiS loot.

There was no bonus loot prior to MOP and it worked better than current loot system.

[crusadernero]

Good. There needs to be less RNG and when loot drops it should matter. Last couple of years we been showered with epics and most of them are forgotten about in a heartbeat.

[Nuciek]

less rng in things that matter in the long run. gear is going to be the never ending upgrade. mounts/pets/toys/etc all those things less rng = better sure. having the "rng" be in the weekly chest vs being coined rolls just makes it so people have to consistently do more content every week in order to possibly get what they need vs just buying the coins and coining during raids/15s. it shouldnt be an either or system. it should be both. because there just straight up are the people who are unlucky and will consistently not get the items they need to progress. having those extra chances helps them.

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having a chance to get a item > than not having a chance to get it. thats just quick math facts. 2+2=4-1=3 quick maffs.

But it isn't your math. You see, there will always be unlucky people, but you also forgot that there are lucky people out there. Implementing two luck based systems increases the gap even more. If you had the weekly chest and bonus rolls some people would still not get upgrade, while others would get upgrades from both, leaving those unlucky at EVEN BIGGER disadvantage. So removing luck based systems (bonus rolls) is actually in favor of those unlucky. Can you see this? Why would unlucky people want a system that's based around the luck that they DON'T HAVE?

Weekly chest is actually better for them because they will always get one item, big or small upgrade - always an upgrade. With coins you could get AP all expansion long if you were really unlucky, while others got their BiS items in first weeks. With this sytem they might get BiS from chest but that's one item, not extra item that you had luck to get from bonus roll. Just one. Everyone gets one. Also understand that the gear progression is slowing down, Blizzard wants everyone to gear up slower in general, get less items but have the loot be more meaningful.

[TheRevenantHero]

I didn't say fix, and many say less RNG. The bonus roll is just another RNG roll.

Once again, getting rid of bonus rolls makes RNG WORSE. Bonus rolls were a form of bad luck prevention. You had TWO CHANCES to get loot from a specific boss. Which means it reduces RNG because you've increased your odds. Saying bonus roll removal is a good thing is like saying buying only one lottery card as opposed to 10 will somehow make your chances better. Everyone saying bonus roll removal is a good thing absolutely has no fucking idea how statistics work.

[VinceVega]

Going against the grain here: Everyone will be worse off because of this.
Being able to target high impact loot facilitated power gain and distribution on subsequent runs.
Throughput will suffer and guilds will take longer on progression walls.

Well yeah. That is exactly the intention.
Because this time around if you get a max level piece fromyour weekly chest or mythic it is done most of the time. There is no better piece after that.
We did not have that since cata i think?
So they reduce overall gear. If they remove TF and bonus rolls but keep the flood of items from BfA.... that would be incredibly boring. Finsihed gearing i record time

[vashe9]

But it isn't your math. You see, there will always be unlucky people, but you also forgot that there are lucky people out there. Implementing two luck based systems increases the gap even more. If you had the weekly chest and bonus rolls some people would still not get upgrade, while others would get upgrades from both, leaving those unlucky at EVEN BIGGER disadvantage. So removing luck based systems (bonus rolls) is actually in favor of those unlucky. Can you see this? Why would unlucky people want a system that's based around the luck that they DON'T HAVE?

Weekly chest is actually better for them because they will always get one item, big or small upgrade - always an upgrade. With coins you could get AP all expansion long if you were really unlucky, while others got their BiS items in first weeks. With this sytem they might get BiS from chest but that's one item, not extra item that you had luck to get from bonus roll. Just one. Everyone gets one. Also understand that the gear progression is slowing down, Blizzard wants everyone to gear up slower in general, get less items but have the loot be more meaningful.

Someone in my guild got BiS loot on almost all bosses (it was a tank alt) via bonus loots (sometimes 1 via normal loot et 1 via bonus loot) in a single run... If you're lucky, you're double lucky yep that's true. And some people like me were just "double unlucky" (14 kills AND 14 bonus rolls to get the bow in EP - 13 useless bonus rolls)

[VinceVega]

Someone in my guild got BiS loot on almost all bosses (it was a tank alt) via bonus loots (sometimes 1 via normal loot et 1 via bonus loot) in a single run... If you're lucky, you're double lucky yep that's true. And some people like me were just "double unlucky" (14 kills AND 14 bonus rolls to get the bow in EP - 13 useless bonus rolls)

That is the game. If you are that unlucky it won't change anything.
Only way would be guaranteed BiS loot on first kill.

But then again why have gear anyway? People throw areound RNG like it is cancer. RNG in loot is a good thing. Otherwise the game would be incredibly stale.

I did not get my trinket in Palace at all. Bonus rolled every week. Bad luck. That is it. Not even anyone else got it after their first one so i couldn't ven trade it.
But i still rather go through that again. Than have that shitty bonus roll system back.

Loot be Loot. You get it the olf fashioned way by killing stuff and in top the imprved loot box every week. Which gives you so much choice it is nearly impossible that there is nothing you need.

[Tarba]

Withdrawing bonus roll actually add RNG. How come people don't see something as simple as that?
Bonus roll were targeted rolls on a specific encounter.

[Cyram]

I... kinda didn't care for the roll system, especially when you had to buy coins for gold on your alts because you didn't have whatever resource you needed for them.
And if we're changing 2 20% weekly rolls for 1 100% weekly loot drop... I'm fine with it. Now I'll get to slowly but surely gear alts as well, with that weekly chest.
... this thread backfired a bit on the OP, didn't it?

[thilicen]

well. Shadowlands starting to look like straight dumpster fire now. https://www.wowhead.com/news=318109/...wlands-content

So I don't get to spend a ton of gold or other resources to fail a bonus roll every week anymore?
Oh fucking no. Be more of a drama queen would you?

[TheRevenantHero]

So I don't get to spend a ton of gold or other resources to fail a bonus roll every week anymore?
Oh fucking no. Be more of a drama queen would you?

Yeah, instead you lose bad luck prevention, increasing the chance of you getting absolutely nothing from a raid. I don't see how you don't realize that removal of bonus rolls makes RNG WORSE.

[Nuciek]

Once again, getting rid of bonus rolls makes RNG WORSE. Bonus rolls were a form of bad luck prevention. You had TWO CHANCES to get loot from a specific boss. Which means it reduces RNG because you've increased your odds. Saying bonus roll removal is a good thing is like saying buying only one lottery card as opposed to 10 will somehow make your chances better. Everyone saying bonus roll removal is a good thing absolutely has no fucking idea how statistics work.

You try to sound smart, but that's not an argument. Ever considered that you might be wrong? If you think you're right - elaborate.

But before you do - I will, so you have something to argument against.
What if I told you that bonus roll is not bad luck protection? Let's start off with a fact that our gear and our progress is only relevant in comparison to other players progress. That's a fact, we care about items because others have them, we judge our gear based on what others have. Of course without any kind of progress it would be boring, but the speed at which we feel like we are progressing is measured by others. We take our gear into raids, dungeons, arenas etc. and we compare ourselves against others. You don't feel bad about your gear if your guildmates have the same level of gear, you feel bad about it if you see that everyone else is getting items and you don't.

Now I want to present a simplified example - let's say we have 4 players in a raid and they have just killed the boss.
After boss kill:
Player A gets an item.
Player B gets an item.
Player C doesn't get anything.
Player D doesn't get anything.

Players A and B have 1 item each, players C and D have no items. Difference between min and max is 1 item.
They all decide to bonus roll.

Player A gets an item.
Player B doesn't get anything.
Player C gets an item.
Player D doesn't get anything.

Player A has 2 items, players B and C have 1 item each, player D doesn't have any item. Difference between min and max is 2 items.

Now looking at it and judging the outcome we can see that player A got an item, which is cool for him but we see that he get's an advantage that's not really fair n my book (gold for coin changed into an item, no extra effort on his part). Player B got an item from boss but he's actually behind the top player because of the bonus roll. Player C was lucky enough to get item from bonus roll, which might sound good, but in the end he is also behind the top players. He is still 1 item behind player A and only gained advantage over player D. And player D of course that was so unlucky that he didn't get any items and because of bonus roll he is now in even worse situation, being 2 items behind the player A, and he still is 1 item behind two players.

My thoughts? For most of players the bonus roll doesn't matter, if we remove the bonus roll they will progress slower but at the same pace than most other players. They will loose advantage over those really unlucky but also loose disadvantage against those really lucky. For lucky players it's fun, but it's not fair, and for those unlucky it's not fair and not fun, and doesn't really help them, it makes the gap in gear even bigger. Bonus roll is not a bad luck protection because it is system based on LUCK. Currency like titan residuum was bad luck protection, bonus roll is not.

Of course you mentioned statistics. If you're so good with them you should know that if everyone has bonus roll it's not any kind of advantage for anyone because, well... everyone has it. I would agree that thanks to more chances everyone ends up in BiS gear at the end, but the important part here is "at the end". If you're unlucky you don't care that you got your BiS items 3 months into patch when everything is done and next tier is in a week. Statistics would say luck evens out and that at the end of a tier everyone had the same gear, but gear progress matters in first weeks/months.

[TheRevenantHero]

You try to sound smart, but that's not an argument. Ever considered that you might be wrong? If you think you're right - elaborate.

But before you do - I will, so you have something to argument against.
What if I told you that bonus roll is not bad luck protection? Let's start off with a fact that our gear and our progress is only relevant in comparison to other players progress. That's a fact, we care about items because others have them, we judge our gear based on what others have. Of course without any kind of progress it would be boring, but the speed at which we feel like we are progressing is measured by others. We take our gear into raids, dungeons, arenas etc. and we compare ourselves against others. You don't feel bad about your gear if your guildmates have the same level of gear, you feel bad about it if you see that everyone else is getting items and you don't.

Now I want to present a simplified example - let's say we have 4 players in a raid and they have just killed the boss.
After boss kill:
Player A gets an item.
Player B gets an item.
Player C doesn't get anything.
Player D doesn't get anything.

Players A and B have 1 item each, players C and D have no items. Difference between min and max is 1 item.
They all decide to bonus roll.

Player A gets an item.
Player B doesn't get anything.
Player C gets an item.
Player D doesn't get anything.

Player A have 2 items, players B and C have 1 item each, player D doesn't have any item. Difference between min and max is 2 items.

Now looking at it and judging the outcome we can see that player A got an item, which is cool for him but we see that he get's an advantage that's not really fair n my book (gold for coin changed into an item, no extra effort on his part). Player B got an item from boss but he's actually behind the top player because of the bonus roll. Player C was lucky enough to get item from bonus roll, which might sound good, but in the end he is also behind the top players. He is still 1 item behind player A and only gained advantage over player D. And player D of course that was so unlucky that he didn't get any items and because of bonus roll he is now in even worse situation, being 2 items behind the player A, and he still is 1 item behind two players.

My thoughts? For most of players the bonus roll doesn't matter, if we remove the bonus roll they will progress slower but at the same pace than most other players. They will loose advantage over those really unlucky but also loose disadvantage against those really lucky. For lucky players it's fun, but it's not fair, and for those unlucky it's not fair and not fun, and doesn't really help them, it makes the gap in gear even bigger. Bonus roll is not a bad luck protection because it is system based on LUCK. Currency like titan residuum was bad luck protection, bonus roll is not.

Of course you mentioned statistics. If you're so good with them you should know that if everyone has bonus roll it's not any kind of advantage for anyone because, well... everyone has it. I would agree that thanks to more chances everyone ends up in BiS gear at the end, but the important part here is "at the end". If you're unlucky you don't care that you got your BiS items 3 months into patch when everything is done and next tier is in a week. Statistics would say luck evens out and that at the end of a tier everyone had the same gear, but gear progress matters in first weeks/months.

Let's say a boss has a loot pool of 24 items and 6 items drop each time it's killed the first time in a week. Of the 24 items, only three of those items benefit your class. Odds are pretty slim that one of the items will benefit you. BUT with bonus rolls, drastically increase your chances of getting one of those items because it was if you had killed the boss TWICE that week. So to say it isn't a form of bad luck prevention is utterly ignorant. Titan residuum wasn't bad luck prevention. Saying it is would be like saying vendors are the inn are bad luck prevention against food dropping from adds.

The examples you gave is basically just a form of entitlement in the community. People have been luckier for me so therefore I'm going to cry and until Blizzard does something that lowers their luck. By removing bonus rolls, you are drastically lowering people's chances at getting an item which means player D in your example is even worse off now.

So no. I didn't consider I was wrong purely because I'm not wrong. Having extra chances to win something statistically increases your chance of actually winning. Which is why it's a form of bad luck prevention. Lucky players still have an advantage over unlucky players if bonus rolls are removed. Except now unlucky players have lost a form of bad luck prevention so they're going to be worse off for much longer.

[Krothar]

I will not miss bonus rolling into Azerite Power/Whatever is the grind that expansion.

[Specialka]

I will not miss bonus rolling into Azerite Power/Whatever is the grind that expansion.

I do agree with you. I disliked how I was showered with loot. And we will have the weekly chest where we will be able to target which loot we want.

On a side note: Indivisible ! Great game though a bit short.

[lockybalboa]

This. I've gone entire raids with 5/5 bonus rolls and not getting a single upgrade, but now we get a weekly chest with selectable options. It lowers, like so many said before me, the RNG factor when it comes to loot. Yes, you will not get that 'lucky week' where you get like 3 BiS, but when you do get that one BiS, it will feel great.

Oh you get to target your loot for the weekly chest? So that's still not too bad.

[Nuciek]

Let's say a boss has a loot pool of 24 items and 6 items drop each time it's killed the first time in a week. Of the 24 items, only three of those items benefit your class. Odds are pretty slim that one of the items will benefit you. BUT with bonus rolls, drastically increase your chances of getting one of those items because it was if you had killed the boss TWICE that week. So to say it isn't a form of bad luck prevention is utterly ignorant. Titan residuum wasn't bad luck prevention. Saying it is would be like saying vendors are the inn are bad luck prevention against food dropping from adds.

The examples you gave is basically just a form of entitlement in the community. People have been luckier for me so therefore I'm going to cry and until Blizzard does something that lowers their luck. By removing bonus rolls, you are drastically lowering people's chances at getting an item which means player D in your example is even worse off now.

So no. I didn't consider I was wrong purely because I'm not wrong. Having extra chances to win something statistically increases your chance of actually winning. Which is why it's a form of bad luck prevention. Lucky players still have an advantage over unlucky players if bonus rolls are removed. Except now unlucky players have lost a form of bad luck prevention so they're going to be worse off for much longer.

How can you say titan residuum is not a bad luck protection? That's almost perfect example and it was very good implementation of it. It was even introduced as a bad luck protection for those that didn't had the luck to get their Azerite traits from drops. You got the item, it was good? Cool. No? You scrapped it for titan residuum and after scrapping several pieces you could buy another piece. Those that had luck in drops had advantage but you still had something extra that helped you catch-up to them.

Actually bonus roll is not a bad luck protection because if you had bad luck on both, drop and roll you are TWICE as fast outgeared by those that had this luck. You can't have a bad luck protection with something that is purely luck too. As I said, I know that after 3 months luck will even out and everyone will have the same gear but the gap between lucky and unlucky people during first month or two is bigger with bonus roll than it is without it. It's simple, use statistics to calculate that if you understand then so good.

It's also funny that you mention entitlement because I think you are the one being egoistic and feeling some kind of entitlement. I'm looking at it from game design perspective and how it affects everyone. The bad luck protection by design is a system that helps even out the playing field of those that have luck and those that don't and we discuss if a system is or is not a bad luck protection, yet you claim that those that don't have luck feel entitled suddenly?

Unlucky players won't be worse, because they didn't had luck in the first place and system that uses luck won't help them.
It's like you would go down the road in a red shirt and there's a stand and they give free candies but only to people in blue shirts. So you didn't get a candy, but they tell you there's another stand just 100m further. So you go there and they give away candies but to everyone not in red shirt, so you still have no candy, and your friend with blue shirt has two candies now. So it doesn't matter that there are two stand if you have red shirt. It doesn't matter that you have another chance based on luck if you have no luck.

[TheRevenantHero]

How can you say titan residuum is not a bad luck protection? That's almost perfect example and it was very good implementation of it. It was even introduced as a bad luck protection for those that didn't had the luck to get their Azerite traits from drops. You got the item, it was good? Cool. No? You scrapped it for titan residuum and after scrapping several pieces you could buy another piece. Those that had luck in drops had advantage but you still had something extra that helped you catch-up to them.

Actually bonus roll is not a bad luck protection because if you had bad luck on both, drop and roll you are TWICE as fast outgeared by those that had this luck. You can't have a bad luck protection with something that is purely luck too. As I said, I know that after 3 months luck will even out and everyone will have the same gear but the gap between lucky and unlucky people during first month or two is bigger with bonus roll than it is without it. It's simple, use statistics to calculate that if you understand then so good.

It's also funny that you mention entitlement because I think you are the one being egoistic and feeling some kind of entitlement. I'm looking at it from game design perspective and how it affects everyone. The bad luck protection by design is a system that helps even out the playing field of those that have luck and those that don't and we discuss if a system is or is not a bad luck protection, yet you claim that those that don't have luck feel entitled suddenly?

Unlucky players won't be worse, because they didn't had luck in the first place and system that uses luck won't help them.
It's like you would go down the road in a red shirt and there's a stand and they give free candies but only to people in blue shirts. So you didn't get a candy, but they tell you there's another stand just 100m further. So you go there and they give away candies but to everyone not in red shirt, so you still have no candy, and your friend with blue shirt has two candies now. So it doesn't matter that there are two stand if you have red shirt. It doesn't matter that you have another chance based on luck if you have no luck.

So something isn't bad luck prevention unless it guarantees you get something? That's asinine. It's bad luck prevention because it increases your odds. That's how that works. The titan residuum vendor was just that... a vendor. Calling it bad luck prevention is ridiculous because even the vendor had RNG.

And if you're looking at it from a game design perspective and thinking the removal actually helps people, then please don't get a job as a game designer. Reducing a player's chances of getting a piece of gear means they are going to be shit out of luck for far longer. The bonus rolls drastically increased their chances even if it didn't 100% guarantee a piece of gear. Literally nobody benefits from its removal. It will only make things a lot worse.