Blizzard on Loot from Raids, Mythic+ and PvP in Shadowlands, Bonus Rolls Removed

[Jastall]

+14 dungeons shouldn't even be able to give 226. Even if it's only one item per week it is still one item too much. The cap should be increased to +20.

Lol, that's nonsense. Especially early in the tier, +20 is very difficult and done by fewer people than the early Mythic bosses (discounting how most doing these raid Mythic anyway). People are deceived by how easy Corruptions made M+ in BFA S4. In Shadowlands only the elites will do +15s weeks 1 most likely- and those same people will go off to get better gear from Mythic the second it releases anyway.

It's one item. Per week. Even assuming completely ideal drops it'll take someone 14-15 weeks to gear up to 226 via the chest, discounting the 1 legendary. Competing with raid items from the same cache. In reality it'll take closer to 25-ish weeks for most, and believe you me Mythic raiders will get much better gear (literally if they kill bosses 9 and 10) much faster than that. People who do dungeons are allowed to have nice things, for fuck's sake.

[Mystikal]

As has been observed in the Beta, loot quantities overall are reduced in Shadowlands. Following the proclamation “let loot be loot”, we’re entering into a world without Warforging and Titanforging, where getting an item from relevant content should feel rewarding on its own more often, without needing to hope for random upgrades.

Here is your proof. Look at this Bluepost. They are talking about the Shadowlands in general. "LOOT QUANTITIES OVERALL ARE REDUCED IN SHADOWLANDS". This applies to all content.

Your guildies are only going to get faster gear if they spend more overall time playing the game than you and that is fair. +15 will be harder in the early expac but so will heroic bosses. Again you're assuming that people who find +15 keys hard will be able to faceroll the heroic raid in 3 hours in the first weeks?

And again, you are being way too dramatic. Even if you just do +10 keys you will still get 204 gear at the end of dungeons (1 piece every five dungeons) and 220 gear from the weekly chest. So when you're saying that you're going to be FAR behind your guildies doing heroic raiding then it is just completely disingenuous. And if your guildies are using more time overall playing the game then it is of course completely fair that they'll get more gear.

Your main argument is that you'll have to invest much more time than your guildies to get the same gear. But that is not true. That is just you creating drama. Loot is going to be scarce in SL in general and that's it. You can see that in the Bluepost and Ion has also said it in his interviews with Slooth etc. No one is going to get loot really fast unless they play the game A LOT.

You haven't addressed any of my points, other than the loot scarcity issue (thanks for the blue post).

How is 10x30 minutes not longer than 3 hours (180 minutes)? This is basic maths. They are not playing the game more than me, I am playing far more than them and coming out with less (yes, I might get 1 more piece, but it is of vastly reduced quality). At the moment, as I said, 3-6 runs a week is enough to keep the gap to a respectable minimum. Yes, I could knock it down to 4 dungeons for only 2 items at the end of the week in the vault, but that then comes with the very real chance of getting nothing from the clears themselves, and, in future weeks of the vault, getting duplicates with my very limited choices. If I drop to 4 M+ dungeons a week, then I am spending a bit less time in that activity, but I won't be able to compare with someone getting 10 chances at loot over a 3 hour period. I say again: I am not against harder content rewarding better gear, but the famine element is going a bit too far. Remember, World Quests and Callings will not reward gear, which were a vital source of "keeping up" in Legion & BfA. A huge chunk of the alternate paths are gone, and the few that remain are diminished.

[Bats]

If the top ilvl PvP gear is at 2400+ this is going to be yet another joke of an expansion PvP wise. How can you compare doing a M15+ run to consistently staying above 2400 for gear? What sort of brain dead designer thinks that these two are comparable in difficulty? Being at gladiator rating consistently is more difficult than Mythic raiding as well considering that eventually you clear raids and they go on farm. You can't farm anyone at 2400+ rating unless you're in some broken comp or playing a broken class.

Fuck sake I can't believe they're fucking this up again. Why can't they just go back to the old gearing which everyone enjoyed during the peak of WoW. Why do they keep trying to reinvent everything recently.

[munkeyinorbit]

And those of us who dont do pvp or the stupid mythic plus dungons are basically screwed now. Got it we casual dont matter.

How? If you kill 5 bosses the chance of getting a piece of loot is 1. In bfa the chance of getting loot with 5 bonus rolls is < 1. It is a buff.

[Argorwal]

For what it’s worth it’s 1 drop base and 1 additional drop for timing a key. Not 1 item total.

[munkeyinorbit]

There's no way this change could turn out badly in present-day WoW! Getting bad RNG for the first four weeks of raiding and M+ totally won't cause you to be passed over for groups later on, thus falling further and further behind. No, there's no way this decision could go wrong.

How is bad rng going to affect it in the first 4 weeks? If you get no loot in raid the likely hood of the chest giving you 4 pieces that are an upgrade is high. If you get lucky then the chest may not offer as many upgrades. Everyone is in the same boat. What is going wrong is people not thinking.

[Redroniksre]

Man i love the argument flying around here that if you don't -need- the gear then why should you get it? People in favor of that, would you also be in favor of removing Mythic gear all together, given that you don't -need- it to clear Mythic? You only need Heroic gear after all, so why should you get the best gear when you don't actually have to? Or is it just the old school dinosaur mentality of "Them casuals are getting my gears! How dare they not get to my superb level?"

[Railander]

Yes, and those alts are usually high rated as well /facepalm

If you ever want to get better, you have to play vs better players...

actually, a lot of times those alts are between 2k and 2.4k, especially this xpac since it required crazy hours of farming just to reach parity on all the bs progression systems.

and im not looking to get better (i got glad back in s12 btw, in case you're thinking of me as some scrub), im just looking to get easy gear.
if you're playing for gear, pvp is definitely not the way of doing it. i could have tons of effort to get to 2.4k to get the best ilvl gear... or i could do some easy +15 once a week for less than 1 hour of my time and dedication. i think it's a no-brainer which one anyone would ever want to do.

what they should actually do is see how much of the player base can do +15's, and then see how much percentile of that is equivalent in arena rating, and set that as the threshold for the top ilvl gear from pvp, it'd be the now roughly the same difficulty to get as m+ gear.
i'd bet something like 1.9k is the equivalent in difficulty of +15.

[Subrias]

Not to mention Blizzard's poor communication in their post. Their blue post makes it sound as though, if you clear a +15 Mythic Dungeon, you get 3 choices of 226 gear at reset. You don't. You have to clear 10 +15s in order for that to happen. +15 will be out of reach for many, many players in the first few weeks and months. Once you can finally clear them, only then does your gearing begin, and you will be faced with months of having to do a dozen or more M+ keys every week. It will be exhausting.

this is actually factually untrue... only the 1st, 4th, and 10th dungeon have to be a 15, you can do 1's in between if you wanted.

[munkeyinorbit]

My thoughts exactly. As soon as you're against this change, people just start inanely spouting "you want mythic raid gear levelled to you in the mail as soon as you max level!". No, I don't. Unfortunately, in SL, if you do not raid, then you MUST spam M+ forever to have any chance of getting gear, at a vastly reduced drop rate and reduced ilvl.

I'm amazed that Blizzard hasn't yet removed the Timewalking event quests, they certainly fly in the face of Blizzard's current mantra towards gearing.

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Right, now let's analyse this further. Those items will be of heroic quality. Without my guild, I will not be clearing +15 at the start of the expac, as that is not an attainable goal for many M+ PuGs. As such, the item that I get in my Weekly Vault will be of vastly lower quality. After only a few weeks of that, the discrepancy will, in fact, be so bad that I am a burden to my guild. Especially given the fact that I could do my M+ runs for the week, get nothing thanks to the massively reduced drop rate, and have no other means of increasing my ilvl that week (if I can't join my guild for their raid).

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I keep saying this, but others seem to think that if you run M+ you're going to be showered in gear, despite it only dropping one item per dungeon. Realistically, there will be a lot of people who clear their dungeons and get nothing, and then get ONE item in the chest. After only a few resets, anyone who is raiding will be far ahead in terms of gear. I know that, at some point, my guild will have to stop letting me come along as I can't make the raid every week, and I have no way in SL of keeping the ilvl gap to a manageable (i.e. I can overcome the deficit with skill) difference.

Talk about spreading a lot of misinformation. Your qualifiers for your "arguments" are nonsense.

If you don't run the 15s of course you will have lesser gear. You choose that not blizzard.

If you don't run the raid why do you think you deserve the gear? Of course you will behind. That's your choice not Blizzards.

Compared to heroic raiding you WILL be showered in gear. It is easier content that is repeatable. There is the exact same chance of heroic gear. I stead of comparing apples and oranges let's get this right. You raid and m+ with a guild. Same opportunity for loot and same opportunity for people giving you loot. Easier content for m+ as well as being able to stack your amor easier. The drops are the same except you can run them as much as you want with a guaranteed bonus piece that is higher ilvl. Heroic raiding is limited to once a week and no ilvl boost.

So if we take away your lies we see that you are wrong.

[Subrias]

This is what I've repeatedly being saying that I want to do, but am now being told that I can't. I would never allow myself to be carried by my friends, but keeping up a decent enough gear level to join them will not be possible if these changes stay as is.

There is honestly some wiggle room in these changes that would allow me to carry on playing as I have done for the last several years. I also want to see my character become more powerful over time and totally agree that that should be slower if I can't raid, but these changes will also make that into a never-ending treadmill because of the scarcity of gear outside of raiding.

allow yourself to be carried by your friends? lol get over yourself. friends dont give a fuck what your gear is you play with them for fun. if you arent playing with them for fun, get new friends.

[TheRevenantHero]

It hurts no one. If you even kill one boss you are guaranteed loot. That's more than what it was before. You could roll 5 times and kill all bosses and get no loot. There. It's improved for everyone.

If a casual doesn't kill a raid boss then why do they deserve gear? This is just word salad dressed up as an argument.

If you can't see how it hurts everyone then I don't know what to tell you. A hardcore raider is going to be killing bosses every single week and have a chance of not getting a single piece of gear. A casual is going to be killing bosses via LFR and now their chances of getting gear is even lower than it was before. Both hardcore raiders and casual players are hurt by this because their chances of getting gear have just been drastically reduced.

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So Blizzard is catering to your needs by removing rng and giving you a loot option for when you actually do raid. Yeah. Fuck blizzard and giving casual players exactly what they need, not what some YouTuber says you need.

I don't even know how to properly address most of the things you've said simply because you haven't made much sense. Blizzard isn't REMOVING RNG. They're making the RNG worse by removing a form of bad luck prevention. It hurts actual hardcore raiders too because the bonus rolls gave them a second chance on a specific boss to get the item they needed. All removing bonus rolls does is force players into grinding the content more often. That's not good game design.

[munkeyinorbit]

If you can't see how it hurts everyone then I don't know what to tell you. A hardcore raider is going to be killing bosses every single week and have a chance of not getting a single piece of gear. A casual is going to be killing bosses via LFR and now their chances of getting gear is even lower than it was before. Both hardcore raiders and casual players are hurt by this because their chances of getting gear have just been drastically reduced.

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I don't even know how to properly address most of the things you've said simply because you haven't made much sense. Blizzard isn't REMOVING RNG. They're making the RNG worse by removing a form of bad luck prevention. It hurts actual hardcore raiders too because the bonus rolls gave them a second chance on a specific boss to get the item they needed. All removing bonus rolls does is force players into grinding the content more often. That's not good game design.

That's where your wrong. It is very simple. Every week you are guaranteed loot if you kill only one boss. This has never happened for raiding before outside of quests. This is called a buff. Cry all you want but the chances of getting the one item you want also stay effectively the same. 51 out of 1000 people will get exactly the one item in SL. In BfA that was 52 out of 1000 for the base item. No one is losing out except for that 1 guy and statistically speaking, no one is that 1 guy.

[Swnem]

Is it me, or do they sound bitter at "let loot be loot?".

I swear this dev team can be so arrogant...

Anyways, sounds better than what we had.

[TheRevenantHero]

That's where your wrong. It is very simple. Every week you are guaranteed loot if you kill only one boss. This has never happened for raiding before outside of quests. This is called a buff. Cry all you want but the chances of getting the one item you want also stay effectively the same. 51 out of 1000 people will get exactly the one item in SL. In BfA that was 52 out of 1000 for the base item. No one is losing out except for that 1 guy and statistically speaking, no one is that 1 guy.

No you are NOT guaranteed loot. I don't know where the fuck you're getting that information. Without bonus loot, you are far more likely to get absolutely NOTHING from a raid each week or getting a piece of gear from a boss you didn't need anything from. Bonus rolls let you target a boss' loot pool. You literally have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

[Bats]

actually, a lot of times those alts are between 2k and 2.4k, especially this xpac since it required crazy hours of farming just to reach parity on all the bs progression systems.

and im not looking to get better (i got glad back in s12 btw, in case you're thinking of me as some scrub), im just looking to get easy gear.
if you're playing for gear, pvp is definitely not the way of doing it. i could have tons of effort to get to 2.4k to get the best ilvl gear... or i could do some easy +15 once a week for less than 1 hour of my time and dedication. i think it's a no-brainer which one anyone would ever want to do.

what they should actually do is see how much of the player base can do +15's, and then see how much percentile of that is equivalent in arena rating, and set that as the threshold for the top ilvl gear from pvp, it'd be the now roughly the same difficulty to get as m+ gear.
i'd bet something like 1.9k is the equivalent in difficulty of +15.

Totally agree, I don't understand how they can compare staying at 2400+ consistently to running +15. Even Mythic raids, at the start they're difficult because you haven't done the raid and your gear isn't great, but once you clear the raid a few times it goes on farm unlike arena.

I'd be happy with something at around 1.8-2k rating for the best gear. Otherwise this expansion is again going to be a joke for anyone who wants to PvP.

[Kaver]

No you are NOT guaranteed loot. I don't know where the fuck you're getting that information. Without bonus loot, you are far more likely to get absolutely NOTHING from a raid each week or getting a piece of gear from a boss you didn't need anything from. Bonus rolls let you target a boss' loot pool. You literally have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

He is talking about the weekly chest which now also will be impacted by raiding. So if you just kill one raid boss and nothing else you will as minimum get 1 piece of loot every week (the one from the weekly chest).

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You haven't addressed any of my points, other than the loot scarcity issue (thanks for the blue post).

How is 10x30 minutes not longer than 3 hours (180 minutes)? This is basic maths. They are not playing the game more than me, I am playing far more than them and coming out with less (yes, I might get 1 more piece, but it is of vastly reduced quality). At the moment, as I said, 3-6 runs a week is enough to keep the gap to a respectable minimum. Yes, I could knock it down to 4 dungeons for only 2 items at the end of the week in the vault, but that then comes with the very real chance of getting nothing from the clears themselves, and, in future weeks of the vault, getting duplicates with my very limited choices. If I drop to 4 M+ dungeons a week, then I am spending a bit less time in that activity, but I won't be able to compare with someone getting 10 chances at loot over a 3 hour period. I say again: I am not against harder content rewarding better gear, but the famine element is going a bit too far. Remember, World Quests and Callings will not reward gear, which were a vital source of "keeping up" in Legion & BfA. A huge chunk of the alternate paths are gone, and the few that remain are diminished.

First of all, I’m tired of you saying “10 chances of loot per raid” and implying that raiders are going to be showered in gear when we just made it clear that loot will be scarce ALSO in raids. People will max get 2 pieces of loot over the entire raid. Your argument is not very good if you keep having to twist the truth to fit your agenda.

Secondly you are describing your guild as players who are able to faceroll the heroic raid in 3 hours the first week? If they can do that then you should also be able to faceroll +15 keys. Otherwise you are beneath their level.

Thirdly, yes 10 dungeons might take a bit more time to do than to clear the raid if we are assuming that they can do it in 3 hours (They most likely spend more than 3 hours in the beginning). But you will also get a better weekly item than them. And the weekly item will be the primary source of gearing like Blizzard said.

You also said that your item will be of “vastly reduced quality” which is also exaggerated. If you do +10s you’ll get 204 gear and +15s 210. Neither of this is vastly reduced quality compared to the 213 ilvl you get from heroic. If your goal is to be able to jump in and raid with your when you have time (which you stated in the beginning that it was) then you’ll be completely fine. You’re maybe going to be a few ilvls behind overall but that is not going to be a problem at all.

I do get your point but it is based on twisted assumptions. Overall you will be able to be very decently geared just by doing dungeons and you will definitely be able to raid with your friends. Saying that you’re not is just being overdramatic. Of course you will limit yourself a bit if all you do is 4 dungeons per week but don’t assume that the raiders will get many pieces of loot by clearing the raid. Because they wont. Loot will be more scarce and that is how Blizzard design Shadowlands. Getting 1-2 pieces of useful loot every week will probably be the norm. You have nothing to worry about.

[TheRevenantHero]

He is talking about the weekly chest which now also will be impacted by raiding. So if you just kill one raid boss and nothing else you will as minimum get 1 piece of loot every week (the one from the weekly chest).

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First of all, I’m tired of you saying “10 chances of loot per raid” and implying that raiders are going to be showered in gear when we just made it clear that loot will be scarce ALSO in raids. People will max get 2 pieces of loot over the entire raid. Your argument is not very good if you keep having to twist the truth to fit your agenda.

Secondly you are describing your guild as players who are able to faceroll the heroic raid in 3 hours the first week? If they can do that then you should also be able to faceroll +15 keys. Otherwise you are beneath their level.

Thirdly, yes 10 dungeons might take a bit more time to do than to clear the raid if we are assuming that they can do it in 3 hours (They most likely spend more than 3 hours in the beginning). But you will also get a better weekly item than them. And the weekly item will be the primary source of gearing like Blizzard said.

You also said that your item will be of “vastly reduced quality” which is also exaggerated. If you do +10s you’ll get 204 gear and +15s 210. Neither of this is vastly reduced quality compared to the 213 ilvl you get from heroic. If your goal is to be able to jump in and raid with your when you have time (which you stated in the beginning that it was) then you’ll be completely fine. You’re maybe going to be a few ilvls behind overall but that is not going to be a problem at all.

I do get your point but it is based on twisted assumptions. Overall you will be able to be very decently geared just by doing dungeons and you will definitely be able to raid with your friends. Saying that you’re not is just being overdramatic. Of course you will limit yourself a bit if all you do is 4 dungeons per week but don’t assume that the raiders will get many pieces of loot by clearing the raid. Because they wont. Loot will be more scarce and that is how Blizzard design Shadowlands. Getting 1-2 pieces of useful loot every week will probably be the norm. You have nothing to worry about.

But it will be an item from the raid's entire loot pool which means you have a high chance of getting an item you don't need. Bonus rolls let you target loot from a specific boss.

[Kaver]

But it will be an item from the raid's entire loot pool which means you have a high chance of getting an item you don't need. Bonus rolls let you target loot from a specific boss.

I agree. All I’m saying is that he is technically right about the one guaranteed piece of loot.

[TheRevenantHero]

I agree. All I’m saying is that he is technically right about the one guaranteed piece of loot.

Do we even know if LFR counts? Because if it doesn't, this new system severely punishes casual players as not only are they losing bonus rolls but they also won't benefit from the weekly chest.