1. #1

    Question How will M+ function in SL?

    What changes have been made, apart from the fact there will no longer be seal of fate rolls?

    Someone told me M+ will drop 1 item only, despite if timed or not.

    Is this true?
    What other changes are coming to M+?

  2. #2
    They will be business as usual. Do at least one a week at a certain level.

    Can do more if you want more selection in your end of week chest

    and yes loot per run has been nerfed so grinding them is next to pointless unless you do guild/friend runs and share loot.
    Comes a time when we all gotta die...even kings.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Volatilis View Post
    They will be business as usual. Do at least one a week at a certain level.

    Can do more if you want more selection in your end of week chest

    and yes loot per run has been nerfed so grinding them is next to pointless unless you do guild/friend runs and share loot.
    Wait, so you can choose your item in the end of th week? And the variety of items you are presented each week is dependant on the amount of M+ you've done throughout the week?

    And what's this I hear about Versatility, that Vers items won't be as common in M+ and Raids, but will often be a thing you get from PvP. That true?

  4. #4
    My personal speculation: M+ PUGing will drop off between the (intentional) hassle of covenants and the disincentive to spam. And that's ok. Something WoW has failed to do since introducing M+ is give a true purpose to queued difficulties. I see these queued difficulties getting new life breathed into them as PUGing them is vastly, VASTLY easier, as the only critic you need to please to avoid getting declined is a blizzard-set ilvl. The leap in gear from heroic to low end M+ will be absolutely not worth it, so the only people running a lot of M+ will be people that enjoy it for the experience and can "go deep" with scheduled consistency... which has always been the intended M+ audience: groups of friends. Note that the term "organized" was carefully placed in the description of what avenues of content feed the vault. PUGs aren't organized, and covenants intentionally grate against the "dot eye oh" PUG functionality and mindset.

    So yeah, in some ways, M+ will function as always: Run it with (actual) friends, as intended, and you'll be fine. It's never been intended as a PUG mode. Just because the community wrestled it into one for two expansions doesn't mean that's the vision for the feature.
    Last edited by Omedon; 2020-09-23 at 07:14 AM.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Greengrim View Post
    Wait, so you can choose your item in the end of th week? And the variety of items you are presented each week is dependant on the amount of M+ you've done throughout the week?

    And what's this I hear about Versatility, that Vers items won't be as common in M+ and Raids, but will often be a thing you get from PvP. That true?
    Yeah the more runs of dungeons the bigger selection pool of dungeon items. Likewise if you run dungeons/raids/pvp it will a bit of all 3.

    Im not sure about shadowlands tbh but GENERALLY. Pvp items are heavy on versatility and there are still versatility items in dungeons but not as common.
    Comes a time when we all gotta die...even kings.

  6. #6
    Basically it will give less loot and that loot will now be slightly below heroic raid ilvl item. Weekly chest still gives mythic raid ilvl reward, so it will be worth doing that for that purpose at least. They are also continuing with the mount rewards for keystone master, so people who want that will have to time all 15s again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omedon View Post
    My personal speculation: M+ PUGing will drop off between the (intentional) hassle of covenants and the disincentive to spam. And that's ok. Something WoW has failed to do since introducing M+ is give a true purpose to queued difficulties. I see these queued difficulties getting new life breathed into them as PUGing them is vastly, VASTLY easier, as the only critic you need to please to avoid getting declined is a blizzard-set ilvl. The leap in gear from heroic to low end M+ will be absolutely not worth it, so the only people running a lot of M+ will be people that enjoy it for the experience and can "go deep" with scheduled consistency... which has always been the intended M+ audience: groups of friends. Note that the term "organized" was carefully placed in the description of what avenues of content feed the vault. PUGs aren't organized, and covenants intentionally grate against the "dot eye oh" PUG functionality and mindset.
    I don't really see how any of the changes make it less pug friendly. Harder - sure, so in that sense it is true, but people will still PUG it just fine. In the end pugging is just about getting enough people who know the content to run through it without voice comms. Even back in the older expansion people still pugged hardest difficulty raids.

    So yeah, in some ways, M+ will function as always: Run it with (actual) friends, as intended, and you'll be fine. It's never been intended as a PUG mode. Just because the community wrestled it into one for two expansions doesn't mean that's the vision for the feature.
    Do you have a source on this, or is it just Source(s): Dude trust me? I don't think it was ever said that m+ is supposed not to be pugged, and avenues that allow you to make and search for groups in-game seem to suggest otherwise.

    And of course, none of this will incerase the interest in queuable difficulties, since people who are interested in mythic+ loot are usually way beyond the ilvl from queuable content.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Omedon View Post
    So yeah, in some ways, M+ will function as always: Run it with (actual) friends, as intended, and you'll be fine. It's never been intended as a PUG mode. Just because the community wrestled it into one for two expansions doesn't mean that's the vision for the feature.
    Actually when Blizzard introduced M+ in Legion they had very much pugging in mind. They specifically tried to make the number of M+ keys scarce so that good players would be incentivized to help bad players because the bad players had a key that the good players need. This is why they originally had the keys deplete if you failed them. In many ways Blizzard had this mindset throughout Legion. They also tried to incentivize better players to help worse players in LFR by using the Legendaries as incentive.

    Now I'm not saying that I agree with this philosophy or that it's a good thing, but this was actually the reality in Legion. In BFA Blizzard removed most of the incentives for better players to help worse players.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Omedon View Post
    My personal speculation: M+ PUGing will drop off between the (intentional) hassle of covenants and the disincentive to spam. And that's ok. Something WoW has failed to do since introducing M+ is give a true purpose to queued difficulties. I see these queued difficulties getting new life breathed into them as PUGing them is vastly, VASTLY easier, as the only critic you need to please to avoid getting declined is a blizzard-set ilvl. The leap in gear from heroic to low end M+ will be absolutely not worth it, so the only people running a lot of M+ will be people that enjoy it for the experience and can "go deep" with scheduled consistency... which has always been the intended M+ audience: groups of friends. Note that the term "organized" was carefully placed in the description of what avenues of content feed the vault. PUGs aren't organized, and covenants intentionally grate against the "dot eye oh" PUG functionality and mindset.

    So yeah, in some ways, M+ will function as always: Run it with (actual) friends, as intended, and you'll be fine. It's never been intended as a PUG mode. Just because the community wrestled it into one for two expansions doesn't mean that's the vision for the feature.
    Why was pugging not intended?
    I can't recall them ever saying that.
    But i also don't see how pugging is harder now. Or why Mythic+ gear farming is not worth it. It is only 3 iLvl beneath heroic.
    For most raiders it will still be good to farm it. It will be slower. But raid gearing is also slower.
    That is remedied by loot being BiS again.

    A pug is still organized. LFR and LFD are not organized.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    Why was pugging not intended?
    I can't recall them ever saying that.
    But i also don't see how pugging is harder now. Or why Mythic+ gear farming is not worth it. It is only 3 iLvl beneath heroic.
    For most raiders it will still be good to farm it. It will be slower. But raid gearing is also slower.
    That is remedied by loot being BiS again.

    A pug is still organized. LFR and LFD are not organized.
    M+ players have this kind of idea that m+ gearing was/is faster than heroic raiding and that the difficulty is lower than that of a hc raid. Of course this is all subjective, but for an average heroic raider it's far harder to complete a M+15 than actually complete the raid.

    Based on my own experience, throuhgout 8.0 to 8.2 most of the members of my heroic guild that gets curve every tier was not able to push to m+15, and often didn't even do their weekly 15. In 8.3 this all kind of changed because of corruptions and crazy scaling, so I don't really count that.

    And no, m+ gearing was never faster than raid gearing. Maybe if you had time to do m+ all day every day, but doing a raid was much more time efficient.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Greengrim View Post
    Wait, so you can choose your item in the end of th week? And the variety of items you are presented each week is dependant on the amount of M+ you've done throughout the week?

    And what's this I hear about Versatility, that Vers items won't be as common in M+ and Raids, but will often be a thing you get from PvP. That true?
    The weekly chest will give you up to 3 random item choices from the dungeon bracket and you can pick one of them. If you do one dungeon per week, you get one choice, like you get nowadays. If you do more dungeons in that week, you get more choices. I don't remember the breakpoints for 2 and 3 items. I think it was four dungeons for 2 items to choose from and 10 dungeons for 3 items to choose from.

    The end of dungeon reward in BfA is two items. If you do it in time, you get an additional third item.
    The end of dungeon reward in SL is one item. If you do it in time, you get an additional second item.

    Nothing changes with versatility in pve. It will be on some items like it always has been. They simply made it so that it's going to be on all pvp items because it's the strongest stat in pvp.

    The general ilvl changes in M+ doesn't really change anything. A +15 dungeon drops 3 ilvl lower than heroic raids. It's not as big of a deal as some whiners make it up to be, because more importantly than ilvl are secondary stats. If you don't get your best secondary stats from the raid on all slots (and you won't) then you're still going to be doing dungeons.

    In the long term it's a change for the better for most players because the game puts more focus on the weekly chest and less on end of dungeon rewards. Instead of being "forced" to do the same dungeon over and over in hopes that this specific item titanforges, you will do whatever dungeon you feel like doing and hope for a good reward from the weekly chest. Pretty much how BfA is right now, where titanforging doesn't exist anymore. But instead of being giving one random item, you get a choice of a few items.

    But it also means you have less control over how much good loot you get. With titanforging you could grind dungeons for 40+ hours per week like a fulltime job and the more you play, the more items you get and eventually you got your titanforged stuff on mythic raid ilvl. With this new system you are limited to one item per week with that itemlevel from Mythic+. It's a great change for everyone who don't want to do nothing but M+ dungeons. It's a bad change for those who play this game to do M+ dungeons over and over again.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Omedon View Post
    My personal speculation: M+ PUGing will drop off between the (intentional) hassle of covenants and the disincentive to spam. And that's ok. Something WoW has failed to do since introducing M+ is give a true purpose to queued difficulties. I see these queued difficulties getting new life breathed into them as PUGing them is vastly, VASTLY easier, as the only critic you need to please to avoid getting declined is a blizzard-set ilvl. The leap in gear from heroic to low end M+ will be absolutely not worth it, so the only people running a lot of M+ will be people that enjoy it for the experience and can "go deep" with scheduled consistency... which has always been the intended M+ audience: groups of friends. Note that the term "organized" was carefully placed in the description of what avenues of content feed the vault. PUGs aren't organized, and covenants intentionally grate against the "dot eye oh" PUG functionality and mindset.

    So yeah, in some ways, M+ will function as always: Run it with (actual) friends, as intended, and you'll be fine. It's never been intended as a PUG mode. Just because the community wrestled it into one for two expansions doesn't mean that's the vision for the feature.
    Gotta hard disagree on that one. I've mainly pugged or had 1-2 friends in my M+ runs since its conception in Legion, and I see no reason to "discourage" pugging it. It already self-regulates in that regard in that higher key levels leave smaller and smaller rooms for error.

    If the tuning ends up making max M+ rewards the dungeon equivalent of "get a guild or die" I'll probably have to put WoW away for good. Had less and less time for organised raiding in Legion, and went full pug by mid-BfA, but I still play the game to get curve and clear every dungeon on a +15 as dungeons are the most fun activity in the game for me. If this ends up neutering pug dungeon/raid runs there's not a lot left for a soon-to-be dad schedule to fit in.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Greengrim View Post
    What changes have been made, apart from the fact there will no longer be seal of fate rolls?

    Someone told me M+ will drop 1 item only, despite if timed or not.

    Is this true?
    What other changes are coming to M+?
    you get 1 drop for completion, an additional if timed. was told that it increased to 2/1 from 14 and up, but cant confirm.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    Why was pugging not intended?
    I can't recall them ever saying that.
    When they first announced it the wording was something like it being "for a group of close friends who like challenging content but don't want the organizational hassle of mythic raids".

    At least that's how i remember it, not getting any younger here ;-)

  14. #14
    It'll perform the same for my group of friends like it did before. Run 3-4 a week (or w/e the 2nd choice amount is for the vault), see how high we can go, try to get the achievement for timing them for the mount, and that's about it.

    Since we like doing them, none of the changes (dropping less gear, lower ilvl gear than heroic, no bonus rolls) really affect us too much.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Greengrim View Post
    What changes have been made, apart from the fact there will no longer be seal of fate rolls?

    Someone told me M+ will drop 1 item only, despite if timed or not.

    Is this true?
    What other changes are coming to M+?
    Fingers crossed downgrading of failed Keys are removed soon.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Gigantique View Post
    Gotta hard disagree on that one. I've mainly pugged or had 1-2 friends in my M+ runs since its conception in Legion, and I see no reason to "discourage" pugging it. It already self-regulates in that regard in that higher key levels leave smaller and smaller rooms for error.

    If the tuning ends up making max M+ rewards the dungeon equivalent of "get a guild or die" I'll probably have to put WoW away for good. Had less and less time for organised raiding in Legion, and went full pug by mid-BfA, but I still play the game to get curve and clear every dungeon on a +15 as dungeons are the most fun activity in the game for me. If this ends up neutering pug dungeon/raid runs there's not a lot left for a soon-to-be dad schedule to fit in.
    The thing is, they giveth and they taketh away.

    *IF* my speculation proves true (and I will give respectful nods to some counterpoints in this thread, though I'm not fully sold), and M+ morphs into what I believe is intended as an "only groups of actual friends go deep" feature, they are giving us Torghast and the Maw, two brand new features that are "self owned" and soloable.

    This give and take began in Legion where basically my entire community of friends saw the writing on the wall and moved from dungeon grinding to World Quests, which again came in just as M+ "took dungeons from" those that once used them as the path of least resistance to predictable "good enough to just play the game" loot. And it still is. There's no use for normal and heroic dungeons in BFA, because of WQs.

    It's kinda like the life cycle of heroic dungeons. They went from "the new HARD dungeons" in BC, to "yes, you too O army of Casuals can run these with LFD" in WOTLK to "Ok maybe not ALL of you" in Cataclysm. The vision and "steering" for a feature can change from expansion to expansion.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Wuusah View Post
    The end of dungeon reward in BfA is two items. If you do it in time, you get an additional third item.
    The end of dungeon reward in SL is one item. If you do it in time, you get an additional second item.
    Oh, here I thought it would be one item only in all cases. Two items for in time sounds a lot nicer.

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