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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by WowClassic View Post
    I guess the "lol classic talents are cookie cutter" brigade haven't seen the number of different Rogue specs in Classic for both pve and pvp. I have had to respec with each content release to be optimal for the latest raid while slightly nerfing myself in the previous raid for example, that is more meaningful than anything retail offers.
    Well, in the current game, you can (and have to, if you're doing difficult content) respec for each *boss* or encounter, not just for each content or whole raid.
    So I'm not sure what you mean by meaningful, but this is objectively better than not having to respec at all during a whole raid, because you have to think about your talent choices more (for each boss) rather than just once before you enter the raid.

  2. #182
    Mechagnome Wolfrick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eosia View Post
    Easy... Because in two expansions we will be right back with the same problem we had when Cata hit. Trees are dead. Get used to it.
    You know that we will stay on level 60 forvere... each expansion they will just push us down to 50 and then make us level up to 60 again

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gotural View Post
    I think the problem wasn't in the talent tree concept itself, talent trees are f**king amazing just look at Path of Exile.

    The problem lies in the Classic talent trees, these were just bad. Too few points, too few options, some completely worthless, others completely OP. This is what led to cookie cutter builds, not the system itself imo.

    TBC was already a huge improvement over Classic in that area, many bad talents were buffed, some others baked in the class baseline.
    This is 100% the truth... people always cry out how bad those trees was... its about choice... and trees like vanilla gave us alot of choice
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  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    But you can say the same thing about the old talent trees the. You could play any talent that you wanted. With the old talent tree you didn’t have to pick a cookie cutter build to complete content. You could make your own choices if you wanted. Just like covenants.

    I don’t want the old talent trees back because I don’t think they fit the game anymore, but I think it’s hypocritical of you to say that the old talent didn’t offered any choices while saying that the covenants do. Both the old talent trees and covenants have cookie cutter builds that most people who care about performance will pick.
    But the covenants do have choice. Increasing your existing abilities by a % is not a choice. Getting a different ability based on the covenant is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfrick View Post
    You know that we will stay on level 60 forvere... each expansion they will just push us down to 50 and then make us level up to 60 again
    You don't know that. Blizzard has not said what they will be doing the next expansion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfrick View Post
    This is 100% the truth... people always cry out how bad those trees was... its about choice... and trees like vanilla gave us alot of choice
    They didn't give you any choice. They gave you the ILLUSION of choice. Increasing an ability by a % was not a choice. It was use the cookie cutter or you don't raid.

  4. #184
    Merely a Setback breadisfunny's Avatar
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    because it's 4 weeks til launch why would they add something in at the last second just to push back the date even further that they don't want to implement in the first place? plus if you want a talent tree so bad classic wow has one no?
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  5. #185
    Mechagnome Wolfrick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post

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    You don't know that. Blizzard has not said what they will be doing the next expansion.

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    They didn't give you any choice. They gave you the ILLUSION of choice. Increasing an ability by a % was not a choice. It was use the cookie cutter or you don't raid.
    1st, one have to be blind to not see that the entire squish and how they have made leveling from 1 to 50 be able to apply on every expansion with a chromi tooltip... that has more spaces to ad more expalsins to that interface...

    2nd, the very squish of levels and giving us a 10 level in the new expansion out of 60 levels, is a very smart way to keep the game at a stady level, so as I said, one have to be very naive or narrow eyed to not see that its a huge potential to be an ever green content system that could bring it alot of new players even 10 years from now... having 120 levels is a huge pain for new player... the very number feels way to big. (Other MMORPGs content creators... use the 120 levels as a token to talk about in interviews of a bad mmo design... not stating that its about wow... but its very self evident that they are talking about wow)

    3rd, well, you are right I dont Raid... and I play the game 24/7... everyday of the week, and a talent tree would be amazing since it gives you the choies to build the character the way you want... if you think its an Illusion... since you force your brain to follow the crowds... then that is on you... I have never ever done what the masses want me to do... so stating its an illusion of choice... is like saying.... (Why keep on living... we will die in the end... so Life it self is an illusion of living... since death is inevitable..) world of warcraft with a huge player base... and having the old talent trees would give people who just level all the time and never watch guides... alot of content... so they would enjoy the game we play way more.

    4th, if in your eyes its an illusion... why not have it made... and then you can just follow guides... and keep it the same for the entire expansion... so in this case... having the old talent trees back would not effect you even a bit

    5th, following the 4th point, it would be a win/win situation for us all if talent trees got back, every friend I have that returned to classic... always enjoy the talent trees and that you have to select 1 point each level... it gives the players a sence of progression...
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  6. #186
    Pandaren Monk Rusken's Avatar
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    I'd like to see the old talent tress revamped in a post-Shadowlands expansion and brought in as "Paragon talents" essentially replacing leveling past 60 in future expansions and eventually needing another squish. If you're familiar with D3/ESO, the Paragon/Champion Points from those are something I see working well for WoW. If you're not familiar, it's essentially just progression past max character level that offers very small boosts per point. Every level you'd have a choice between .1% Mastery/Haste/Vers or 1% Movement Speed, Health/Mana regen etc.

    With how quick Shadowlands leveling is, the current trees feel quite nice while questing 10-50. You get a point every couple hours playtime that (mostly) give big power spikes. Post Shadowlands I can see it becoming bland again.

  7. #187
    People forget that its not 2004 anymore. The game is not new. There's nothing worse about using a point system just to get marginal % increases on 1 spell at a time.
    It works for classic, because it's classic. People beg for choice yet use the same builds as everybody else, that same builds they find on the internet.

    Using the talent choice we have now and the random choice of trait system works better. It's less cookie cutter and has continuation for when you are still gearing.

    If they modernize the talent trees, it could totally work. If they even thought about bringing back part of the trees from class artifacts weapons and the whole azerite skills into a new tree.
    Doesn't make sense some of our characters "forget" these skills, some are tied to the weapons power itself, but some classes got the skills as talents anyway? and the whole Azerite is never going to go away canonically. They need a blend of past expansions instead of a swap in swap out like how we're going to be moving on from Azerite to SL covenants.

  8. #188
    Herald of the Titans Aeriedk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthias View Post
    I mean part of the reason they were scrapped and/or rehashed was because the amount of talent points became bloated by level 80.
    I have never actually heard this as the reason they did away with talent trees.

    If I recall correctly is was mainly because of "cookie-cutter" builds. They wanted people to have more options which was why they adopted the new talent system.

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  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfrick View Post
    You know that we will stay on level 60 forvere... each expansion they will just push us down to 50 and then make us level up to 60 again
    Source. /ten

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeriedk View Post
    I have never actually heard this as the reason they did away with talent trees.

    If I recall correctly is was mainly because of "cookie-cutter" builds. They wanted people to have more options which was why they adopted the new talent system.
    No, it was because they would have to constantly redesign them when we find combinations they do not like leading to nerfs like the 40/21/0 BM Nerf in 3.1.

  10. #190
    I feel like what people REALLY want are not specifically Vanilla talent trees, but rather just SOMETHING to put points into that feels like you're progressing your character itself, beyond swapping a set of bracers for better ones or upgrading some external power. I liked Artifacts from Legion for this reason(aside from the spec-switching problems of course) - it kind of sated that ARPG craving of putting points into skills for me.

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by Matthias View Post
    I mean part of the reason they were scrapped and/or rehashed was because the amount of talent points became bloated by level 80.

    It seems like the route Blizz is going is to just perpetually keep us at level 60. Which I'm fine with. But instead of all this borrowed power stuff, why not just give us back our talent trees and improve on them. They're far more exciting when leveling. And Blizzard can perhaps introduce "talent pages" for when we need to quickly respec (no mis allocating points accidently).

    They can keep the current PvP Talents to compliment the actual Talent Trees. Thoughts?
    Becouse that requires them to do something good, that does not happen in retail.

  12. #192
    Herald of the Titans Aeriedk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eosia View Post
    Source. /ten

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    No, it was because they would have to constantly redesign them when we find combinations they do not like leading to nerfs like the 40/21/0 BM Nerf in 3.1.
    Don't they do this now? Maybe not redesign but adjusting tuning etc which is largely what they did before.

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  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeriedk View Post
    Don't they do this now? Maybe not redesign but adjusting tuning etc which is largely what they did before.
    But that happens so few and far between versus the trees. They would need to have 180+ new talents ready to go every expansion.

    And people forget the trees had a lot of filler crap like "X ability does 1%/2%/3% more damage". They baked that crap in.

  14. #194
    simply put, we're going back to 60. Not Vanilla or BC.

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by Azerate View Post
    Old talent trees are bad and Classic has proven that beyond doubt.

    90% of the tree is pointless trash like +1 str, and then the rest are mandatory things you have to take to perform well. Old talent trees bring nothing positive in and just confuse the newbies. Oh, and the "choice" is also much more real now because you often find yourself switching between movement abilities in the new talent rows. Back with the trees 99,99% of people were just running with the same stuff.

    It was an illusion of choice, not actual choice.
    ^This right here. We could get really funky and add ability procs to gems in addition to the stat bonuses, much like trinkets are now. It'd be like azerite armor for all of your slots. Or we could just use that armor system for all armor/weapons and have them socketable. seems like they have the tech already in place to do something like that

  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by Matthias View Post
    I mean part of the reason they were scrapped and/or rehashed was because the amount of talent points became bloated by level 80.

    It seems like the route Blizz is going is to just perpetually keep us at level 60. Which I'm fine with. But instead of all this borrowed power stuff, why not just give us back our talent trees and improve on them. They're far more exciting when leveling. And Blizzard can perhaps introduce "talent pages" for when we need to quickly respec (no mis allocating points accidently).

    They can keep the current PvP Talents to compliment the actual Talent Trees. Thoughts?
    Talent trees are just as pointless it just gives you the illusion of choice when you actually dont have any, there will be one ideal PvE setup and one ideal PvP setup and anything inbetween is not optimal, it just brings in another way that you would have to constantly change your talents if your stepping in a little of all content.
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  17. #197
    The old talent trees were hot garbage the new system works a lot better as it removes the bloaty fluff talents of 1% crit x5 and such and is filled with choices that change your playstyle.

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