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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Peacemoon View Post
    I think the real problem with the big leaps is how differently the game plays throughout the expansion.
    At the start you are basically a noob again with no good stars. By the end you are god mode.
    So it can be really frustrating to play x.0 and x.1, as even with ‘good gear’ your character doesn’t feel like they did in the old expansion.

    Also Blizzard really shoot themselves in the foot. I don’t have all the answers. But so much dev and art time goes into a raid tier. It’s a lot of dev time invested into something that will only be active for a short period of time and never be current again.
    They rest need to find a use for old raid tiers within the same expansion cycles. It is the biggest flaw in the current system, and so much wasted content. There must be an answer.
    And no, I’m not trying to get people to ‘need’ to raid every raid every week. But old raids should serve a purpose. They found a solution for dungeons with M+ which was amazing, as old expansions had useless dungeons once raids came out. Now they need to find a purpose for old raid tiers when a new one comes out.
    This this.
    Old raid tiers should still be relevant. Less inflation, more triggers to go there like raid weekly quest. Easier to jump into. Wings queueale whatever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmist View Post
    Hah, noooo.

    If anything because the ilvl is going down, the ilvl % gap will be even bigger than before.

    I'm honestly down for higher difficulty raids just having more chance to drop items, or more chance to drop them with sockets already in place so I don't have to farm for the crappy currency, rather than a straight up ilvl increase.

    If having better gear than plebs is what keeps you raiding, then you're not a raider.
    Wow, thats actually good idea. No ilvl increase by diff difficulties but just more drops. And maybe with recolors and more beautiful looking gear. But same ilvl.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpoke is a Gamer View Post
    The inflation is baked into having 4 different difficulties and also 4 tiers in an expansion.

    Until one of those facts change (spoiler: It'd be difficulties) the inflation rate won't drop.
    I find it more likely we'd get less tiers than less difficulties. Besides, reducing difficulties wouldn't do anything, you'd still get the same difference between tiers because that was never about the difficulties to begin with.

    And if they remove any difficulty, it'll be mythic. That one is the most work for the least gain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zenjie View Post
    This this.
    Old raid tiers should still be relevant. Less inflation, more triggers to go there like raid weekly quest. Easier to jump into. Wings queueale whatever.
    And two weeks in you'd be here complaining that you're sick of <old raid tier> but still have to do it for <BiS slot>.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    And two weeks in you'd be here complaining that you're sick of <old raid tier> but still have to do it for <BiS slot>.
    Well people complain about anything you do, and anything you don’t do, so that’s not a reason for paralysis.

    Maybe every week an old tier could become active again, maybe via a weekly quest that would give you some reward.
    So many ways it could be done. Quest reward, currency to spend on current tier loot rolls, a chance for an old item at a higher ilevel, etc etc.

    If we really don’t want to encourage people to play with old raids, parts of them could always be added to the M+ pool for 5 man content but using the old raid’s kit. Basically repurpose them.
    A bit like how Hall of Origination art got reused for 8.3 questline.
    No need for all that work to go to waste.
    I guess I like how M+ keeps dungeons relevant throughout the expansion. And even with a new raid tier, you still do M+ with the same dungeons and mobs as the previous tier, but with more new dungeons on top.

    For example, I missed the first tier of BfA. So I’ve never been in Uldir, and probably many others haven’t either!

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Overcharg3 View Post
    So with there only being a 13 item level gap between raid difficulties in shadowlands (down from 15) and with titanforging no longer being a thing, will we see much less power creep than the previous few expansions or will all of the borrowed power sources that we're getting from covenants and legendaries off-set this entire change?
    I think they are going to reign it in a little. To be honest...if they got rid of LFR they could reduce the ilvl inflation much further. But I know LFR isn't going anywhere.

  5. #25
    Would removing difficulties help? Yes, but even more important than that is Blizzard needs to abandon the belief that players need to have a "significant" power jump between raid tiers. I remember saying this over and over through out the years.

  6. #26
    Real talk, the Great Vault and the grindable sockets are going to make players more powerful than ever in each individual tier. The only real way to offset this player power is to inflate item levels between tiers. It would seem to me, at least, that Blizzard has kind of abandoned the idea of power creep between patches and simply want to either squish every expansion or every other expansion and call it a day. They've been on record saying they will eventually have to come up with a better solution than squishing but after three squishes it seems like this simply isn't something they can roll out effectively.

    Personally, I'm all for ludicrous power -- which is why I quite fancy the Corruption system in 8.3 (Blizzard fixed my main complaint about the system with the vendor) -- so I'm curious to see how everything plays out in SL.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryzek View Post
    Would removing difficulties help? Yes, but even more important than that is Blizzard needs to abandon the belief that players need to have a "significant" power jump between raid tiers. I remember saying this over and over through out the years.
    Well, good luck convincing the players they don't. Blizzard didn't come to that conclusion in a vacuum.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Well, good luck convincing the players they don't. Blizzard didn't come to that conclusion in a vacuum.
    I'm well aware of it, and Blizzard is not going to change that. I don't get the whole remove difficulties used as a way to reduce inflation. Even if you did remove difficulties Blizzard will still make that power go up due to that fundamental belief.

  9. #29
    Listen. What if...

    Since M+15 end dungeon rewards are now 3 itemlevel lower than Heroic.

    They could make old Mythic Gear, the same itemlevel as that. 3 ilvl lower that the next tier HC.
    Giving new HC raids still a decent upgrade, without a too high jump in gear to make it fully irrelevant, whilst also not forcing mythic raiders to farm M+15's with the new reduced drop rates.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryzek View Post
    I'm well aware of it, and Blizzard is not going to change that. I don't get the whole remove difficulties used as a way to reduce inflation. Even if you did remove difficulties Blizzard will still make that power go up due to that fundamental belief.
    You're missing the point. It's not a "belief", it's an observation. Blizzard has tried doing with smaller gaps, and quickly found out it doesn't work.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by ZazuuPriest View Post
    if anything theyre going to double down on borrowed power and give us essences and corruption 2.0. BUT with a new and interesting name
    someone hasn't been playing on the beta...

  12. #32
    I hope there is less. At least with keys you had to do +5s in the new patch before you started getting "better" gear. With raid gear what was Mythic level gear last patch is normal level gear this patch.
    Me thinks Chromie has a whole lot of splaining to do!

  13. #33
    They might cut the tier difference from 2x difficulty to 1.5x difficulty, but no more than that. By difficulty I mean 15 ilvls in BFA, 13 in Shadowlands. This would bump everything by 19-20 item levels instead of 26. It wouldn't be dissimilar to WotlK tier gains where half of them went up by +19 item levels.

    Tier goes down, difficulty goes across.
    10 man / 25 man -> 10 man Heroic / 25 man Heroic
    200 / 213 Naxx
    219 / 226 Ulduar (+19 / +13 tier) -> 226 / 239 Ulduar HM (+7 / +13 difficulty)
    232 / 245 ToC (+13 / +13 tier) -> 245 / 258 ToC Heroic (+13 / +13 difficulty)
    251 / 264 ICC (+19 / +19 tier) -> 258 / 277 ICC Heroic (+7 / +13 difficulty)

    However, with the way the M+ item levels are done, it would make some weirdness where things are often off by 1 item level. But maybe they don't care about that.

  14. #34
    The Patient LuckyOne's Avatar
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    13 itemlevel difference will be better than 15 especially long term since the stat increase is exponential (for obvious reasons).

    So the short answer is yes if covenants/legendarys won't become crazier each patch.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by LuckyOne View Post
    13 itemlevel difference will be better than 15 especially long term since the stat increase is exponential (for obvious reasons).

    So the short answer is yes if covenants/legendarys won't become crazier each patch.
    It won't make a huge difference, though. You're looking at something like 16 iLvl less in the final tier, which corresponds to a roughly 16-17% lower stat total.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by ZazuuPriest View Post
    ... the entire premise of the thread is speculation edgelord.
    the entire premise of these forums is speculation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    It won't make a huge difference, though. You're looking at something like 16 iLvl less in the final tier, which corresponds to a roughly 16-17% lower stat total.
    and with stat scaling beyond 25% stats are going to be worth less and less.

  17. #37
    The Patient LuckyOne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    It won't make a huge difference, though. You're looking at something like 16 iLvl less in the final tier, which corresponds to a roughly 16-17% lower stat total.
    That is not how exponential growth works.
    Iirc 5 itemlevel for legion/bfa was around 5% more main stats (secondary stat growth is less exponential than mainstat but since they scale with themselves...oh well.)
    I'm also not sure if the stats went up in 5 or 15 itemlevel increments (or even 1 in a smooth curve?)

    However if it'll be 16 iLvl less at the end that will be more than 16-17% of the base stats you went into in the first raid for sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dcc626 View Post

    and with stat scaling beyond 25% stats are going to be worth less and less.
    Only secondary stats iirc which is good since they scale too well with themselves.
    It should also incentivise more distribution between all stats so you don't get f'cked too hard because your secondary stat is not on the item even though it has higher iLvl.

    Edit: even though i will never understand why people dislike iLvl/stat inflation as long as it's not too ridiculous, you want to feel the increase of power when you get loot from a higher difficulty or a new raid, right...?
    Last edited by LuckyOne; 2020-09-25 at 01:04 PM.

  18. #38
    Field Marshal Moi2003's Avatar
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    Why not just go back like it was in ulduar. Have some kind of hard mode for every boss.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post

    Progression never was difficult until the introduction of multiple difficulty levels in the first place, as Classic has abundantly shown.
    You know, something funny happened on my Classic server, Dreadmist-EU. We started getting INSANE lag in various areas of the game, on the Eastern Kingdoms server, for unknown reasons. Something must've messed up the cloud that the separate servers of the game are hosted on (login server, EK server, instance server, Kalimdor server etc). Anyways, point being, we zone into MC and everyone has 2,000 MS. EVERYONE starts whining. As raid leader, I tell them to STFU, this is the true vanilla experience, this is how I healed as a 14yr old resto druid back in the day, with 2,500 MS, 3 seconds delay, developing a mini-6th sense that looked forward into the future to predict when dmg would come so I could heal 2.5 seconds before the dmg actually happened and pointing my camera to the ground to get maximum amount of FPS. People said it was unplayable, that this was horseshit, yada yada yada.

    Imagine. The way I (and everyone else) was used to playing the game back then would be considered unplayable by today's standards. And we still managed to kill Ragnaros with 2 submerge phases, back then. So please, stop comparing apples to oranges. Classic is not Vanilla. Classic is me re-doing a 9th grade maths test with the knowledge I have today with a Master of Science in Economics hanging over my TV. Vanilla was 9th grader me doing the 9th grade math test.
    Last edited by Dalinos; 2020-09-25 at 01:20 PM.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Heck there were some instances where trinkets from previous EXPANSIONS were BiS. That's fucked up for all sorts of reasons.
    Genuine question: when and what trinket?

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