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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Nephod View Post
    Genuine question: when and what trinket?
    Neltharion's Tear, from Vanilla to TBC, cause of the insane Hit Rating it gave (2% translated to 28 spellhit rating). Regarding weapons, Thunderfury could be used to tank up to Illidan in TBC. Insignia of the Alliance carried over from vanilla into TBC, until Medallion of the Alliance was released, which did the same thing but was a 2min CD instead of a 5min CD. That's...all I can think of atm.

  2. #42
    Stood in the Fire Recovery's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Repeating it won't make it true. If you remove a difficulty, you'll still get the exact same iLvl jump per tier. At most, the last tier will be 13 iLvl lower, other than that, you're not achieving anything.



    Progression never was difficult until the introduction of multiple difficulty levels in the first place, as Classic has abundantly shown.
    classic progression is easy because its a 16 year old game that people have religiously played on private servers for 10+ years. The game in all aspects has been perfected to a T by mega nostalgia nerds that were stuck in the past for a decade.

    The 4 difficulties ARE in fact what causes ilvl infaltion. Every tier you "have" to increase ilvl by X amount per difficulty so that people feel like theyre getting rewarded.

    Due to LFR and normal and the extremely casual players that take part in that content, you have to raise the ilvl of those difficulties every tier as well so that THEY feel like theyre being rewarded.

    Bascially heroic and mythic are the only raid difficulties for any kind of serious player.

    The problem lies in the fact that if you need to take a break for a tier, it becomes crazy to catch up because youre crazy behind when you come back. However, if you continuously play all through the expack, you stay on par for the course.

    There were relatively large ilvl increases in say... wotlk too. However, the content / reward ilvl was separated by raid size. Also, Stat inflation wasnt as crazy alongside the ilvl inflation. If i remember correctly, ICC had 10 man normal and heroic as well as 25 man normal and heroic. All 4 difficulties dropped progressively higher ilvl.

    Edit: i think 10m heroic and 25m normal dropped same ilvl. So there were 3 different ilvl rewarded, which increased by 13 ilvl. Also, Lich king weapons were higher ilvl than anything in the raid, i believe.
    Last edited by Recovery; 2020-09-25 at 01:36 PM.

  3. #43
    Something like this should be enough:

    ----------Tier 1
    200 207
    213 220
    226 233
    ----------Tier 2
    220 227
    233 240
    246 253
    ----------Tier 3
    240 247
    253 260
    266 273
    ----------Tier 4
    260 267
    273 280
    286 293

    That's only 20 ilvls between tiers instead of 30. If you do for example Mythic you still get some upgrade by running Heroic but not an entire tier, their actual upgrades will come doing the content they actually prepare for. The only caveat is that Blizzard will need to tune bosses even tighter or run the possibility of undertuning the raids.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by PointerToAddress View Post
    Something like this should be enough:

    ----------Tier 1
    200 207
    213 220
    226 233
    ----------Tier 2
    220 227
    233 240
    246 253
    ----------Tier 3
    240 247
    253 260
    266 273
    ----------Tier 4
    260 267
    273 280
    286 293

    That's only 20 ilvls between tiers instead of 30. If you do for example Mythic you still get some upgrade by running Heroic but not an entire tier, their actual upgrades will come doing the content they actually prepare for. The only caveat is that Blizzard will need to tune bosses even tighter or run the possibility of undertuning the raids.
    what does each number represent? what content / difficulty?

    Edit: oh i get it.

    I still think thats too much inflation, unless the stats dont inflate with the ilvl as much. IMO. if you raid mythic in tier 1 and then quit for a bit or whatever, you should be able to come into tier 2 and start at heroic with everyone else. You shouldnt have to grind ilvl at each content step every tier of the game. As i said previously, LFR and Normal arent real difficulties. They're literally for casuals.

    I dont think it makes much sense for a mythic geared player in tier 1 to have to farm normal raid in tier 2.

    This model made sense when there was abundant loot around every corner. Not so much when you're getting loot at 1/3 the rate.

    IMO, slow ilvl progression / inflation. Leave personal loot for dungeons and lfr and make all raid difficulties either master loot, need/greed, or at least the option to choose. Maybe heroic / mythic could be need before greed unless the group is made up of 3/4 of a guild and dame for mythic.
    Last edited by Recovery; 2020-09-25 at 01:51 PM.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Recovery View Post
    what does each number represent? what content / difficulty?

    Edit: oh i get it.

    I still think thats too much inflation, unless the stats dont inflate with the ilvl as much. IMO. if you raid mythic in tier 1 and then quit for a bit or whatever, you should be able to come into tier 2 and start at heroic with everyone else. You shouldnt have to grind ilvl at each content step every tier of the game. As i said previously, LFR and Normal arent real difficulties. They're literally for casuals.

    I dont think it makes much sense for a mythic geared player in tier 1 to have to farm normal raid in tier 2.
    They dont. If you do Mythic at tier 1 you pretty much can go straight to Mythic Tier 2 if you want. The difference between Tier 1 Mythic and Tier 2 Heroic is only 6 ilvls. You can do Heroic to get some upgrade, sure but you're statistically close enough to Mythic that, if you're good enough, you'll be able to hang with everybody else.

    And my bad, I didn't make the numbers clearer. The first number is the ilvl of the raid and the second number is the last boss/last 2 bosses of the raid if the raid design stays the same throughout the expansion.

    Also, btw, the spread is reminding me of WotLK, Naxx 10 man was 200 ilvl and Ruby Sanctum Heroic was 284 ilvl iirc
    Last edited by PointerToAddress; 2020-09-25 at 01:58 PM.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Overcharg3 View Post
    So with there only being a 13 item level gap between raid difficulties in shadowlands (down from 15) and with titanforging no longer being a thing, will we see much less power creep than the previous few expansions or will all of the borrowed power sources that we're getting from covenants and legendaries off-set this entire change?
    Should be. 13 iLvls still feel like too much. 10 iLvl increase per tier feels like enough, for example mythic raid gear going from 226 in the first tier to 236 in the second tier.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    Should be. 13 iLvls still feel like too much. 10 iLvl increase per tier feels like enough, for example mythic raid gear going from 226 in the first tier to 236 in the second tier.
    that also doesnt work because people who only do dungeons or only do normal raid or only do whatever want to feel like theyre getting upgrades as well.

    To me, the issue is that blizzard has bitten off more than they can chew by creating TOO MUCH content (never thought id say that).

    Its not too much content for a mythic raider. Its too much content just in general via difficulties. Blizzard has tried to cater to EVERYONE and make them happy and by doing so, have watered the game down.

    Basically everyone has a "catch up mechanic" for every difficulty. Personally, i think the better version of this was vendors / currency.

    If you had a "Nazjatar" every patch, you could eliminate raising ilvl rewards on EVERY difficulty... EVERY patch.
    Last edited by Recovery; 2020-09-25 at 02:08 PM.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Because that would require reducing the number of tiers, not difficulties. With two difficulties you'd still see the same iLvl increase per tier.

    Progress in Vanilla was not difficult. The encounters were an utter joke when they weren't bugged. What was difficult was getting 40 competent people.
    No you wouldnt. Item level inflation is set by numbers difficutly levels in first tier. +15 +15 +15 +15 instead of +15 +15.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Recovery View Post
    classic progression is easy because its a 16 year old game that people have religiously played on private servers for 10+ years. The game in all aspects has been perfected to a T by mega nostalgia nerds that were stuck in the past for a decade.

    The 4 difficulties ARE in fact what causes ilvl infaltion. Every tier you "have" to increase ilvl by X amount per difficulty so that people feel like theyre getting rewarded.

    Due to LFR and normal and the extremely casual players that take part in that content, you have to raise the ilvl of those difficulties every tier as well so that THEY feel like theyre being rewarded.

    Bascially heroic and mythic are the only raid difficulties for any kind of serious player.

    The problem lies in the fact that if you need to take a break for a tier, it becomes crazy to catch up because youre crazy behind when you come back. However, if you continuously play all through the expack, you stay on par for the course.

    There were relatively large ilvl increases in say... wotlk too. However, the content / reward ilvl was separated by raid size. Also, Stat inflation wasnt as crazy alongside the ilvl inflation. If i remember correctly, ICC had 10 man normal and heroic as well as 25 man normal and heroic. All 4 difficulties dropped progressively higher ilvl.

    Edit: i think 10m heroic and 25m normal dropped same ilvl. So there were 3 different ilvl rewarded, which increased by 13 ilvl. Also, Lich king weapons were higher ilvl than anything in the raid, i believe.
    This idea that the difficulties caused the inflation is a bit off the mark.

    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Stat_squish

    The biggest jump if you look is always between expansions. Also worth noting, there wasn't 4 difficulties until the end of MoP which was when the squish happened anyway.

    There will always be item level inflation because of the same reason it's always happened, Blizzard wants the gear from new raids to feel like upgrades.

    Going back down to two difficulties would only slightly lower the inflation, but it will still be there.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    This idea that the difficulties caused the inflation is a bit off the mark.

    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Stat_squish

    The biggest jump if you look is always between expansions. Also worth noting, there wasn't 4 difficulties until the end of MoP which was when the squish happened anyway.

    There will always be item level inflation because of the same reason it's always happened, Blizzard wants the gear from new raids to feel like upgrades.

    Going back down to two difficulties would only slightly lower the inflation, but it will still be there.
    Technically there were 4 difficulties in wrath. 10m normal, 10m heroic, 25m normal, 25m heroic, at least in ICC. Before, it was just "hard modes", i guess.

    WOTLK heroic dungeon - ilvl 200 (i think)

    Naxxramas 25 loot = 226

    ICC heroic 25 loot = 277

    So over the entire course of the wotlk expansion, Raid ilvl only increased 50 points. Heroic dungeon ilvl thru to heroic 25man icc increased only 77. THE ENTIRE EXPANSION. 4 raids and like 4 mini raids.. 50 ilvl increase.

    There over a 50ilvl increase from heroic dungeon to mythic raid in the first tier of shadowlands ALONE! Imagine what the spread will be by the time the last raid of the expansion is released..

    Youre literally going to be back at the ilvl of the start of BFA by the time we get to the end of shadowlands.

    This system cant sustain itself without reaching absurd numbers if they dont do a squish every expansion.

    Can you imagine 2 expansions from now... "YO bro, whats your ilvl?"

    "1250"

    lolol
    Last edited by Recovery; 2020-09-25 at 04:46 PM.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Recovery View Post
    Technically there were 4 difficulties in wrath. 10m normal, 10m heroic, 25m normal, 25m heroic, at least in ICC. Before, it was just "hard modes", i guess.

    WOTLK heroic dungeon - ilvl 200 (i think)

    Naxxramas 25 loot = 226

    ICC heroic 25 loot = 277

    So over the entire course of the wotlk expansion, Raid ilvl only increased 50 points. Heroic dungeon ilvl thru to heroic 25man icc increased only 77. THE ENTIRE EXPANSION. 4 raids and like 4 mini raids.. 50 ilvl increase.

    There over a 50ilvl increase from heroic dungeon to mythic raid in the first tier of shadowlands ALONE! Imagine what the spread will be by the time the last raid of the expansion is released..
    And that isn't an issue with the amount of difficulties but rather Blizzard's own choice to have such gaps between raids. Nothing is going to change the inflation between tiers unless Blizzard decides to just stop having such big gaps, but they've also had said before that they think it's more enjoyable when raids consistently give upgrades because of item level, and when you can actually feel the upgrade rather than "Oh, it's +5 crit more which isn't much at all".

  12. #52
    Blizzard should really employ a numbers expert.
    Even in Diablo 3 you go from hitting for a few thousand to hitting for billions of damage. That’s why you need 16+ difficulty settings which I know is really off putting to some gamer friends.

    I guess nothing will change now as every new raid tier is considered a ‘new season’. The terminology pretty much guarantees a start over from scratch with every major patch, and all previous efforts are not worth anything going into the new season.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Nephod View Post
    Genuine question: when and what trinket?
    I believe there was a healer trinket from classic that was used well into TBC.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    And that isn't an issue with the amount of difficulties but rather Blizzard's own choice to have such gaps between raids. Nothing is going to change the inflation between tiers unless Blizzard decides to just stop having such big gaps, but they've also had said before that they think it's more enjoyable when raids consistently give upgrades because of item level, and when you can actually feel the upgrade rather than "Oh, it's +5 crit more which isn't much at all".
    Thats the exact reason why its a result of difficulty levels.

    By having all of these difficulty levels, in order to make the gap any smaller, the spread between difficulties would be so insignificant that there would be no point.

    Less difficulties = less inflation. Just like in wrath.

    Less difficulties means that you can increase the ilvl by 15 or even 20 so that you can "feel it" but ilvl doesnt get out of control in the process....

    Also, the inflation in between tiers is a DIRECT result of difficulty level. In order to increase mythic by 30 ilvl, they have to increase everything else by 30 ilvl as well.. Otherwise, youd never be able to gear an alt or start a character late in an expansion.
    Last edited by Recovery; 2020-09-25 at 06:19 PM.

  15. #55
    ilvl power growth isn't linear. so reducing ilvls a little bit isn't going to have a meaningful effect. sure thing will get a little less crazy just before a squish, but it won't delay a squish.

  16. #56
    My gut says yes there will be, however I feel like they could avoid it if they changed their formula a bit. New formula being something along this line:
    T1 : LFR(187/194) N(200/207) H(213/220) M(226/233)
    T2: LFR(200/207) N(213/220) H(226/233) M(240/246)

    And instead just straight up zooming past the last tier you just move up one increment of iLevel so if you're a heroic raider and you come back after a break the LFR heroes didn't storm past you in power, but you do have to catch back up to heroic raiders. Especially with no T-Forging I feel like that'd be the right way to go. But no system will leave everyone happy, just a first thought to something that would work nicely for the longevity of the game.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Recovery View Post
    Thats the exact reason why its a result of difficulty levels.

    By having all of these difficulty levels, in order to make the gap any smaller, the spread between difficulties would be so insignificant that there would be no point.

    Less difficulties = less inflation. Just like in wrath.

    Less difficulties means that you can increase the ilvl by 15 or even 20 so that you can "feel it" but ilvl doesnt get out of control in the process....

    Also, the inflation in between tiers is a DIRECT result of difficulty level. In order to increase mythic by 30 ilvl, they have to increase everything else by 30 ilvl as well.. Otherwise, youd never be able to gear an alt or start a character late in an expansion.
    I'm telling you flat out what Blizzard said. Even IF you take away a difficulty, they're still going to be doing big jumps between the raid tiers. All you do is shave off a few item levels overall. The ilvl curve will always be exponential, not linear.


    The only reason it seemed fine in Wrath was because they didn't have to curve the stats as much, because exponential curve and all.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Overcharg3 View Post
    So with there only being a 13 item level gap between raid difficulties in shadowlands (down from 15) and with titanforging no longer being a thing, will we see much less power creep than the previous few expansions or will all of the borrowed power sources that we're getting from covenants and legendaries off-set this entire change?
    Doubt it give it a patch or 2 we will soon be seeing epics rain from the sky again.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    I find it more likely we'd get less tiers than less difficulties. Besides, reducing difficulties wouldn't do anything, you'd still get the same difference between tiers because that was never about the difficulties to begin with.

    And if they remove any difficulty, it'll be mythic. That one is the most work for the least gain.

    - - - Updated - - -



    And two weeks in you'd be here complaining that you're sick of <old raid tier> but still have to do it for <BiS slot>.
    Removing tiers is the one thing i think won't happen. Fewer tiers = more dead time = bigger sub losses.

    I think it's more likely they purge "Normal," rebrand LFR to Normal, and keep Heroic and Mythic as the two organized difficulties.
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  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    I'm telling you flat out what Blizzard said. Even IF you take away a difficulty, they're still going to be doing big jumps between the raid tiers. All you do is shave off a few item levels overall. The ilvl curve will always be exponential, not linear.


    The only reason it seemed fine in Wrath was because they didn't have to curve the stats as much, because exponential curve and all.
    There wont be. Becouse if you have only 2 raid difficutly levels you can have tier 2 heroic on level of previous mythic raid and mythic to have +15 itemlvl. But in order to make all difficutly levels somehow relevant you have to boost itemlvl muich higher between tiers in order to make imtelvl space for normal, heroic and mythic so you need atlest 30 imtelvls to fit all that itemlvl.

    Yeah you can make LFR and normal tier 2 itemlvl overlap tier 1 normal and heroic but that pretty much as removing those difficulty levels becouse gear itemlvl will be worse than what you got in previous tier so nobady will ever bother.

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