Thread: Meat is murder

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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunseeker View Post
    Whose expectations exactly?


    I used "ripped to shred" because that was Josuke's choice of words, no other reasons.

    And the anger stems from your sort being as annoying as ever.




    Well we're the only one with computers and moral debates about eating other animals.


    Oh well you could have just asked. It's our intelligence.

    We protect them because of biological compulsions and social training. Like animals we know they'll propagate our species, unlike animals we can concieve of the abstract idea that they might improve our species.
    We did kill or breed into extinction every other primate that was even remotely close to our intelligence.

    Zookeepers give primates tablets and stuff, you should check it out. They're pretty good at using them.

    You do keep raising this bar. At first it was intelligence, then sentience and now its computers and ethics. Studies into moral behaviour displayed by animals might surprise you too.

    I really do think you need to try understand where our intelligence actually came from instead of just declaring us top dogs so we can just do what we like to animals because lol they dont have memes so they dont deserve life.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Josuke View Post
    We are growing meat in labs and you can only think of total extinction.
    Well shoot. I thought I was being so outrageously over the top with my "kill all aliens" comment that only the most dense of people wouldn't recognize it as joking.

    Oh wait, that's exactly what happened.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Nastard View Post
    Well shoot. I thought I was being so outrageously over the top with my "kill all aliens" comment that only the most dense of people wouldn't recognize it as joking.

    Oh wait, that's exactly what happened.
    I understood it was a joke

    You do realise jokes come from somewhere? A point of view etc.

  4. #44
    The Insane PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunseeker View Post
    Oh well you could have just asked. It's our intelligence.

    We protect them because of biological compulsions and social training. Like animals we know they'll propagate our species, unlike animals we can concieve of the abstract idea that they might improve our species.
    Yeah exactly, I think getting full human rights, such as the right to not be murdered and eaten is based on general intelligence. Non-human animals have intelligence but not general intelligence. Also I think what we call "sentience" actually comes from error-correction in a general intelligence so I'm skeptical of the claim that animals such as chimps, elephants and dolphins are sentient. Some people claim they are sentient but it's purely based on conjecture and not proof.
    -------
    A problem consists of a conflict between two ideas. Problems are soluble.
    Fallacies: Ad hominem, Generalizing history to predetermine the future.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    Yeah exactly, I think getting full human rights, such as the right to not be murdered and eaten is based on general intelligence. Non-human animals have intelligence but not general intelligence. Also I think what we call "sentience" actually comes from error-correction in a general intelligence so I'm skeptical of the claim that animals such as chimps, elephants and dolphins are sentient. Some people claim they are sentient but it's purely based on conjecture and not proof.
    Basing rights on intelligence doesn't bode well for lots of people. Your concept of intelligence is likely off and biased towards whatever level your intelligence is. Imagine if Neil DeGrasse Tyson had the same idea about you for example?

    I've seen a chicken walk back and forth in front of mower to make the person mowing go slow, because the mower was kicking out seeds and the other chickens were eating them. Then when the walker had enough they went to the group to eat and another took over the walking. If that mower was kicking out candy and we were talking 8 year old humans instead of chickens I doubt they would have formulated such a plan.

    intelligence is relative, that is why vegans base their line around the being's ability to have a central nervous system that can feel pain. If they can feel pain then they can suffer and there's no need to cause suffering over something like flavor,
    Last edited by Bodakane; 2020-09-25 at 03:30 AM.
    When I despair, I remember that all through history, there have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they seem invincible.
    But in the end, they always fall. Always.- Mahatma Gandhi


  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    Yeah exactly, I think getting full human rights, such as the right to not be murdered and eaten is based on general intelligence.
    Life undeserving of life is what that sounds like.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    Yeah exactly, I think getting full human rights, such as the right to not be murdered and eaten is based on general intelligence. Non-human animals have intelligence but not general intelligence. Also I think what we call "sentience" actually comes from error-correction in a general intelligence so I'm skeptical of the claim that animals such as chimps, elephants and dolphins are sentient. Some people claim they are sentient but it's purely based on conjecture and not proof.
    I've always felt the only reason we assume other animals lack sentience on any level is so we don't feel as guilty when we fuck them over. We also make up shit like "goldfish only have 5 second memories" so we don't feel badly about leaving them in small glass bowls their entire lives. In the philosophies of animal rights, sentience is defined as the ability to feel pleasure or pain. Some people say dogs aren't sentient, but begin opening a can of wet food or take out the leash and watch them explode with excitement. They clearly get some degree pleasure out of that. You mentioned dolphins, but dolphins are one of the few animals on earth that we know will fuck each other purely for pleasure.

    Other people define sentience as having a sense of "self." That's probably a good metric, but how do they routinely test that? They do the mirror test. They plop a mirror down in front of the animal and see how they react towards the reflection. If they think it's another animal, they're deemed not sentient. If they recognize it as themselves? Sentient. I find a lot of flaws in that standard and don't think it's a good unit of measurement. There could be a myriad of reasons why an animal wouldn't recognize its own reflection, but still have a sense of self.

    A common scientific view today is that sentience is generated by neural structures and processes. Basically the central nervous system. It's thought that sponges, mesozoans and something else that I can't remember are the only animals that aren't sentient.

    I guess what I'm getting at is that the science behind sentience is not exact because the "proof" you mentioned would only exist if we're able to jump inside an animals head and know what they're thinking. The best we've gotten is communicating via sign language with Koko the monkey. If I personally had to venture a guess, I'd say most mammals at a minimum are sentient albeit at a lesser degree than humans. What does that have to do with this conversation? Fuck if I know. Maybe the tastiest animals are the ones that are most self-aware? Hell, maybe cannibals are onto something.

  8. #48
    The Insane PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    There's no argument you can make that can defeat a vegan's argument for being vegan.
    Except all arguments about right or wrong values and behaviors can either be justified with reasons or they can be countered by valid criticism. If nothing can defeat a vegans arguments and reasons then that means their argument is correct.
    -------
    A problem consists of a conflict between two ideas. Problems are soluble.
    Fallacies: Ad hominem, Generalizing history to predetermine the future.

  9. #49
    "Don't have a right"... oh shut up. We're creatures of the earth just like any other on this planet, and we're all part of a food chain. When we die we're worm food, and they don't give a damn if you were vegan or not.

  10. #50
    Void Lord Doctor Amadeus's Avatar
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    Meat is sustenance and a very valuable source. Although personally over the last couple of years I have moved away from Meat successfully and, I am working on cutting out all Meat and Animal byproduct as my body and mind get accumulated to it.

    That being said, I am not doing any of it because I give a fuck about every single living breathing animal on this planet, in fact, I am kind of convinced people call themselves animal lovers typically aren't and often times full of shit about their sick cult like affection for animals.

    I don't of course wish suffering or death on anyone or anything as per say, and one of the benefits of going vegan for me which is mostly based on converting to a healthy diet, I do like the fact it helps end the horrible conditions animals endure.


    I'm uninterested in lectures, I don't need sanctimonious bullshit about farm animals are our friends, because like wildlife and everything else, NO they aren't, and a fair more amount actually only exist because we created them in the first place.

    I can totally understand someone who feels opposite, and some situations it's because SOME really do care. But food shaming is silly.
    #ANTIFA "Intellect alone is useless in a fight...you can't even break a rule, how can you be expected to break bone" Khan Singh

  11. #51
    Immortal callipygoustp's Avatar
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    Gotta be honest: I really REALLY enjoyed the rare NY strip steak I had tonight. Delicious.

    - - - Updated - - -

    There was a thread recently about things you miss, in line with this thread: I really really REALLY fucking miss fresh meat. Decades ago I used to raise and kill my own chickens, and a couple cows and pigs along the way. Fresh meat just can't be beat.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by AryuFate View Post
    I’m glad we’ve come so far as to establish that animals feel pain and we should cause a painless death. Now we need to accept that we have no right to deprive animals of a basic need: existence. Imagine you were born a duck... wouldn’t you want to keep living? Let them die of natural causes, but don’t end their life early. It is cruel.
    Little problem here. Plant life and fungi have also shown that they feel pain. If we go by your own viewpoint nothing would be eaten because not enough life dies from natural causes to sustain even a fraction of the species.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    Little problem here. Plant life and fungi have also shown that they feel pain. If we go by your own viewpoint nothing would be eaten because not enough life dies from natural causes to sustain even a fraction of the species.
    That's a bit more contentious, plants certainly communicate and show an awareness of the environment around them. Another thing with plants is they often produce things they want animals to eat to help in their reproduction, nothing contradictory with eating that.

    Anyway Jainism kinda covered this already.

  14. #54
    The Insane PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by callipygoustp View Post
    Gotta be honest: I really REALLY enjoyed the rare NY strip steak I had tonight. Delicious.

    - - - Updated - - -

    There was a thread recently about things you miss, in line with this thread: I really really REALLY fucking miss fresh meat. Decades ago I used to raise and kill my own chickens, and a couple cows and pigs along the way. Fresh meat just can't be beat.
    That's your personal reason which is fine but it doesn't address the central argument which is that it's unethical to eat meat.
    -------
    A problem consists of a conflict between two ideas. Problems are soluble.
    Fallacies: Ad hominem, Generalizing history to predetermine the future.

  15. #55
    Immortal callipygoustp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    That's your personal reason which is fine but it doesn't address the central argument which is that it's unethical to eat meat.
    There is no argument: eating meat is in fact not unethical.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by AryuFate View Post
    I’m glad we’ve come so far as to establish that animals feel pain and we should cause a painless death. Now we need to accept that we have no right to deprive animals of a basic need: existence. Imagine you were born a duck... wouldn’t you want to keep living? Let them die of natural causes, but don’t end their life early. It is cruel.
    Life is cruel. Get over it. Go stand in the rainforest. See how long until something tears you to shreds for No reason other than for fun.
    Quote Originally Posted by scorpious1109 View Post
    Why the hell would you wait till after you did this to confirm the mortality rate of such action?

  17. #57
    It is very interesting that each party can have its own very strong arguments, which means that the rejection of meat is more about personal inner feeling than about external consequences.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by zhero View Post

    have you seen the things lions do to their prey while they're still alive?
    Sure...but is it being "cruel"?

  19. #59
    Warchief smityx's Avatar
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    I'd be the guy who goes to a meat is murder protest showing videos of slaughter houses to gross people out and then stop on the way home to grab a burger. MMmmmmm we have the meats.



  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    Sure...but is it being "cruel"?
    Open to interpretation I guess. You can especially see it in outdoor cats. They often keep their prey alive to play with it, denying them death until they get bored. The prey no doubt suffers as its internal organs are sitting there exposed to the air, but is it cruelty? An argument could be made it's only considered cruel if the agitator knows what it's inflicting. So we'd have to prove that the cat knows what it's torturing is a creature capable of feeling pain, and also prove that the cat made a conscious decision to keep it alive to purposely make it suffer. How much of it is a deliberate choice, and how much is just what its instincts tell it to do?

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