Meat is murder

[Bodakane]

Are they torn to shreds at an early age?

No?

Then the fuck does anything you said have to do with fuck all?

lol, dying less than 3 months into your life is also pretty bad, no? I mean are fucking serious?

Your location is accurate.

[Sunseeker]

lol, dying less than 3 months into your life is also pretty bad, no? I mean are fucking serious?

Your location is accurate.

Did you know you were going to live to 50 when you were born?

No?

Was the chicken raised in a society where they educated their children about how long they could live and what they could achieve?

No?

Animals aren't people (rectangle is not a square yadda yadda). You can't act like they are and say I'm the one in denial.

[PC2]

I will continue to eat my delicious meat regardless of what people think. If they don't like it they can fuck off

I agree but if vegan-type people are wrong then we should give them reasons for why their arguments are bad, otherwise they will keep thinking they occupy some form of a high ground.

[Calfredd]

People are animals. Do you really think we are that special ?

Only in so much that we managed to develop self-awareness to the point that we're able to perform both great acts of kindness and genocides of various species, not out of hatred, but because they were a hindrance.

[Sunseeker]

People are animals. Do you really think we are that special ?

Well, we're sentient for starters...

So you're saying the chicken doesnt know what it's missing out on so it's not sad or worth caring about? You cant really apply that to all animals though, unless you think babies dying is not sad?

If you really can't tell the difference between chickens and humans I'm starting to understand the problem.

[Bodakane]

Did you know you were going to live to 50 when you were born?

No?

Was the chicken raised in a society where they educated their children about how long they could live and what they could achieve?

No?

Animals aren't people (rectangle is not a square yadda yadda). You can't act like they are and say I'm the one in denial.

I think a chance to live a life close to expectations is more important than how you die. Also ripped to shreds is not a normal thing either. Most predators kill their prey pretty quick. So you've set a weird benchmark and decided it was the ONLY thing that is important even though its not quite what you imply it to be. Also, the anger you're throwing is fucking stupid.

[some guy]

Shit. When did we get into a morrisey song?

[Bodakane]

Well, we're sentient for starters...


If you really can't tell the difference between chickens and humans I'm starting to understand the problem.

Most mammals and birds are sentient. Pigs dream. Cows mourn their dead. Etc.

[Bodakane]

I agree but if vegan-type people are wrong then we should give them reasons for why their arguments are bad, otherwise they will keep thinking they occupy some form of a high ground.

Being vegan isn't about occupying any high ground.

There's no argument you can make that can defeat a vegan's argument for being vegan. the facts are not on your side.

[Sunseeker]

I think a chance to live a life close to expectations is more important than how you die.

Whose expectations exactly?

Also ripped to shreds is not a normal thing either. Most predators kill their prey pretty quick. So you've set a weird benchmark and decided it was the ONLY thing that is important even though its not quite what you imply it to be. Also, the anger you're throwing is fucking stupid.

I used "ripped to shred" because that was Josuke's choice of words, no other reasons.

And the anger stems from your sort being as annoying as ever.

Most mammals and birds are sentient. Pigs dream. Cows mourn their dead. Etc.

We arent the only sentient animals on the planet though. Pretty far from it.

Well we're the only one with computers and moral debates about eating other animals.

I'm just seeing if it's really our intelligence you value or our genetics. Babies are dumb but we protect them.

Oh well you could have just asked. It's our intelligence.

We protect them because of biological compulsions and social training. Like animals we know they'll propagate our species, unlike animals we can concieve of the abstract idea that they might improve our species.

[Bodakane]

Whose expectations exactly?


I used "ripped to shred" because that was Josuke's choice of words, no other reasons.

And the anger stems from your sort being as annoying as ever.

I mean I wasn't rude to you in any size shape or form and you went full raging hate boner. Your desperation and flailing is pathetic.

The expectation is a standard life expectancy as I already said.

Also, here's the incredible stupidity of your argument about sentience.....

You compare people to animals to drive home the point of predator and prey then turn around without a single stitch of self reflection, and pretend we're above them because we have computers, blah, blah, blah. So which is it.....should we be like animals or are we above them?

[Nastard]

We are growing meat in labs and you can only think of total extinction.

Well shoot. I thought I was being so outrageously over the top with my "kill all aliens" comment that only the most dense of people wouldn't recognize it as joking.

Oh wait, that's exactly what happened.

[PC2]

Oh well you could have just asked. It's our intelligence.

We protect them because of biological compulsions and social training. Like animals we know they'll propagate our species, unlike animals we can concieve of the abstract idea that they might improve our species.

Yeah exactly, I think getting full human rights, such as the right to not be murdered and eaten is based on general intelligence. Non-human animals have intelligence but not general intelligence. Also I think what we call "sentience" actually comes from error-correction in a general intelligence so I'm skeptical of the claim that animals such as chimps, elephants and dolphins are sentient. Some people claim they are sentient but it's purely based on conjecture and not proof.

[Bodakane]

Yeah exactly, I think getting full human rights, such as the right to not be murdered and eaten is based on general intelligence. Non-human animals have intelligence but not general intelligence. Also I think what we call "sentience" actually comes from error-correction in a general intelligence so I'm skeptical of the claim that animals such as chimps, elephants and dolphins are sentient. Some people claim they are sentient but it's purely based on conjecture and not proof.

Basing rights on intelligence doesn't bode well for lots of people. Your concept of intelligence is likely off and biased towards whatever level your intelligence is. Imagine if Neil DeGrasse Tyson had the same idea about you for example?

I've seen a chicken walk back and forth in front of mower to make the person mowing go slow, because the mower was kicking out seeds and the other chickens were eating them. Then when the walker had enough they went to the group to eat and another took over the walking. If that mower was kicking out candy and we were talking 8 year old humans instead of chickens I doubt they would have formulated such a plan.

intelligence is relative, that is why vegans base their line around the being's ability to have a central nervous system that can feel pain. If they can feel pain then they can suffer and there's no need to cause suffering over something like flavor,

[Nastard]

Yeah exactly, I think getting full human rights, such as the right to not be murdered and eaten is based on general intelligence. Non-human animals have intelligence but not general intelligence. Also I think what we call "sentience" actually comes from error-correction in a general intelligence so I'm skeptical of the claim that animals such as chimps, elephants and dolphins are sentient. Some people claim they are sentient but it's purely based on conjecture and not proof.

I've always felt the only reason we assume other animals lack sentience on any level is so we don't feel as guilty when we fuck them over. We also make up shit like "goldfish only have 5 second memories" so we don't feel badly about leaving them in small glass bowls their entire lives. In the philosophies of animal rights, sentience is defined as the ability to feel pleasure or pain. Some people say dogs aren't sentient, but begin opening a can of wet food or take out the leash and watch them explode with excitement. They clearly get some degree pleasure out of that. You mentioned dolphins, but dolphins are one of the few animals on earth that we know will fuck each other purely for pleasure.

Other people define sentience as having a sense of "self." That's probably a good metric, but how do they routinely test that? They do the mirror test. They plop a mirror down in front of the animal and see how they react towards the reflection. If they think it's another animal, they're deemed not sentient. If they recognize it as themselves? Sentient. I find a lot of flaws in that standard and don't think it's a good unit of measurement. There could be a myriad of reasons why an animal wouldn't recognize its own reflection, but still have a sense of self.

A common scientific view today is that sentience is generated by neural structures and processes. Basically the central nervous system. It's thought that sponges, mesozoans and something else that I can't remember are the only animals that aren't sentient.

I guess what I'm getting at is that the science behind sentience is not exact because the "proof" you mentioned would only exist if we're able to jump inside an animals head and know what they're thinking. The best we've gotten is communicating via sign language with Koko the monkey. If I personally had to venture a guess, I'd say most mammals at a minimum are sentient albeit at a lesser degree than humans. What does that have to do with this conversation? Fuck if I know. Maybe the tastiest animals are the ones that are most self-aware? Hell, maybe cannibals are onto something.

[PC2]

There's no argument you can make that can defeat a vegan's argument for being vegan.

Except all arguments about right or wrong values and behaviors can either be justified with reasons or they can be countered by valid criticism. If nothing can defeat a vegans arguments and reasons then that means their argument is correct.

[Daedius]

"Don't have a right"... oh shut up. We're creatures of the earth just like any other on this planet, and we're all part of a food chain. When we die we're worm food, and they don't give a damn if you were vegan or not.

[Doctor Amadeus]

Meat is sustenance and a very valuable source. Although personally over the last couple of years I have moved away from Meat successfully and, I am working on cutting out all Meat and Animal byproduct as my body and mind get accumulated to it.

That being said, I am not doing any of it because I give a fuck about every single living breathing animal on this planet, in fact, I am kind of convinced people call themselves animal lovers typically aren't and often times full of shit about their sick cult like affection for animals.

I don't of course wish suffering or death on anyone or anything as per say, and one of the benefits of going vegan for me which is mostly based on converting to a healthy diet, I do like the fact it helps end the horrible conditions animals endure.


I'm uninterested in lectures, I don't need sanctimonious bullshit about farm animals are our friends, because like wildlife and everything else, NO they aren't, and a fair more amount actually only exist because we created them in the first place.

I can totally understand someone who feels opposite, and some situations it's because SOME really do care. But food shaming is silly.

[callipygoustp]

Gotta be honest: I really REALLY enjoyed the rare NY strip steak I had tonight. Delicious.

- - - Updated - - -

There was a thread recently about things you miss, in line with this thread: I really really REALLY fucking miss fresh meat. Decades ago I used to raise and kill my own chickens, and a couple cows and pigs along the way. Fresh meat just can't be beat.

[Kallisto]

I’m glad we’ve come so far as to establish that animals feel pain and we should cause a painless death. Now we need to accept that we have no right to deprive animals of a basic need: existence. Imagine you were born a duck... wouldn’t you want to keep living? Let them die of natural causes, but don’t end their life early. It is cruel.

Little problem here. Plant life and fungi have also shown that they feel pain. If we go by your own viewpoint nothing would be eaten because not enough life dies from natural causes to sustain even a fraction of the species.