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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Tesshin20 View Post
    Yes. Its my opinion. And I would go into more detail on this subject, but was afraid to make the post too long. So thanks for adressing this issue a second time.

    I disagree with the statement "Not having borrowed power etc" because we did. Even though not as much as recently, the concept is not foreign to us and we didn't have any problems leaving behind set bonuses or being upset that abilities from set bonuses and legendaries wasn't permanent.
    That's correct. I wrote "in the Legion sense" to distinquish the new style of borrowed power (meaning you lose actual abilities, some of which are vital for your spec, and many passives) from "old" borrowed powers (such as gear, single legendaries and tier sets), which never had vital importance.
    Borrowed power holds some merit in the sense that its the foundation of the expansion features for both BFA and Legion. Legion is considered even among the most criticial people to be a good expansion. BFA was a good expansion as well (Again another subjective opinion). You can't really point to anything that shows that borrowed power is harmful for the game in terms of subscribers or anything like that.
    In my subjective opinion both Legion and BfA were only tolerable with the last patch. They made many things better than previous expansions but had also worse sides in aspects of the game that were important to me. Those problems only got fixed with the .3 patches, which was the point at which I liked to play them. And yeah, I can't point to subscription numbers (obivously), but the success of classic shows to me, that some aspect of modern WoW has really gone missing.

    So my argument for borrowed power is that it serves as a vehicle to introduce new abilities and mechanics to play with in the theme of expansion and you can integrate them into the lore and the story of the expansion as well. Which they did with artifacts, azerite and covenants. You can't do the same with a new talent. This is the strength of the system. Another strength is that seems you have tied the borrowed power with the lore and events of a specific expansion, you can justify removing them for a new expanion to introduce something new without causing it to bloat into the new expansion.
    Of course, Borrowed Power have some Merit. But there's downsides as well, which became incredibly apparent at the beginning of BfA, where you lost so much power while leveling, that the entire process felt like torture. Whats the point of leveling up if you become weaker? Also character development has practically stopped after MoP. Since WoW is an MMORPG on paper, character development is important. In WoD you only lost power and beginning with Legion you did no longer develop your character, but began to develop Objects (Artifact weapons, HoA).
    You see, there's no real right or wrong here. You might like some things I don't and vice-versa. And that's perfectly fine. If we didn't have borrowed power systems you would be the one complaining about it missing. I just don't like that you don't accept other opinions on this topic. Everyone's preferences are different and having differences is vital for any discourse.

    Compared system that gives power and systems that produces content aren't comparable. The negatives of adding more systems doesn't relate to a system like Mythic+. You could make the comparison even worse by bringing in allied races. You can't simply compare them.
    But isn't this the complaint you complain about? That Blizzards keeps adding new systems instead of fixing old ones?

    I am fully aware of the possitiblity of my opinions not being right, thats why I want to discuss them to see if they hold any validity. I allready think they do.
    My having issues with groups of people does not make me not understand different opinions though. I also explained the relevance of being autistic and the reason for writing this point in my post as well.
    Sorry if I misunderstood you, but your post did not make this very obvious to me. And the other poster here on this forum made it even less obvious.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tesshin20 View Post
    Where did I state my opinions was an objective fact for everyone. If I did that, that was not my intention.

    Also if I am not able to understand other peoples opinions, it might be that they haven't properly explained them.
    After I read your longer answer to me I understand that now. But @Mackwiss did not help your case here.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Here we go again. Another thread about denigrating people who are critical of the game as either mentally ill/conspiratorial/addicts/racists/sexists etc. because it's entirely impossible that people just want the game to be better than it currently is.

    I honestly don't get the point of these threads. You make it out to be as if the game's only problem is people making up problems and if they'd be quiet everything would be perfect. If you're completely happy with the game and the direction it's headed then why do you feel the need to engage in these discussions about it that are (according to you) steeped in negativity/hate/whatever only to complain about it afterwards?

    Also in regards to some other points you made:

    • Just because some people who are unable to properly articulate themselves parrot opinions they got from smarter people doesn't necessarily mean their positions are wrong or unjustified.
    • The game's balance is certainly not at a high point in time. You have classes like mistweaver who have been at the bottom for like 6 consecutive raid tiers and PvP in BfA has probably been the worst in all of WoW's history with all of the weird metas (overtuned Azerite at the start of season 1, tank trinket meta, corruption oneshot meta etc.) and also incredibly low participation as a result of this.
    • You equating "borrowed power" with gear/legendaries etc. is also pretty disingenuous since people obviously mean borrowed power as expansion defining features that draw away attention from class design, traditional gear progression etc. when they use the term. Borrowed power systems create a bunch of new problems with every expansion and the only real thing they've got going for them is that they mix up gameplay for a bit.
    • Also keeping classes in a permanently pruned state with borrowed power sprinkled on top is hardly a reasonable response to people being dissatisfied with pruning. This is a very paradoxical argument.
    I haven't discarded every opinion as total lunacy. My point is that I see a trend on these forums and comment section. Now trends doesn't imply that everyone behave in a specific way, its about adressing tendencies.

    Well the point is to push back against the negativity which I think is unfounded or based on bad or no proper arguments. I have an equally good justification for doing that, as people who make the complaining threads I am refering to. I assume this forums is not only for the people what want to complain about the game, but also for people that wants to complain about the complaining, which I intend to do from time to time.

    Also I like to visit forums for the obvious reasons of talking about the game. But I find myself not able to do so because of the "pollution" of negativity. And I must again state that not all complains are invalid, some are sound when they are followed up by actual arguments based on actual data and reasoning behind them.

    To your list:

    * I agree. I didn't claim otherwise either. I think I even said just that. Its a simple observation on my part that people repeat the complains by youtubers word for word using the same vocabulary implies that they have just copied that specific opinion, rather than coming to the conclusion themselves. Again, this might not be the case all the time. But it does happen frequently.

    * When was balance at better state? Beign part of this forum for 10 years and official wow forums for 15 I read complains about balance all the time and never have people been happy with it. I am fully aware of the issues with Monks, and they are at the bottom, and I hope it gets adressed. Though, it doesn't make monks useless. They do damage and bring some utility. You basis for evaluating BFA comes from the premise that things must be balanced. I simply don't hold that opinion any more. Of course, extremes have to be dealt with, which was done with shadowpriest, protection warriors and etc. The developers time is best served by making interesting and fun classes, balancing contradicts that (most of the time) as balancing usually tends to make it more similar to other classes. For example, every class now has a personal cd, a 3 min raid cd, an interrupt, a snare and a movement increase is a result of balancing, though class identity suffers, which in my subjective opinion is far more important.

    *Well the premise again is that borrowed power create problems and I do see that perspective if you think that everything must be balanced. If your main concern is balance then Twilight Devastation is a problem. If not, you don't mind it. I also mentioned that artifact weapons and set bonuses in vanilla are not the same. But they are similar in concept that they are both borrowed power. My point equating them is prove that we are not unfamiliar with having power for just a raid tier or an expansion and my issue is that somehow this is a huge problem now. I simply don't see it as I don't think they introduce problems for the majority of the playerbase. I do accept that corruption is huge issue if you are a competetive arena player.

    *I see that. However its easier to developers to justify the removing of borrowed power that belongs thematicly to an expansion, rather than the justification of removing class abilities. There are no way to justify that other than button bloat, which is a valid concern if taken to the extremes for sure.

  3. #23
    Bloodsail Admiral Dawnseven's Avatar
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    Hi OP. Not going to say you're wrong. Actually I'm with Xilurm here...

    Quote Originally Posted by Xilurm View Post
    Welcome to how I felt 10 years ago everytime I saw a complaing thread. Now I've accepted it, and either join the argument or ignore it and move on.
    After a while you just learn not to bother reading posts from certain people (a mental Ignore List if you will). The actual game isn't even the point of two-thirds of the posts anyway. There are a lot of people that just have to try to have the last word (about anything), people that will attack just based on semantics, and in general just a lot of big dick swingers. If I don't catch up on some threads and say "whatever..." in my head about 50 times, it's a good day.

    Are there things I don't like about the game? Sure. On rare occasions I've brought things up (10 years on MMOC and 1,100 posts -- I'm not a big poster), but at the same time I've been playing now about 5 days a week, anywhere from 10 to 40 hours a week, depending on what's going on, since the summer of '06. 14 years (sheesh). Clearly the game isn't a piece of crap. But yeah, that me, and my opinion, and nobody gives a crap about that, which is perfectly fine and their right. "Whatever..."

    I guess the point is to try not to let it bring you down. Be more judicious in what you spend time reading, and understand that complaining, correcting others, belitting others, etc. is how some people behave and you can't control it, you just have to navigate around it.

  4. #24
    First off, your post in itself is biased.

    You claim that:
    Evaluating the common complaints recently I find that 90% of the time they have no real proper reasoned arguments behind them and frankly if I might be so bold, say that they seem coming from posters that haven't made up their own arguments, but following a script.
    Like, re read that sentence, you flat out claim here that the vast majority of people who criticize the current design of WoW are just straight making shit up.
    Not only that, you also claim that those very BS arguments are just being parroted by them because some content creator voiced them earlier.
    Which also a big claim, because i think some people at least spend at least some thought on the arguments presented by the content creator, if they are 90% of time (as you claim) just straight BS, i think more and more people will realize that they are talking out of their ass.

    The truth that you ignore here is that those people are on occassion right, not always, but sometimes and like some people lean in the direction of "everything the devs do is wrong" you just flip into the complete opposite direction and go "90% of time, they are talking bullshit".


    Furthermore, in my opinion the amount of complaining is increasing because the design of WoW has taken on a new direction in the last 4-6 years.

    Previously, we get some new content, maybe a new game mode, some new spells, class changes, maybe new Profession / Class, that's your average WoW expansion up until WoD / Legion.
    Not some brand new system that tied in player power upon which a sizeable chunk of gameplay of the current expansion will stand upon, which every time came out in an unfinished state where players had to wait months for it be fixed.

    Not to mention that elements have been introduced into the game that in the opinion of some people do not fit into WoW, Infinite scaling content (M+), "infinite" generating content (Island Expedition / Torghast).
    Then there is the locking a significant amount of player power behind grinds (AP in Legion / BfA, Essences, Legion Legendaries, etc.).

    Back in TBC / Wotlk / Cata, you leveled to max level, then started doing dungeons / Professions / Reputation to get gear, look for aveneues where you have some bad pieces on to fill and tackled that content where it came from.
    A lot more simpler compared the modern game - while at the same time the devs however love to use the "it might confuse the players" as an argument to not change anything midexpansion, while reinventing the wheel at the launch of every expansion.

    Titanforging deserves a special mention here, the precursor of Titanforging was introduced in 2013, and people kept complaining about for 7(!) years until Blizzard at least attempted another system, which then proceeded to break the game (i'm paraphrasing Ion here).
    Titanforging was one the longstanding issues that people had with the game and the criticism for it did not go away over the years (which i assume Blizzard hoped for) and if it takes that long for Blizzard to act on that criticism, then said "complaining" is justified.

    People used to complain about very simple stuff in WoW, Class balance, casualization, whatever, but the current criticism towards has become a lot more fundamental, hence it has increased and dismissing that as unjustified "90% of the time" is utterly nonsensical looking at the track record of Blizzard in Legion & BfA.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2020-09-26 at 12:54 PM.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Tesshin20 View Post
    The newest thing to complain about now is what has been refered to as "borrowed power". This has always existed, though at a lesser extent. We used to borrow legendaries and set bonuses from tier sets, leaving them behind as we went into new content. The argument is that Blizzard should stop making these systems and move them into talents and abilities and even spend more time working on balance.

    These systems are a solution to a problem which was rightly complained about. Introducing new talents and abilities over several expansions gave us so many abilities that Blizzard decided to prune them. And we know how that was recieved. Making new abilities based on the theme of the expansion is a way to solve this issue. When it comes to balance then I think according to looking at warcraftlogs, the game has never been more balanced. But people are so obsessed with being optimal in every situation and never being at an disadvantage that even the 3% difference is unbearable to some people.
    I am exaggurating a bit, but you have to see that this is not a good solution. Borrowed power is the best annoying solution compared to the alternatives.
    I see your points and I think some of them are more valid than others.
    Regarding Tier sets and old legendaries. From my PoV they can hardly be honestly compared to borrowed power in legion and onwards. A cool little extra bonus on your gear or a legendary that's relevant for a patch or two is leaps and bounds less complex than the expansion long grinds and customizable systems since legion.
    I wouldn't even really call tier sets "Borrowed power" they are more like a minor bonus.

    Yeah I feel this way too, it was getting a little out of hand with all the abilities however classes/specs are losing more and more identity because everything needs to be "expansion themed" and borrowed. instead of class themed and the best of the best worked into the class. It just goes away or becomes a talent and something else gets trashed. Legion artifacts were cool because the artifact abilities were actually designed for your spec not for the expansion. Then came BFA with its ass-erite and corruptions that were seemingly just randomly generated at blizzard before release, and had nothing to do with your class or spec. After all the pruning and the new "borrowed power" idea, specializations and classes feels hollow and incomplete, more so than others. now I agree that blizzard can't just keep giving out new abilities over and over again, but currently something new replaces something old and the old is discarded. it seems like blizzard has their eyes tunnelvisioned on these borrowed power systems and the classes themselves see very little attention in comparison.

    Starting with classes and their specializations might be a better place before trying to band-aid fix what doesn't work with borrowed power.
    Borrowed power as a fix for broken stuff feelsbadman, it should be icing on the cake, not filling holes in the cake.
    Last edited by Crutos; 2020-09-26 at 12:02 PM.

  6. #26
    trouble with online people is that they assume everyone is just like them and they asume that they are normal / standard , if you are different they can't play with you .

  7. #27
    I must also say that when I talk about complain that holds no water I refer to complaining like "Shadowlands is allready a dumpsterfire!" "The game is totally broken". To me this is simply pollution. Ok why to you think this way? What is the reason? What is your solution to this problem? What are the alternatives and are they better? Etc.

    Also, when adressing the borrowed power issue, I picked that issue first since to me the opinions against borrowed power seems to come without thinking about the alternatives, at least that's the impression I get when people bash borrowed power without even mentioning why any alternative would work better than borrowed power is doing. Why would scrapping borrowed power and giving you permanent abilities and talents be better. It has to be said that this was tried in BC and WOTLK and even though fun at the time, it ended up being removed in Warlords and BFA. I just don't want to see that again, and then I see borrowed power as a better solution. If there is a middle ground here I am not aware, then feel free to enlighten me.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Tesshin20 View Post
    I know if I get any response to this it will most likely be a lot of backfire because I am basically attacking a portion of the community, however this has starting to get very frustrating. I have been thinking a lot on this subject lately and I first thought it would come nothing good out of adressing it, but increasingly I feel the need to push back against this sillyness. I love this game so much and I would love to come on here to talk about awesome things, but I find myself very distracted by negativity which doesn't hold any water, most of the time.

    So what am I really talking about? Well first of I need to mention that have high-functioning autism and that is somewhat relevant because I despise people as a collective (not in their individual components of course, I love spending time with certain people). Watching people from a distance behaving in groups is very interesting to me and something that always worries me. People have a tendency to rally behind negativity, not just in gaming but in general. Thats why we have riots and people march. Though some marches have good intentions and outcomes.

    There is also this concept of content creators and the fact that negativity and controversy attract more attention. This feeds into this feedback loop which is very addicting to content creators. This is a huge factor of what is driving this negativity and the complaining and its speaks against its validity. Also, coming with negativity or critisism in general, not just regarding to World of Warcraft, have a tendency to make you appear as a more intelligent and sophisticated person. If you are complaining about something, you show that you have put effort into things, analyzed and made up your intelligent conclusion. Though this is hardly the case. On the other hand, if you are positive about something, you are just this somewhat ignorant gullable person who accepts anything at face value and probably is very forgiving and naive. I would say that is most often not the case at all.

    So back to my autism thingy and how I don't like people in groups. When I see people even in a minority behave in a certain way I have a tendency to go the opposite direction and wonder why they are behaving in such a way. What is the reason behind it.

    Evaluating the common complaints recently I find that 90% of the time they have no real proper reasoned arguments behind them and frankly if I might be so bold, say that they seem coming from posters that haven't made up their own arguments, but following a script. The sentences are formulated the same way and if there are more arguments behind it, it sounds equally the same. Now, that itself doesn't make an argument wrong. People could be posting from a script like mindless bots and come with accurate information. This just doesn't seem to be the case about issues related to recent issues people discuss.

    Now, I know its provoking for me to reduce most opinions down to people just parroting others statements or like posting from a script, however that is how it appears to me and I am still open to a nuanced discussion around critisism from people who have put a lot of thought into their own arguments. However that is not what I see most of the time, though it happens from time to time.

    Also I can watch a youtube or streamer with a lot of followers, and lo and behold, the next day I see people write exactly the same complaint, word for word in comment section on youtube and even here. I even saw many comments yesterday on Youtube to a specific video adressing class balance and people were writing "Oh I was so hyped for Shadowlands, but after watching this, I can't play this expansion after all" People will ACTUALLY accept a youtubers subjective opinion on something as gospel instead of trying the game for themselves.

    I am going to adress the most recent complaint, but there are many of them like "BFA was garbage", "Covenants will fail". I would say both these statements are exaggurated and false. And the reality is far more nuanced. So I will only adress the most recent one for now.

    The newest thing to complain about now is what has been refered to as "borrowed power". This has always existed, though at a lesser extent. We used to borrow legendaries and set bonuses from tier sets, leaving them behind as we went into new content. The argument is that Blizzard should stop making these systems and move them into talents and abilities and even spend more time working on balance.

    These systems are a solution to a problem which was rightly complained about. Introducing new talents and abilities over several expansions gave us so many abilities that Blizzard decided to prune them. And we know how that was recieved. Making new abilities based on the theme of the expansion is a way to solve this issue. When it comes to balance then I think according to looking at warcraftlogs, the game has never been more balanced. But people are so obsessed with being optimal in every situation and never being at an disadvantage that even the 3% difference is unbearable to some people.

    Another argument is that Blizzard should keep the systems going into new expansions. If that was a good idea then in Shadowlands we would spend 90% of our time in our garrisons, with legendary ring from MoP, having artifact weapons with 2000 Concordance of Legionfall, Azerite Armor with 6 rings, 20 legendary essences, 8 corruption effects, legendary cloak, covenant abilities, souldbinds, crafted legendaries having 90 different passive effects and procs going of all the time and you become this death machine with 140% haste all the time.

    I am exaggurating a bit, but you have to see that this is not a good solution. Borrowed power is the best annoying solution compared to the alternatives.

    Also I feel more and more sympathy for the developers of the game. They spend 10 hours a day or so, underpaid under bad conditions working on systems they now they must change in the future anyway because feedback from the usual suspects dictates so, just to come home and trying to connect with the community and they read posts that they should be fired and don't care about the game. It's a miracle we even have a game to log into at this point.

    I will stop there for now and apologize this was a bit long. I have a lot more to say about this and since I have basically offended half of the people that post here, I guess I will have the opportunity to adress more issues if this is turning out something people are willing to discuss.
    I ain't reading all that
    I'm happy for you tho
    or sorry that happened

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Dawnseven View Post
    Hi OP. Not going to say you're wrong. Actually I'm with Xilurm here...



    After a while you just learn not to bother reading posts from certain people (a mental Ignore List if you will). The actual game isn't even the point of two-thirds of the posts anyway. There are a lot of people that just have to try to have the last word (about anything), people that will attack just based on semantics, and in general just a lot of big dick swingers. If I don't catch up on some threads and say "whatever..." in my head about 50 times, it's a good day.

    Are there things I don't like about the game? Sure. On rare occasions I've brought things up (10 years on MMOC and 1,100 posts -- I'm not a big poster), but at the same time I've been playing now about 5 days a week, anywhere from 10 to 40 hours a week, depending on what's going on, since the summer of '06. 14 years (sheesh). Clearly the game isn't a piece of crap. But yeah, that me, and my opinion, and nobody gives a crap about that, which is perfectly fine and their right. "Whatever..."

    I guess the point is to try not to let it bring you down. Be more judicious in what you spend time reading, and understand that complaining, correcting others, belitting others, etc. is how some people behave and you can't control it, you just have to navigate around it.
    Thanks for this. Good advice. I have actually thought to myself that the best way to enjoy the game is to stay away from forums and just spend more time inside the game.

  10. #30
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    "NOOOOO, stop calling the clearly badly designed systems bad! Not in my favorite game!"


    People who are constantly complain about people criticizing the aspects of the game are way more toxic and annoying. Literally unbearable behavior. You just better stop reading the forums if you hate critique.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Crutos View Post
    I see your points and I think some of them are more valid than others.
    Regarding Tier sets and old legendaries. From my PoV they can hardly be honestly compared to borrowed power in legion and onwards. A cool little extra bonus on your gear or a legendary that's relevant for a patch or two is leaps and bounds less complex than the expansion long grinds and customizable systems since legion.
    I wouldn't even really call tier sets "Borrowed power" they are more like a minor bonus.

    Yeah I feel this way too, it was getting a little out of hand with all the abilities however classes/specs are losing more and more identity because everything needs to be "expansion themed" and borrowed. instead of class themed and the best of the best worked into the class. It just goes away or becomes a talent and something else gets trashed. Legion artifacts were cool because the artifact abilities were actually designed for your spec not for the expansion. Then came BFA with its ass-erite and corruptions that were seemingly just randomly generated at blizzard before release, and had nothing to do with your class or spec. After all the pruning and the new "borrowed power" idea, specializations and classes feels hollow and incomplete, more so than others. now I agree that blizzard can't just keep giving out new abilities over and over again, but currently something new replaces something old and the old is discarded. it seems like blizzard has their eyes tunnelvisioned on these borrowed power systems and the classes themselves see very little attention in comparison.

    Starting with classes and their specializations might be a better place before trying to band-aid fix what doesn't work with borrowed power.
    Borrowed power as a fix for broken stuff feelsbadman, it should be icing on the cake, not filling holes in the cake.
    Thanks for proper response. I totally see the argument that azerite and etc not class themed, and class themed abilities are more appealing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Harbour View Post
    "NOOOOO, stop calling the clearly badly designed systems bad! Not in my favorite game!"


    People who are constantly complain about people criticizing the aspects of the game are way more toxic and annoying. Literally unbearable behavior. You just better stop reading the forums if you hate critique.
    You do see that your post is entirely circular right?

  12. #32
    I feel like this thread was a waste of my time And I would like to speak to a manager
    Non nobis Domine, non nobis, sed nomini tuo da gloriam

  13. #33
    Here we go again, the usual person that isn't use to hearing different opinions irl all the time. So as soonests they experience this online. BOOM! let's write a huge wall of text about how much i ain't used to this and people should be more civil.

    If you don't like complaining or strong opinions in general, why are you reading gaming forums. They are full of them every single day. Nothing about that will ever change.

  14. #34
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamais View Post
    You don't need to apologize OP.

    The majority of posters on this godawful forum are bitter haters, .....

    As for the the actual ''feedback'' on the game .......

    This community ....
    Always refreshing to put things into perspective: scroll to the bottom of https://www.mmo-champion.com/forum.php - for months and months, there are usually only about 250 ppl online that can actually post. And as (former) mods have pointed out...it is the same handful of ppl making negative threads and backslapping each other.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Tesshin20 View Post
    I know if I get any response to this it will most likely be a lot of backfire because I am basically attacking a portion of the community, however this has starting to get very frustrating. I have been thinking a lot on this subject lately and I first thought it would come nothing good out of adressing it, but increasingly I feel the need to push back against this sillyness. I love this game so much and I would love to come on here to talk about awesome things, but I find myself very distracted by negativity which doesn't hold any water, most of the time.

    So what am I really talking about? Well first of I need to mention that have high-functioning autism and that is somewhat relevant because I despise people as a collective (not in their individual components of course, I love spending time with certain people). Watching people from a distance behaving in groups is very interesting to me and something that always worries me. People have a tendency to rally behind negativity, not just in gaming but in general. Thats why we have riots and people march. Though some marches have good intentions and outcomes.

    There is also this concept of content creators and the fact that negativity and controversy attract more attention. This feeds into this feedback loop which is very addicting to content creators. This is a huge factor of what is driving this negativity and the complaining and its speaks against its validity. Also, coming with negativity or critisism in general, not just regarding to World of Warcraft, have a tendency to make you appear as a more intelligent and sophisticated person. If you are complaining about something, you show that you have put effort into things, analyzed and made up your intelligent conclusion. Though this is hardly the case. On the other hand, if you are positive about something, you are just this somewhat ignorant gullable person who accepts anything at face value and probably is very forgiving and naive. I would say that is most often not the case at all.

    So back to my autism thingy and how I don't like people in groups. When I see people even in a minority behave in a certain way I have a tendency to go the opposite direction and wonder why they are behaving in such a way. What is the reason behind it.

    Evaluating the common complaints recently I find that 90% of the time they have no real proper reasoned arguments behind them and frankly if I might be so bold, say that they seem coming from posters that haven't made up their own arguments, but following a script. The sentences are formulated the same way and if there are more arguments behind it, it sounds equally the same. Now, that itself doesn't make an argument wrong. People could be posting from a script like mindless bots and come with accurate information. This just doesn't seem to be the case about issues related to recent issues people discuss.

    Now, I know its provoking for me to reduce most opinions down to people just parroting others statements or like posting from a script, however that is how it appears to me and I am still open to a nuanced discussion around critisism from people who have put a lot of thought into their own arguments. However that is not what I see most of the time, though it happens from time to time.

    Also I can watch a youtube or streamer with a lot of followers, and lo and behold, the next day I see people write exactly the same complaint, word for word in comment section on youtube and even here. I even saw many comments yesterday on Youtube to a specific video adressing class balance and people were writing "Oh I was so hyped for Shadowlands, but after watching this, I can't play this expansion after all" People will ACTUALLY accept a youtubers subjective opinion on something as gospel instead of trying the game for themselves.

    I am going to adress the most recent complaint, but there are many of them like "BFA was garbage", "Covenants will fail". I would say both these statements are exaggurated and false. And the reality is far more nuanced. So I will only adress the most recent one for now.

    The newest thing to complain about now is what has been refered to as "borrowed power". This has always existed, though at a lesser extent. We used to borrow legendaries and set bonuses from tier sets, leaving them behind as we went into new content. The argument is that Blizzard should stop making these systems and move them into talents and abilities and even spend more time working on balance.

    These systems are a solution to a problem which was rightly complained about. Introducing new talents and abilities over several expansions gave us so many abilities that Blizzard decided to prune them. And we know how that was recieved. Making new abilities based on the theme of the expansion is a way to solve this issue. When it comes to balance then I think according to looking at warcraftlogs, the game has never been more balanced. But people are so obsessed with being optimal in every situation and never being at an disadvantage that even the 3% difference is unbearable to some people.

    Another argument is that Blizzard should keep the systems going into new expansions. If that was a good idea then in Shadowlands we would spend 90% of our time in our garrisons, with legendary ring from MoP, having artifact weapons with 2000 Concordance of Legionfall, Azerite Armor with 6 rings, 20 legendary essences, 8 corruption effects, legendary cloak, covenant abilities, souldbinds, crafted legendaries having 90 different passive effects and procs going of all the time and you become this death machine with 140% haste all the time.

    I am exaggurating a bit, but you have to see that this is not a good solution. Borrowed power is the best annoying solution compared to the alternatives.

    Also I feel more and more sympathy for the developers of the game. They spend 10 hours a day or so, underpaid under bad conditions working on systems they now they must change in the future anyway because feedback from the usual suspects dictates so, just to come home and trying to connect with the community and they read posts that they should be fired and don't care about the game. It's a miracle we even have a game to log into at this point.

    I will stop there for now and apologize this was a bit long. I have a lot more to say about this and since I have basically offended half of the people that post here, I guess I will have the opportunity to adress more issues if this is turning out something people are willing to discuss.
    Great post. I agree wholeheartedly. Thanks for posting this. Sadly, the truth in your post will only prove itself in the replies. You didn't complain about a common great enemy. You didn't invite others to join in on your holy crusade against grave injustice. Nobody can take your post and start a vendetta complaining on every possible forum and media how Blizzard or politician X or force majeure Y is ruining their life, so your post will largely be ignored or even ridiculed. But my hat is off to you regardless for saying what needed to be said.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Izzyfurious View Post
    Here we go again, the usual person that isn't use to hearing different opinions irl all the time. So as soonests they experience this online. BOOM! let's write a huge wall of text about how much i ain't used to this and people should be more civil.

    If you don't like complaining or strong opinions in general, why are you reading gaming forums. They are full of them every single day. Nothing about that will ever change.
    I don't really get responses like this. They literally make no sense to me.

    1. What makes you think I am not used to hearing different opinions? That I am pointing out that people use bad arguments or no arguments at all for the sake of being negative, does imply how that I am not used different opinions?

    2. Are you advocating some sort of safe space where people are able to complain all they want, yet you don't want to see any complains in return of those people? If someone view other peoples behaviour somewhat irrational, you must except other people to point this out. No?

    3. This was explained by in the first post I made. I think negativity for the sake of negativy should be pushed back against, as I regard it as not constructive at all for anybody. I am not trying to take away people choice of complaining about anything, I just point at the flaws in those arguments or the lack of arguments.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Always refreshing to put things into perspective: scroll to the bottom of https://www.mmo-champion.com/forum.php - for months and months, there are usually only about 250 ppl online that can actually post. And as (former) mods have pointed out...it is the same handful of ppl making negative threads and backslapping each other.
    I read this as well at the same place you pointed out. "Most users ever online was 253,388, 2014-04-08 at 04:12 PM." So 250k online at the same time in 2014. And now 2k on a saturday. Seems like this place was a bit more popular before.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by sensei- View Post
    Great post. I agree wholeheartedly. Thanks for posting this. Sadly, the truth in your post will only prove itself in the replies. You didn't complain about a common great enemy. You didn't invite others to join in on your holy crusade against grave injustice. Nobody can take your post and start a vendetta complaining on every possible forum and media how Blizzard or politician X or force majeure Y is ruining their life, so your post will largely be ignored or even ridiculed. But my hat is off to you regardless for saying what needed to be said.
    Thank you. Have a good day sir

  17. #37
    The Patient LuckyOne's Avatar
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    This forum has a lot of armchair devs that only think from the wallpaper to the wall, conspiracy theorists and people with extreme cynicism.

    And these guys are bored right now until the prepatch comes..

    So yeah, don't sweat it, they'll be busy feeding their addiction soon enough.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tesshin20 View Post
    I know if I get any response to this it will most likely be a lot of backfire because I am basically attacking a portion of the community, however this has starting to get very frustrating. I have been thinking a lot on this subject lately and I first thought it would come nothing good out of adressing it, but increasingly I feel the need to push back against this sillyness. I love this game so much and I would love to come on here to talk about awesome things, but I find myself very distracted by negativity which doesn't hold any water, most of the time.

    So what am I really talking about? Well first of I need to mention that have high-functioning autism and that is somewhat relevant because I despise people as a collective (not in their individual components of course, I love spending time with certain people). Watching people from a distance behaving in groups is very interesting to me and something that always worries me. People have a tendency to rally behind negativity, not just in gaming but in general. Thats why we have riots and people march. Though some marches have good intentions and outcomes.

    There is also this concept of content creators and the fact that negativity and controversy attract more attention. This feeds into this feedback loop which is very addicting to content creators. This is a huge factor of what is driving this negativity and the complaining and its speaks against its validity. Also, coming with negativity or critisism in general, not just regarding to World of Warcraft, have a tendency to make you appear as a more intelligent and sophisticated person. If you are complaining about something, you show that you have put effort into things, analyzed and made up your intelligent conclusion. Though this is hardly the case. On the other hand, if you are positive about something, you are just this somewhat ignorant gullable person who accepts anything at face value and probably is very forgiving and naive. I would say that is most often not the case at all.

    So back to my autism thingy and how I don't like people in groups. When I see people even in a minority behave in a certain way I have a tendency to go the opposite direction and wonder why they are behaving in such a way. What is the reason behind it.

    Evaluating the common complaints recently I find that 90% of the time they have no real proper reasoned arguments behind them and frankly if I might be so bold, say that they seem coming from posters that haven't made up their own arguments, but following a script. The sentences are formulated the same way and if there are more arguments behind it, it sounds equally the same. Now, that itself doesn't make an argument wrong. People could be posting from a script like mindless bots and come with accurate information. This just doesn't seem to be the case about issues related to recent issues people discuss.

    Now, I know its provoking for me to reduce most opinions down to people just parroting others statements or like posting from a script, however that is how it appears to me and I am still open to a nuanced discussion around critisism from people who have put a lot of thought into their own arguments. However that is not what I see most of the time, though it happens from time to time.

    Also I can watch a youtube or streamer with a lot of followers, and lo and behold, the next day I see people write exactly the same complaint, word for word in comment section on youtube and even here. I even saw many comments yesterday on Youtube to a specific video adressing class balance and people were writing "Oh I was so hyped for Shadowlands, but after watching this, I can't play this expansion after all" People will ACTUALLY accept a youtubers subjective opinion on something as gospel instead of trying the game for themselves.

    I am going to adress the most recent complaint, but there are many of them like "BFA was garbage", "Covenants will fail". I would say both these statements are exaggurated and false. And the reality is far more nuanced. So I will only adress the most recent one for now.

    The newest thing to complain about now is what has been refered to as "borrowed power". This has always existed, though at a lesser extent. We used to borrow legendaries and set bonuses from tier sets, leaving them behind as we went into new content. The argument is that Blizzard should stop making these systems and move them into talents and abilities and even spend more time working on balance.

    These systems are a solution to a problem which was rightly complained about. Introducing new talents and abilities over several expansions gave us so many abilities that Blizzard decided to prune them. And we know how that was recieved. Making new abilities based on the theme of the expansion is a way to solve this issue. When it comes to balance then I think according to looking at warcraftlogs, the game has never been more balanced. But people are so obsessed with being optimal in every situation and never being at an disadvantage that even the 3% difference is unbearable to some people.

    Another argument is that Blizzard should keep the systems going into new expansions. If that was a good idea then in Shadowlands we would spend 90% of our time in our garrisons, with legendary ring from MoP, having artifact weapons with 2000 Concordance of Legionfall, Azerite Armor with 6 rings, 20 legendary essences, 8 corruption effects, legendary cloak, covenant abilities, souldbinds, crafted legendaries having 90 different passive effects and procs going of all the time and you become this death machine with 140% haste all the time.

    I am exaggurating a bit, but you have to see that this is not a good solution. Borrowed power is the best annoying solution compared to the alternatives.

    Also I feel more and more sympathy for the developers of the game. They spend 10 hours a day or so, underpaid under bad conditions working on systems they now they must change in the future anyway because feedback from the usual suspects dictates so, just to come home and trying to connect with the community and they read posts that they should be fired and don't care about the game. It's a miracle we even have a game to log into at this point.

    I will stop there for now and apologize this was a bit long. I have a lot more to say about this and since I have basically offended half of the people that post here, I guess I will have the opportunity to adress more issues if this is turning out something people are willing to discuss.
    holy mother of wall of text
    You don't understand. Having an unpayed full time job that no one appreciates is the magic of classic.

    It's about the journey. The journey into depression. The journey of running a daycare full of middle-aged alcoholics ignoring their SOs and avoiding social engagements to fulfill something they wanted 15 years ago before everyone realized it's not hard at all.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Tesshin20 View Post
    I know if I get any response to this it will most likely be a lot of backfire because I am basically attacking a portion of the community, however this has starting to get very frustrating. I have been thinking a lot on this subject lately and I first thought it would come nothing good out of adressing it, but increasingly I feel the need to push back against this sillyness. I love this game so much and I would love to come on here to talk about awesome things, but I find myself very distracted by negativity which doesn't hold any water, most of the time.
    I think you have A LOT of good arguments here but in my opinion you get it a bit "wrong" on some specific subjects:

    1) The class balance video
    I even saw many comments yesterday on Youtube to a specific video adressing class balance and people were writing "Oh I was so hyped for Shadowlands, but after watching this, I can't play this expansion after all" People will ACTUALLY accept a youtubers subjective opinion on something as gospel instead of trying the game for themselves.
    I think I know what video you are referring to. In this video the youtuber was as example complaining about Blizzard's lack of response to the community. On the monk forum a lot of people had use large potions of their time to give Blizzard very valuable feedback on bugs etc. However it took Blizzard 4 months to simply respond to the monk thread. I do believe this is a very valid point of complaint when Blizzard themselves have advocated that they would listen and interact more with the community. People are basically helping Blizzard improving the game for free and all they want in return is just a little bit of respons and gratitude. I think that is fair.

    It is also very true that Blizzard did very little class tuning for the entirety of BFA and that certain specs were basically left in the dust for the whole expansion while others specs where demi-gods for the whole time. This is a fact and not subjective.


    2) "Keeping" systems
    Another argument is that Blizzard should keep the systems going into new expansions. If that was a good idea then in Shadowlands we would spend 90% of our time in our garrisons, with legendary ring from MoP, having artifact weapons with 2000 Concordance of Legionfall, Azerite Armor with 6 rings, 20 legendary essences, 8 corruption effects, legendary cloak, covenant abilities, souldbinds, crafted legendaries having 90 different passive effects and procs going of all the time and you become this death machine with 140% haste all the time.
    I think to some degrees that you have misunderstood the point of people saying that Blizzard should keep systems. It's not about transferring for example Garrisons or Azerite gear to the next expansion. It's about looking at the good aspects of the Garrisons and Azerite gear and taking advantage of these. If a system didn't work out completely it's not necessarily reason to completely scrap the system entirely. Sometimes it seems like Blizzard are starting from scratch in situation where they don't necessarily have to. Innovation is fantastic but you don't have to reinvent the wheel every 2 years. I know this is exaggerated but I think it illustrates where you might have missed the point. It's not about transferring exact copies of the systems. It's about look at what elements worked out great and then reusing them for the next expansion in some form. Blizzard are actually doing this very well in Shadowlands where they for example are going to reuse the element of legendaries somewhat similar to Legion legendaries, but without the same acquisition method as this was the main point of complaint in Legion. So they are in this case actually transferring the good elements while leaving the bad element behind which is really what people have been asking for.


    3) Borrowed powers
    The newest thing to complain about now is what has been refered to as "borrowed power". This has always existed, though at a lesser extent. We used to borrow legendaries and set bonuses from tier sets, leaving them behind as we went into new content. The argument is that Blizzard should stop making these systems and move them into talents and abilities and even spend more time working on balance.
    I also think you miss the point here a little bit. I do think that most people can see the need for borrowed power as you describe it. Otherwise the inflation of abilities etc. would get out of hand. However, what people do complain about is that the base class is sometimes forgotten in the process of making these borrowed power systems. The basic class design should always be the number one priority and the borrowed power should then come on top of that. But in many cases through the last 2 expansions Blizzard have been too busy with working on the borrowed power systems that they have ignored fundamental issues the with baseline classes and this is what people are complaining about. And I actually think that Blizzard agrees on this point that the fundamental class design should always be solid and the borrowed systems should be some extra spices on the classes.


    4) History
    Again, I think a lot of your arguments are on point. But we also cannot ignore the fact that Blizzard have made some bad decisions throughout the last 3 expansions which they themselves have admitted to afterwards. So when we the players see signs of history repeating itself, it is completely fair and rational to give constuctive feedback. There are multiple cases now of Blizzard saying: "Trust us. It will work on launch" and then it turned out not to work. So when Blizzard currently are saying "Trust us. We will balance it" and the player then are looking back a the corruption system, it's only natural that we get a bit worried.

    But I agree that there are "doomsayers" out there who simply wants to insult Blizzard for the sake of it. And overall WoW is a fantastic game. We have to remember that a lot of the people who complain about specific features in WoW only do it because they really love the game. Otherwise they wouldn't care.
    Last edited by Kaver; 2020-09-26 at 01:38 PM.

  20. #40
    Yeah just consume the product. Never question dev decisions no matter how awful they are, because that's exactly how you improve on a game - by never giving negative feedback.

    /s

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