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  1. #41
    The Patient LuckyOne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chelly View Post
    Yeah just consume the product. Never question dev decisions no matter how awful they are, because that's exactly how you improve on a game - by never giving negative feedback.

    /s
    Missed the point.
    Funny with that signature of yours though.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by LuckyOne View Post
    This forum has a lot of armchair devs that only think from the wallpaper to the wall, conspiracy theorists and people with extreme cynicism.

    And these guys are bored right now until the prepatch comes..

    So yeah, don't sweat it, they'll be busy feeding their addiction soon enough.
    Plus the high end community can get quite toxic when their minmaxing is threatened so the covenant abilities have caused them and their content creators to see red.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Tesshin20 View Post
    I know if I get any response to this it will most likely be a lot of backfire because I am basically attacking a portion of the community, however this has starting to get very frustrating. I have been thinking a lot on this subject lately and I first thought it would come nothing good out of adressing it, but increasingly I feel the need to push back against this sillyness. I love this game so much and I would love to come on here to talk about awesome things, but I find myself very distracted by negativity which doesn't hold any water, most of the time.

    So what am I really talking about? Well first of I need to mention that have high-functioning autism and that is somewhat relevant because I despise people as a collective (not in their individual components of course, I love spending time with certain people). Watching people from a distance behaving in groups is very interesting to me and something that always worries me. People have a tendency to rally behind negativity, not just in gaming but in general. Thats why we have riots and people march. Though some marches have good intentions and outcomes.

    There is also this concept of content creators and the fact that negativity and controversy attract more attention. This feeds into this feedback loop which is very addicting to content creators. This is a huge factor of what is driving this negativity and the complaining and its speaks against its validity. Also, coming with negativity or critisism in general, not just regarding to World of Warcraft, have a tendency to make you appear as a more intelligent and sophisticated person. If you are complaining about something, you show that you have put effort into things, analyzed and made up your intelligent conclusion. Though this is hardly the case. On the other hand, if you are positive about something, you are just this somewhat ignorant gullable person who accepts anything at face value and probably is very forgiving and naive. I would say that is most often not the case at all.

    So back to my autism thingy and how I don't like people in groups. When I see people even in a minority behave in a certain way I have a tendency to go the opposite direction and wonder why they are behaving in such a way. What is the reason behind it.

    Evaluating the common complaints recently I find that 90% of the time they have no real proper reasoned arguments behind them and frankly if I might be so bold, say that they seem coming from posters that haven't made up their own arguments, but following a script. The sentences are formulated the same way and if there are more arguments behind it, it sounds equally the same. Now, that itself doesn't make an argument wrong. People could be posting from a script like mindless bots and come with accurate information. This just doesn't seem to be the case about issues related to recent issues people discuss.

    Now, I know its provoking for me to reduce most opinions down to people just parroting others statements or like posting from a script, however that is how it appears to me and I am still open to a nuanced discussion around critisism from people who have put a lot of thought into their own arguments. However that is not what I see most of the time, though it happens from time to time.

    Also I can watch a youtube or streamer with a lot of followers, and lo and behold, the next day I see people write exactly the same complaint, word for word in comment section on youtube and even here. I even saw many comments yesterday on Youtube to a specific video adressing class balance and people were writing "Oh I was so hyped for Shadowlands, but after watching this, I can't play this expansion after all" People will ACTUALLY accept a youtubers subjective opinion on something as gospel instead of trying the game for themselves.

    I am going to adress the most recent complaint, but there are many of them like "BFA was garbage", "Covenants will fail". I would say both these statements are exaggurated and false. And the reality is far more nuanced. So I will only adress the most recent one for now.

    The newest thing to complain about now is what has been refered to as "borrowed power". This has always existed, though at a lesser extent. We used to borrow legendaries and set bonuses from tier sets, leaving them behind as we went into new content. The argument is that Blizzard should stop making these systems and move them into talents and abilities and even spend more time working on balance.

    These systems are a solution to a problem which was rightly complained about. Introducing new talents and abilities over several expansions gave us so many abilities that Blizzard decided to prune them. And we know how that was recieved. Making new abilities based on the theme of the expansion is a way to solve this issue. When it comes to balance then I think according to looking at warcraftlogs, the game has never been more balanced. But people are so obsessed with being optimal in every situation and never being at an disadvantage that even the 3% difference is unbearable to some people.

    Another argument is that Blizzard should keep the systems going into new expansions. If that was a good idea then in Shadowlands we would spend 90% of our time in our garrisons, with legendary ring from MoP, having artifact weapons with 2000 Concordance of Legionfall, Azerite Armor with 6 rings, 20 legendary essences, 8 corruption effects, legendary cloak, covenant abilities, souldbinds, crafted legendaries having 90 different passive effects and procs going of all the time and you become this death machine with 140% haste all the time.

    I am exaggurating a bit, but you have to see that this is not a good solution. Borrowed power is the best annoying solution compared to the alternatives.

    Also I feel more and more sympathy for the developers of the game. They spend 10 hours a day or so, underpaid under bad conditions working on systems they now they must change in the future anyway because feedback from the usual suspects dictates so, just to come home and trying to connect with the community and they read posts that they should be fired and don't care about the game. It's a miracle we even have a game to log into at this point.

    I will stop there for now and apologize this was a bit long. I have a lot more to say about this and since I have basically offended half of the people that post here, I guess I will have the opportunity to adress more issues if this is turning out something people are willing to discuss.
    This is a great post, and I agree with it entirely.

    ‘Borrowed power’ has happened every expansion. Just before it was always baked into new spells and talents which would then get changed in the next expansion and classes would be completely reworked.

    This was massively unsettling and caused huge complaints that your character would play completely differently form one expansion to the next. Yes there are occasional ‘reworks’, but this is not the norm anymore.

    Now your base character is somewhat similar and each expansion you get different toys to use in conjunction with them. I agree with you, this is a great compromise and solution. Ingenious I would say. People don’t know what they are complaining about.


    Next people complain about ‘raid or die’, because raids will give ever so slightly better gear than M+. This is a laughable exaggeration of the old state of WoW, where dungeons would become worthless as soon as the first tier of raid came out, and would remain so until the end of the expansion. There was no ‘normal mode’ for casuals only heroic and mythic modes. So there was literally no way to advance your character without serious raiding time. We are so far removed from that it isn’t funny.

    It’s great that M+ exists. It is the best feature WoW added for a long time. But raids take more effort, more people and more coordination. Just as there was always tension between 10 man and 25 man raids, now there is tension between 5 man dungeons and raiding. End result is, the more players involved means the more investment players need to make into the game. And more investment should = slightly better rewards.

    People are getting mad about a few ilevels, when they aren’t even doing any content where such ilevels will be required.


    People moan about class balance, but class balance has never even better. You are 100% always better off with skilled players, rather than bad players but of the right class. That was not always the case. Things used to be really bad, and certain specs were not allowed in serious content. That doesn’t happen now unless you have a stupid guild master/leader.


    You are right, the community is so toxic now. It’s like an old marriage which has turned bitter. No one sees the good in anything. People jump to the worse case scenario. The developers don’t get the benefit of the doubt. The playerbase on these sites is turning into a whingy self-entitled blob of negativity, and as you correctly identify, the ‘influencers’ on YouTube and the rest stoke the flames of controversy for their own ends, and so many people’s opinions are influenced in negative ways. Usually at the same time as complaining that others are not thinking for themselves!


    Now WoW is not perfect, and there are legitimate criticisms, but overall it is a great game, with a great world, great systems and classes, a great lore, an ever improving story experience. This game is better now than at any time in its history, and I have played since classic.

    I don’t want to return to classic where everything was slow, class specs were not balanced, and the game was very shallow.
    Or TBC where end game was just serious raiding and almost no storyline. Illidan, Kael’thas, it could have been cool.
    Or WoTLK which was mostly just Naxxramas for the first year, a rehash from classic, cleared on the first week of the expansion. A great raid Ulduar whose life was cut short for the Argent Tournament, and super easy dungeons with very few ways to progress outside of raiding.
    Or Cataclysm and MoP where end fame was just raiding and if you weren’t in a raiding guild you hardly saw any new content. Except for LFR, and we all know how fun that was. At least with SoO we finally got a flexi mode and addons which allowed and encouraged people to step up into raiding without needing a guild.
    WoD which could have been good if not for the Garrison.

    And then, Legion and BfA, the best the game has ever been. Great raids. Great class identity. Purposeful dungeons throughout the expansion cycle with M+. Cross realm group finder for making raids without needing to be locked in a raiding guild. A great storyline with all our favourite characters (minus Sylvanas!), and lots of cool expansion systems to use with our characters. Amazing huge zones and beautiful music. Greater player customisation and my Tauren now has a totem.

    Hopefully Shadowlands will be more of the same because this game is amazing and never been better. The devs deserve a medal for making such an old game fresh, contemporary and amazing to play.

    Peace.

  4. #44
    Pandaren Monk Freedom's Avatar
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    As a fellow ASD person, I liked the part about people sucking in groups. Too many people are sheep, and often I find myself glad for my "affliction", because it means that I generally don't ever find myself bleating after stating an opinion.

    If you don't like sheep thought or unwarranted negativity, I guess there's two things that can help with that. 1: MMO C ignore list is your friend, 2: if a thread is filled with the usual QQ, just skip and skim if you still want to read it.

    Currently there is no solution to stupidity and sheep thought other than to ignore it and move on with your day.
    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    Look at all the people saying that M+ is fun and enjoyable now showing their true face.

    Yeah, you only thought it was good because it gave you way too good gear for barely any effort lol
    Many Multitudes Online Constantly Harping About Minor Problems
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  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by LordVargK View Post
    ... (maybe due to his illness), ...
    Autism is NOT an illness, its a condition. Also not understanding the other side of the arguement (aka lacking empathy) is part of his condition


    On topic: read through the whole post and the first page and could'nt agree more with OP, i've been an avid lurker for years in the forums here, long before my account was created and the complains are just laughable at this point.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Tesshin20 View Post
    I know if I get any response to this it will most likely be a lot of backfire because I am basically attacking a portion of the community, however this has starting to get very frustrating. I have been thinking a lot on this subject lately and I first thought it would come nothing good out of adressing it, but increasingly I feel the need to push back against this sillyness. I love this game so much and I would love to come on here to talk about awesome things, but I find myself very distracted by negativity which doesn't hold any water, most of the time.

    So what am I really talking about? Well first of I need to mention that have high-functioning autism and that is somewhat relevant because I despise people as a collective (not in their individual components of course, I love spending time with certain people). Watching people from a distance behaving in groups is very interesting to me and something that always worries me. People have a tendency to rally behind negativity, not just in gaming but in general. Thats why we have riots and people march. Though some marches have good intentions and outcomes.

    There is also this concept of content creators and the fact that negativity and controversy attract more attention. This feeds into this feedback loop which is very addicting to content creators. This is a huge factor of what is driving this negativity and the complaining and its speaks against its validity. Also, coming with negativity or critisism in general, not just regarding to World of Warcraft, have a tendency to make you appear as a more intelligent and sophisticated person. If you are complaining about something, you show that you have put effort into things, analyzed and made up your intelligent conclusion. Though this is hardly the case. On the other hand, if you are positive about something, you are just this somewhat ignorant gullable person who accepts anything at face value and probably is very forgiving and naive. I would say that is most often not the case at all.

    So back to my autism thingy and how I don't like people in groups. When I see people even in a minority behave in a certain way I have a tendency to go the opposite direction and wonder why they are behaving in such a way. What is the reason behind it.

    Evaluating the common complaints recently I find that 90% of the time they have no real proper reasoned arguments behind them and frankly if I might be so bold, say that they seem coming from posters that haven't made up their own arguments, but following a script. The sentences are formulated the same way and if there are more arguments behind it, it sounds equally the same. Now, that itself doesn't make an argument wrong. People could be posting from a script like mindless bots and come with accurate information. This just doesn't seem to be the case about issues related to recent issues people discuss.

    Now, I know its provoking for me to reduce most opinions down to people just parroting others statements or like posting from a script, however that is how it appears to me and I am still open to a nuanced discussion around critisism from people who have put a lot of thought into their own arguments. However that is not what I see most of the time, though it happens from time to time.

    Also I can watch a youtube or streamer with a lot of followers, and lo and behold, the next day I see people write exactly the same complaint, word for word in comment section on youtube and even here. I even saw many comments yesterday on Youtube to a specific video adressing class balance and people were writing "Oh I was so hyped for Shadowlands, but after watching this, I can't play this expansion after all" People will ACTUALLY accept a youtubers subjective opinion on something as gospel instead of trying the game for themselves.

    I am going to adress the most recent complaint, but there are many of them like "BFA was garbage", "Covenants will fail". I would say both these statements are exaggurated and false. And the reality is far more nuanced. So I will only adress the most recent one for now.

    The newest thing to complain about now is what has been refered to as "borrowed power". This has always existed, though at a lesser extent. We used to borrow legendaries and set bonuses from tier sets, leaving them behind as we went into new content. The argument is that Blizzard should stop making these systems and move them into talents and abilities and even spend more time working on balance.

    These systems are a solution to a problem which was rightly complained about. Introducing new talents and abilities over several expansions gave us so many abilities that Blizzard decided to prune them. And we know how that was recieved. Making new abilities based on the theme of the expansion is a way to solve this issue. When it comes to balance then I think according to looking at warcraftlogs, the game has never been more balanced. But people are so obsessed with being optimal in every situation and never being at an disadvantage that even the 3% difference is unbearable to some people.

    Another argument is that Blizzard should keep the systems going into new expansions. If that was a good idea then in Shadowlands we would spend 90% of our time in our garrisons, with legendary ring from MoP, having artifact weapons with 2000 Concordance of Legionfall, Azerite Armor with 6 rings, 20 legendary essences, 8 corruption effects, legendary cloak, covenant abilities, souldbinds, crafted legendaries having 90 different passive effects and procs going of all the time and you become this death machine with 140% haste all the time.

    I am exaggurating a bit, but you have to see that this is not a good solution. Borrowed power is the best annoying solution compared to the alternatives.

    Also I feel more and more sympathy for the developers of the game. They spend 10 hours a day or so, underpaid under bad conditions working on systems they now they must change in the future anyway because feedback from the usual suspects dictates so, just to come home and trying to connect with the community and they read posts that they should be fired and don't care about the game. It's a miracle we even have a game to log into at this point.

    I will stop there for now and apologize this was a bit long. I have a lot more to say about this and since I have basically offended half of the people that post here, I guess I will have the opportunity to adress more issues if this is turning out something people are willing to discuss.
    I just got to page 2 of this thread so I still gotta read the rest of the thread but I wanted to quote your OP and say that I agree with you completely on every point you made.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Peacemoon View Post
    No one sees the good in anything. People jump to the worse case scenario. The developers don’t get the benefit of the doubt. The playerbase on these sites is turning into a whingy self-entitled blob of negativity, and as you correctly identify, the ‘influencers’ on YouTube and the rest stoke the flames of controversy for their own ends, and so many people’s opinions are influenced in negative ways. Usually at the same time as complaining that others are not thinking for themselves!
    Of course, why did I not see this before? I am in the wrong for having an opinion... silly me. Oh btw, when I think there is something worth crediting. I do give them credit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chelly View Post
    Yeah just consume the product.



    Quote Originally Posted by Jamais View Post
    General sexism: Arthas is a revered figure, but Sylvanas is an evil bich and ''feminazi propaganda'' has entered Blizz (despite those two chars having similar concepts). Kul Tiran female controversy (can't have fat females in my game, amirite), many other examples.
    That's a big negative. Don't even get me started on what really transpired there..

  8. #48
    Field Marshal Shiandra's Avatar
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    I have noticed for a while the negativity here. Most of the time I do not make posts, hence my small post count, because I ignore most of the trash.

    I mean, all I ever see is 'the story is crap, boo Blizz' or 'they don't care about anything except money, boo hoo' or a trillion other same remarks that really don't do much. All the while shelling out money all the same to play and pose. Even if they got everything they wanted, they would still find a way to complain using those same repetitive whinges all cuz it feeds their need for attention.

    Hell, the whole of the internet is fairly repetitive and negative. Life, news and bleh are all tainted this way, which is wholly tiresome. I get people aren't satisfied. I get that a lot of people haven't really grown out of the 'gimme gimme gimme my participation trophy and I am special and how dare you' mentality. I suppose this kind of behavior has been going on for eons, but now with how the internet and information works now, we just see it in a visible militant mob like aspect.

    Personally I just wish people didn't have the constant need to fuel trolls. Like, is it really so hard to just not post to the stupid inflammatory, baseless and trollish comments? Do people not realize if you don't acknowledge them they'll go away? You can't argue with them. You can't get them to see your side. You can't educate willful ignorance. People with those kind of narrow limited mindsets are in essence sticking to this pointless feedback loop of negativity just cuz they can.

    Its a fixation that is very like a cancer, but if a community bands together and shuns the ones who contribute nothing to a conversation, said people will go somewhere else. Like, there is a block button for a reason. Don't like the consistent persistent idiotic comments/posts? Block them. Eventually it will go away and you can have one less trashy thing that floats in to deal with.

    And manners, ho my glob, people can complain and be pissy, but do it with class, yeah? You can be respectful, while still having your say. I have had a number of discussions with people here in the past where I have never lowered myself down from the personal standards I have for my own behavior. Key words there. People don't seem to have standards for themselves anymore either. Like, do they just wholly lose their minds cuz they think the internet protects them? There isn't too much difference between social interaction irl and on the internet. Do to others as you would have them do to you, still applies. Want people to hear you, want people to pay attention to you? Then act in the manner you expect others to treat you with. But, of course, this requires change on persons part and 'how dare you expect me to change! You need to change! I'm not wrong, you are! I am perfect how dare you.' -Rolls eyes-

    I try to treat others with the kind of politeness and respect I want others to give me, even if I don't frequently get that. I walk away when something offends my very being instead of giving into the urge to stab it. Repeatedly. In the end there are a lot of people standing on milk crates voicing their opinions crowding the sidewalk all singing the same tuneless tune that it makes it hard to walk because of the trash. Eventually they'll be forced to move on, meanwhile this is why man made headphones, so I don't have to listen.
    Last edited by Shiandra; 2020-09-26 at 02:20 PM.

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  9. #49
    Honestly, I am a glass half full kind of person and always try to be optimistic but what OP is saying is basically the polar opposite of the blind hating. You're being blind to issues and going as far as to discount "90%" of peoples issues as baseless.

    The health of this game declining is not purely due to the rabble of discontent but also the people who will just blindly believe or praise Blizzard for bare minimum or bad decisions. Shadowlands is a toss up for me, I am not sure if I will enjoy it or not personally but Im ready to go but christ, don't be a blind defender or hater. There is a reason people are harsh on something they love (which I do, WoW is a passion for me) Because they wish to see it do better, to have a better understanding of the community.

    A HUGE issue with gaming now is toxicity and peoples refusal to call out devs. It's a very bad mix to balance. Also to one of your points, Borrowed power isn't mainly about "Why don't I keep my neck into Shadowlands" but the absolute valley the player feels when transitioning to a new expansion. It is an issue and to say it doesn't have a solution and that what Blizzard chooses to do is the best solution is just as bad as what you dislike.

    As is said, It's all relative. Gaming has slowly faded for me due to Mob mentality both ways. I can't go into Overwatch free mode without getting lambasted for picking a non optimal character, The flip side is that you also have a constant praise mentality that lead WoW into the dip it experienced. Criticism is key and your post just comes off as saying "90% of people are wrong on how they subjectively feel because I discount their opinions" and say it feels scripted. That attitude is just as toxic as hate for the health of game discussion.

  10. #50
    Merely a Setback Queen of Hamsters's Avatar
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    If you follow this website for a while, you'll notice that it's the same people saying the same most negative shit over and over and over again. And still they consume the product, making them pretty difficult to take seriously.

    Let them whine, the game has outlasted its due death date according to forums by oooh... 14 years. People giving actual feedback will always exist as balance.
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  11. #51
    Why would anyone give developers any benefit of the doubt with their track record?

    To add to that the only times in the past they have every reacted to feedback was when it came with a crushing wave of criticism mostly all of it in some form of " WTF were you thinking?".

    There is roughly a month before launch and monks dont have a spec that does higher then tank damage reliably, Classes are seeing 30%+ dps differences BETWEEN THE SAME SPEC based on what covenants and conduits they are using, pvp consists of one shot one kill , and they are talking about adding a massive grind to a zone that is painfully unfinished and it is clear there isn't nearly enough time to develop it left.

    Blizzard flat out lied to its consumers saying that if the worst case scenario came they could easily gut the new systems and yet people weirdly here are hell bent on sticking up for them.

    I enjoy the product I won't lie but these constant massive overhauls each expansion into more and more broken systems are an increasing annoyance. I admit at this point I wish that activision would be bought up wow could try its hands under the direction of a new development team.

  12. #52
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tesshin20 View Post


    I read this as well at the same place you pointed out. "Most users ever online was 253,388, 2014-04-08 at 04:12 PM." So 250k online at the same time in 2014. And now 2k on a saturday. Seems like this place was a bit more popular before.
    Seems like a crazily higher percentage of ppl dropped out of MMO-C than out of WoW

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by LostLocket View Post
    Why would anyone give developers any benefit of the doubt with their track record?
    The track record of it being the one MMO that made shit tons of money and now lasts 15+ years with still a higher amount of people playing it than MMOs with huge franchises behind them like SW or LotR?

    ...and in a time when all the MMOs created by devs that claimed to be "listening" crashed and burned?

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Zambajazz View Post
    Autism is NOT an illness, its a condition. Also not understanding the other side of the arguement (aka lacking empathy) is part of his condition


    On topic: read through the whole post and the first page and could'nt agree more with OP, i've been an avid lurker for years in the forums here, long before my account was created and the complains are just laughable at this point.
    Yeah, in my Language it's the same. Also this was a reply to someone, who did not have a clue.

  14. #54
    I think there are legitimate criticism threads, but they tend to get buried under the "I hate foxes", "Why no scars on my blood elf Blizz", and other complaints that don't really have a bearing on the game.

    I never commented a lot to begin with, but generally even less now, because of how ridiculous some of the complaint threads have gotten.
    Do I really look like a guy with a plan?

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Seems like a crazily higher percentage of ppl dropped out of MMO-C than out of WoW

    - - - Updated - - -



    The track record of it being the one MMO that made shit tons of money and now lasts 15+ years with still a higher amount of people playing it than MMOs with huge franchises behind them like SW or LotR?

    ...and in a time when all the MMOs created by devs that claimed to be "listening" crashed and burned?
    I am not arguing wow hasn't been successful, The game owes a lot of its success I believe to when and how it came out. I just am getting tired of it feeling like it needs to drastically change all of its core systems with each iteration. I notice you only quoted one sentence in my entire post but the rest sums it up.

    It just feels like they are cutting corners more and more as time goes on. Relying on gimmicks more then well thought out devolvement. The core of the game is still solid but I wish a different development team and company held the IP at this point...well not any company or development team but I think you can at least understand my sentiment.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    you flat out claim here that the vast majority of people who criticize the current design of WoW are just straight making shit up.
    Most of the criticisms are basically I feel statements, or I watched so and so and he said this is bad so it must be bad. Rarely, and you've been around long enough to know this, are complaints backed up with evidence.

  17. #57
    The Unstoppable Force Super Kami Dende's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulfric Trumpcloak View Post
    This dude just wrote an essay complaining about people complaining.
    This is always the most low-tier copout retorts to People being sick of complainers.

    "lOl U r JuSt CoMpLaInInG aBut ComPlaiNts durrhurr." Getting sick of People needlessly complaining about dumb shit isn't as bad as the People actually complaining about dumb shit. It is only ever used by People that can't actually back up their reasons for their original complaints or to just deflect criticism.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Seems like a crazily higher percentage of ppl dropped out of MMO-C than out of WoW

    - - - Updated - - -



    The track record of it being the one MMO that made shit tons of money and now lasts 15+ years with still a higher amount of people playing it than MMOs with huge franchises behind them like SW or LotR?

    ...and in a time when all the MMOs created by devs that claimed to be "listening" crashed and burned?
    Man this forum need a like option. I was someone where else just talking about this. All of these so called WoW killers that were doing things player wanted that WoW wasn't doing or doing right, where are they now? There are only 2, well 3 if you want to count the single player game SWTOR became, that are doing things their own way and are doing fairly well. That's ESO, FF14, and SWTOR. every other one is dead, went F2P very fast, or are still up but have just a few more player than I have digits. Yet WoW still thrives, despite all the pissing and moaning from it's fan base. Many who don't even play.

  19. #59
    The Unstoppable Force Super Kami Dende's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    you flat out claim here that the vast majority of people who criticize the current design of WoW are just straight making shit up.
    Making shit up? Nah. Absolutely exaggerating everything to the point of absurd nonsense? Yeah, Pretty much the Majority.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Peacemoon View Post
    This is a great post, and I agree with it entirely.

    ‘Borrowed power’ has happened every expansion. Just before it was always baked into new spells and talents which would then get changed in the next expansion and classes would be completely reworked.

    This was massively unsettling and caused huge complaints that your character would play completely differently form one expansion to the next. Yes there are occasional ‘reworks’, but this is not the norm anymore.

    Now your base character is somewhat similar and each expansion you get different toys to use in conjunction with them. I agree with you, this is a great compromise and solution. Ingenious I would say. People don’t know what they are complaining about.


    Next people complain about ‘raid or die’, because raids will give ever so slightly better gear than M+. This is a laughable exaggeration of the old state of WoW, where dungeons would become worthless as soon as the first tier of raid came out, and would remain so until the end of the expansion. There was no ‘normal mode’ for casuals only heroic and mythic modes. So there was literally no way to advance your character without serious raiding time. We are so far removed from that it isn’t funny.

    It’s great that M+ exists. It is the best feature WoW added for a long time. But raids take more effort, more people and more coordination. Just as there was always tension between 10 man and 25 man raids, now there is tension between 5 man dungeons and raiding. End result is, the more players involved means the more investment players need to make into the game. And more investment should = slightly better rewards.

    People are getting mad about a few ilevels, when they aren’t even doing any content where such ilevels will be required.


    People moan about class balance, but class balance has never even better. You are 100% always better off with skilled players, rather than bad players but of the right class. That was not always the case. Things used to be really bad, and certain specs were not allowed in serious content. That doesn’t happen now unless you have a stupid guild master/leader.


    You are right, the community is so toxic now. It’s like an old marriage which has turned bitter. No one sees the good in anything. People jump to the worse case scenario. The developers don’t get the benefit of the doubt. The playerbase on these sites is turning into a whingy self-entitled blob of negativity, and as you correctly identify, the ‘influencers’ on YouTube and the rest stoke the flames of controversy for their own ends, and so many people’s opinions are influenced in negative ways. Usually at the same time as complaining that others are not thinking for themselves!


    Now WoW is not perfect, and there are legitimate criticisms, but overall it is a great game, with a great world, great systems and classes, a great lore, an ever improving story experience. This game is better now than at any time in its history, and I have played since classic.

    I don’t want to return to classic where everything was slow, class specs were not balanced, and the game was very shallow.
    Or TBC where end game was just serious raiding and almost no storyline. Illidan, Kael’thas, it could have been cool.
    Or WoTLK which was mostly just Naxxramas for the first year, a rehash from classic, cleared on the first week of the expansion. A great raid Ulduar whose life was cut short for the Argent Tournament, and super easy dungeons with very few ways to progress outside of raiding.
    Or Cataclysm and MoP where end fame was just raiding and if you weren’t in a raiding guild you hardly saw any new content. Except for LFR, and we all know how fun that was. At least with SoO we finally got a flexi mode and addons which allowed and encouraged people to step up into raiding without needing a guild.
    WoD which could have been good if not for the Garrison.

    And then, Legion and BfA, the best the game has ever been. Great raids. Great class identity. Purposeful dungeons throughout the expansion cycle with M+. Cross realm group finder for making raids without needing to be locked in a raiding guild. A great storyline with all our favourite characters (minus Sylvanas!), and lots of cool expansion systems to use with our characters. Amazing huge zones and beautiful music. Greater player customisation and my Tauren now has a totem.

    Hopefully Shadowlands will be more of the same because this game is amazing and never been better. The devs deserve a medal for making such an old game fresh, contemporary and amazing to play.

    Peace.
    But that extra 5 ilvls they could have gotten now that M+ gives a bit lower gear is going to ruin them.

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