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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    It's better to be a more positive part of a community than to complain about others.

    That said, I'm honest about what I think of things and don't try to predict anything in advance of having some experience with it. There's stuff I actively like, stuff I actively dislike, and a whole lot of things in the game that I'm ambivalent about.

    A lot of what gets posted here is primarily being outrageous to provoke a response. That is what it is and is best ignored altogether.

    ==========================



    Nonsense. Professional game developers are not trying hard to create a poor product. Those who no longer care for the direction of the game should walk away and not look back. Personal opinions are not a good barometer on the quality of developer efforts. I can think of several games that I view as absolute dog shit but I can pretty much guarantee that the team that put it together invested a lot of work in it. Furthermore, even though I think some game is a pile of crap there are plenty of others who disagree. That's all well and good.
    No, of course not but they have people working on the game that have no clue what it's about.
    Their metrics for determining what is good content is obviously flawed. They are just bad at their job, simple as that.

    There is a reason why the important names left the team already after all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryzek View Post
    Blah blah, they are killing the game. Its the same shit every xpac.
    They have been tossing out rather poor products the last few expansions though so yeah.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    For someone to say Blizzard tries to make WoW bad on purpose is utterly nonsensical though and should not be taken seriously.
    Not only should it not be taken seriously it should be moderated. This forum is a product of bad moderation. It corrupts both the valid discussions with actual good feedback aswell as the hype threads that could make this forum great.

    I honestly cant fathom why this forum is not moderated better for its own sake.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by LordVargK View Post
    That's what is called an opinion. And you did not even deliver a proper reasoning, you just reasoned against ONE alternative (there is not just black and white here).
    Not having borrowed power worked for 6/9 of WoW's lifetime (measured in patches and SL is included). So to say borrowed power (in the Legion sense) is the best solution is HIGHLY subjective, not really statistically founded and not properly reasoned by you.

    Also having systems to build on has been positive. Mythic + is probably the most successful system ever and it is build on dungeons, a system form the beginning of WoW.
    Same could have been done for Garrisons. They would have been changed slightly of course, since they had some flaws. But the complaint here is, that Blizzard often abandones systems instead of fixing them, even if they have the potential to be excellent.
    Garrisons could have been made guild wide, fixing the "alone" problem. Island Expeditions could have been made around exploration, triggering different scenario options to progress. Warfronts could have been made in an Epic Battleground style, where PvP players fight at the front while PvE players gather ressources and build the base to support PvP players.

    Just because you lack creativity and are unable to understand different opinions (since you don't like other groups of people) does not mean that your opinion is right. High functioning autist or not (don't really see why thats important tbh...).
    Bullshit.

    He literally explained in the paragraph before that how not having borrowed power would look like and it was also the exact same reason given by Blizzard when they started pruning classes.

    When you have more abilities than spaces on your basic built-in task bar then there are problems. Especially when 25% of them are virtually useless flavor stuff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    Not only should it not be taken seriously it should be moderated. This forum is a product of bad moderation. It corrupts both the valid discussions with actual good feedback aswell as the hype threads that could make this forum great.

    I honestly cant fathom why this forum is not moderated better for its own sake.
    Apparently when you have a 10y old member badge under your name whatever you write becomes truth instantly and if you dare counter that you will be the one moderated.

    Funnily enough, these 10y old members are the most toxic and negative about the current game making bait threads all day.

  4. #104

  5. #105
    I just think its absurd to have 40% of the power to be on our actual characters and 60% to be on outside systems like azerite armor, legendaries, corruption, etc, etc.

    That's what it feels like at least.

    Imo the split should be more 80% character, 20% borrowed.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamais View Post
    You don't need to apologize OP.
    General sexism: Arthas is a revered figure, but Sylvanas is an evil bich and ''feminazi propaganda'' has entered Blizz (despite those two chars having similar concepts). Kul Tiran female controversy (can't have fat females in my game, amirite), many other examples.
    This really does make me upset. Arthas's character arc isn't anything more special than Sylvanas, and I don't get the Arthas love at all. He's the most cartoon villain in the whole series.

  7. #107
    Also, the vast majority of people who complain this much on forums usually don't even play the game itself OR log in once a week to farm transmog at best.

    I really think this forum would do better for meaningful discussions if you had to use an active WoW account to post. 80% of whiners would be basically deleted.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Steelangel View Post
    This really does make me upset. Arthas's character arc isn't anything more special than Sylvanas, and I don't get the Arthas love at all. He's the most cartoon villain in the whole series.
    I think one of the reasons people really feel attached to arthas is that we played him as he went evil in wc3. Where as other characters we know from wc3 like Illidan randomly went evil in wow.

    I dont understand why people have a problem with Sylvanas and her actions either though. I mean sure there are plotholes but come on. Get over it

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Steelangel View Post
    This really does make me upset. Arthas's character arc isn't anything more special than Sylvanas, and I don't get the Arthas love at all. He's the most cartoon villain in the whole series.
    It's because Arthas' story from WC3 to the end of Wrath was carefully crafted rather being made a villain simply because there were no major villains left.

    He's the Anakin Skywalker of Warcraft.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by scrappybristol View Post
    I just think its absurd to have 40% of the power to be on our actual characters and 60% to be on outside systems like azerite armor, legendaries, corruption, etc, etc.

    That's what it feels like at least.

    Imo the split should be more 80% character, 20% borrowed.
    If I could have it my way, I would go for that. I don't mind borrowed power at all, and it could be more than 20%, but then it should be so that skill matters. A proc or one ability doing 20-50% of your damage isn't a good feeling.

    Most of all, I want skill to matter again. And just to add, when I came back to WoW a month ago I purified all my gear of Corruption, because prior to that, I logged into PTR and seeing your character doing 80-90% damage from the class itself was refreshing.
    - Enough prattling. Let them come. We shall grind their bones to dust.

  11. #111
    Ahh one of those "your opinions are wrong, mine are correct, I won't explain why" posts.

    Generally is a large majority of a group is complaining about something, it tends to be a genuine problem. Essentially in most cases where 100 people disagree with you and you stand alone, you're wrong.

    To consider "BFA was bad" an exaggerated opinion is laughable. Basically every feature of this expansion flopped. Warfronts were an afkfest, expeditions were ignored entirely, azerite and corruption flopped when it was more powerful than class abilities, and PvP was unplayable without PvE gear. Factor in the bafflingly terrible story along with lazily implemented allied races and you have a bad expansion.

    I don't know how you can just handwave that criticism. It's legitimate, backed up by tanking subs and the growing antagonism on the forums. Most people were optimistic at the start. The questing was great, the zones were fantastic, every endgame system failed.

  12. #112
    I get hated on constantly just for liking Taliesin, who is in turn relatively positive about the game. Toxic as all hell and I'd leave if I had better things to do with my life.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daevelian View Post
    So this is how far the Lore forum has fallen? Eesh.
    I take it back, BfA is not the lowest the games lore could have gone, this thread proves that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    And just like the thread before it, let's back away from sexualizing Azshara and return to the original topic at hand.

  13. #113
    Quite a large wall just to complain about complainers. What you need to understand is that not everyone complains for the sake of complaining because they can't let go of the game or something, but they will also do it as they have a passion for the game and they really want to see it improved. If they were not complaining and stayed completely silent, it would just show a huge lack of interest for the game which would be even worse. Its not like you can always expect positivity towards the game either, there needs to be at least some balance.

    Its very unfair to even sweep them all together as being complaints. I've seen plenty that are actually just suggestions for the game to improve, such as ''do this or that with covenants'' and whatever they can possibly do to improve the feature. Not everyone is constructive but I don't think they need to be, just don't pay attention to them and move on to posts that are constructive instead. The same can go for every thread which you will read as just complaining about the game, just don't visit it and look somewhere else. Don't expect people to just stop complaining because it will never happen. And yes if the game does get worse and worse, then expect more complaints to come. Maybe the problem doesn't lie with the complainers then.

  14. #114
    Objectively, subs have fallen for years and years. So complainers probably have a point, and defenders have no place to stand. If subs were going up for along period of time, lots of complainers would be obnoxious. But it appears to be valid feedback and people complaining about the complainers are the obnoxious ones.
    Last edited by Die; 2020-09-26 at 10:42 PM.

  15. #115
    Elemental Lord Poppincaps's Avatar
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    First of all, I have no idea why you brought up the protests/riots. I generally agree that people focus on negativity too much, but this is a situation where the negativity is so prevalent that some people don't have the luxury to ignore it, which you fail to grasp.

    Back to WoW, you also seem to misunderstand the complaints around the covenants. Heavy borrowed power is annoying, but that's not the reason people dislike the covenants in their current implementation. The problem is that if you like Raiding, M+, and Arenas, you are unlikely to find a covenant that is good in all three. So if you like performing at a high level in all three, you're basically fucked unless the stars align and the ability is good for all three, which will be very rare.

    The other component is that some guilds and players enjoy playing at a high level and pushing themselves and would rather not be forced into a covenant, that has many cool elements outside of power such as story and cosmetics, just so that they can stay competitive.

    I'm sure there are other reasons that people don't like the covenants but those are by far the two most prevalent.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Poppincaps View Post
    First of all, I have no idea why you brought up the protests/riots. I generally agree that people focus on negativity too much, but this is a situation where the negativity is so prevalent that some people don't have the luxury to ignore it, which you fail to grasp.

    Back to WoW, you also seem to misunderstand the complaints around the covenants. Heavy borrowed power is annoying, but that's not the reason people dislike the covenants in their current implementation. The problem is that if you like Raiding, M+, and Arenas, you are unlikely to find a covenant that is good in all three. So if you like performing at a high level in all three, you're basically fucked unless the stars align and the ability is good for all three, which will be very rare.

    The other component is that some guilds and players enjoy playing at a high level and pushing themselves and would rather not be forced into a covenant, that has many cool elements outside of power such as story and cosmetics, just so that they can stay competitive.

    I'm sure there are other reasons that people don't like the covenants but those are by far the two most prevalent.
    The reason for bringing up riots to show an example outside of the game where people rally behind negativity as a collective. And this is part of human nature. Though that doesn't make it a positive thing all of the time.

    I do understand that that is the complaint about covenants. My issue with that complaint is why would you expect in an MMO to actually be good in all three. I find it almost borderline entitlement to be optimal in all areas of the game. You have to pick your poison so to say.

    I do have sympathy for people playing at a competetive level having issues with covenants. I also find it very annoying as a resto shaman that when I get on fights like Radiance of Aszhara, I am horrible for that fight because the strengths of my class doesn't align with how the fight works.

    However, being frustrated on this, in my opinion even though it sucks at the moment, gives depth to game and forces me to think outside the box to compensate. I find this very fun indeed even though it doesn't work out.

    To be optimal in every situation, would feel bland and boring, as it will actually be the same as being optimal in no situations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Die View Post
    Objectively, subs have fallen for years and years. So complainers probably have a point, and defenders have no place to stand. If subs were going up for along period of time, lots of complainers would be obnoxious. But it appears to be valid feedback and people complaining about the complainers are the obnoxious ones.
    Well, what if the reason for the subs going down, is because of the complainers? Both my sons quit the game because they were met with insults in dungeons trying to learn the game for the first week.

    If you somehow feel that people that bring up annoying issues about the community is being obnoxious, I would like to know how one can have a meta-discussion about how the community behave good or bad in a way that is to your satisfaction, or is this a no-go area of discussion?

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    Quote Originally Posted by McNeil View Post
    Quite a large wall just to complain about complainers. What you need to understand is that not everyone complains for the sake of complaining because they can't let go of the game or something, but they will also do it as they have a passion for the game and they really want to see it improved. If they were not complaining and stayed completely silent, it would just show a huge lack of interest for the game which would be even worse. Its not like you can always expect positivity towards the game either, there needs to be at least some balance.

    Its very unfair to even sweep them all together as being complaints. I've seen plenty that are actually just suggestions for the game to improve, such as ''do this or that with covenants'' and whatever they can possibly do to improve the feature. Not everyone is constructive but I don't think they need to be, just don't pay attention to them and move on to posts that are constructive instead. The same can go for every thread which you will read as just complaining about the game, just don't visit it and look somewhere else. Don't expect people to just stop complaining because it will never happen. And yes if the game does get worse and worse, then expect more complaints to come. Maybe the problem doesn't lie with the complainers then.
    This post is almost something I would ignore, as what you are adressing here is something that I adressed as well.

    Complaining about complainers, is not a bad thing. The universal law of minus/minus = plus is in effect here.

    I wrote in my post as well that not everbody that complains, does it for bad reasons or no reasons at all. I even have a lot of complains myself as I am testing things on PTR which I find frustrating. But I am not going to go to Youtube and adopt my opinion from someone there and be a part of a sheep mentality. Thats the issue I have problems with here. People complaining for the wrong reasons. Because those wrong reasons do exist.

    You actually strawmanned by post as I even stated I have no problems with complains or feedback if its based on actual facts or well argued.

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    Quote Originally Posted by korijenkins View Post
    Ahh one of those "your opinions are wrong, mine are correct, I won't explain why" posts.

    Generally is a large majority of a group is complaining about something, it tends to be a genuine problem. Essentially in most cases where 100 people disagree with you and you stand alone, you're wrong.

    To consider "BFA was bad" an exaggerated opinion is laughable. Basically every feature of this expansion flopped. Warfronts were an afkfest, expeditions were ignored entirely, azerite and corruption flopped when it was more powerful than class abilities, and PvP was unplayable without PvE gear. Factor in the bafflingly terrible story along with lazily implemented allied races and you have a bad expansion.

    I don't know how you can just handwave that criticism. It's legitimate, backed up by tanking subs and the growing antagonism on the forums. Most people were optimistic at the start. The questing was great, the zones were fantastic, every endgame system failed.
    This is actually quite a fallacy. How many that believes something or make a specific claim, has absolutely no bearing on the fact of the case. There are plenty of examples an masse of incidents where the majority opinion has been a faulty one.

    And this comes back to the core issue of this thread. When people flock around a content creater and adopt his or her opinion quite blindly, unfounded opinions spread to the masses and you do actually end up with a majority being factually wrong about a certain topic.

    Well, rest of the things you list is your subjective opinion, you are entitled to it. For example with azerite gear. Blizzard have stated that the sole purpose of the gear is to provide gear for the chest, head and shoulders were you could pick your own "set bonus". And it achieved just that. The issue is that parts of the community sometimes expects system to be more than what they are intended to be. Just like some people expect certain covenant abilities to make them optimal in all areas of the game, which is quite unreasonable.

    In my opinion take your own subjective opinions and claim them to be objective facts about the game. A vast portion of the community doesn't feel the way you do, evidenced that BFA has around 4 million subscribers who I assume don't waste money on a game they dislike as much as you do.

    You entire post actually proves my point quite well. I couldn't actually said it better myself.

  17. #117
    Elemental Lord Poppincaps's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tesshin20 View Post
    The reason for bringing up riots to show an example outside of the game where people rally behind negativity as a collective. And this is part of human nature. Though that doesn't make it a positive thing all of the time.

    I do understand that that is the complaint about covenants. My issue with that complaint is why would you expect in an MMO to actually be good in all three. I find it almost borderline entitlement to be optimal in all areas of the game. You have to pick your poison so to say.

    I do have sympathy for people playing at a competetive level having issues with covenants. I also find it very annoying as a resto shaman that when I get on fights like Radiance of Aszhara, I am horrible for that fight because the strengths of my class doesn't align with how the fight works.

    However, being frustrated on this, in my opinion even though it sucks at the moment, gives depth to game and forces me to think outside the box to compensate. I find this very fun indeed even though it doesn't work out.

    To be optimal in every situation, would feel bland and boring, as it will actually be the same as being optimal in no situations.
    It was a poor comparison. You're comparing people complaining about a video game to people protesting police brutality and systematic racism. Pretty tasteless at best.

    Also, what you're failing to understand with your "it's entitlement to suggest that you're viable in all three" comment, is that for many classes, it has been perfectly fine before. They are adding more variables where you can be screwed out of doing certain content than there ever have been. Every class should be viable in every bit of endgame content in the game. Just because they're viable doesn't mean they're all the same. Rogues are historically very good in arenas because they have a lot of stuns and burst dps. Affliction Warlocks are also good in pvp because their sustained pressure on multiple targets makes them good.

    The problem with the covenants is that some abilities will just never be good in certain content. The Venthyr hunter ability will be good in raids and probably in Arena as well, but will be bad in Mythic + due to not having an AOE component. It could be decent on Tyrannical weeks, but even then Resonating Arrow does well on Single Target and does great on AOE, so it'd still win out. So as a result of me picking Venthyr because my main priority is raiding, I will now have trouble getting into Mythic + groups, because they're going to want a Hunter that is in the Kyrian or Necrolords covenant and if they're pushing higher keys, I don't really blame them. This is extra problematic since Mythic + is part of the PVE gearing path.

    Also your Radiance of Azshara example is bad. Being bad on one fight doesn't mean you're bad overall. In fact, I feel like we agree that sometimes your class shouldn't have all the answers to a fight. Some classes should excel on some fights and be viable but not as good on others. But note that we are talking about one fight. Not a whole category of endgame content like Arenas, Mythic +, or Raiding.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by scrappybristol View Post
    I just think its absurd to have 40% of the power to be on our actual characters and 60% to be on outside systems like azerite armor, legendaries, corruption, etc, etc.

    That's what it feels like at least.

    Imo the split should be more 80% character, 20% borrowed.
    If I remove all sources of borrowed power: Azerite armor, legendaries, corruption, gear, etc(Yes gear is borrowed....)
    I have 29020 hp and 1268 str
    With all of my borrowed power:
    820k hp 11875 str

    So actual character(with no borrowed power) is HP:3.5% to 96.5% Str:10% to 90%

    But wait doji gear isn't borrow power.... Well it is an outside system on our characters(As much as legendaries), you don't keep it between patches and expansions. They have redesigned the system massively every expansion so far(see the changes to how stats on gear has worked every expansion)

  19. #119
    Pre patch cant come soon enough.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Poppincaps View Post
    It was a poor comparison. You're comparing people complaining about a video game to people protesting police brutality and systematic racism. Pretty tasteless at best.

    Also, what you're failing to understand with your "it's entitlement to suggest that you're viable in all three" comment, is that for many classes, it has been perfectly fine before. They are adding more variables where you can be screwed out of doing certain content than there ever have been. Every class should be viable in every bit of endgame content in the game. Just because they're viable doesn't mean they're all the same. Rogues are historically very good in arenas because they have a lot of stuns and burst dps. Affliction Warlocks are also good in pvp because their sustained pressure on multiple targets makes them good.

    The problem with the covenants is that some abilities will just never be good in certain content. The Venthyr hunter ability will be good in raids and probably in Arena as well, but will be bad in Mythic + due to not having an AOE component. It could be decent on Tyrannical weeks, but even then Resonating Arrow does well on Single Target and does great on AOE, so it'd still win out. So as a result of me picking Venthyr because my main priority is raiding, I will now have trouble getting into Mythic + groups, because they're going to want a Hunter that is in the Kyrian or Necrolords covenant and if they're pushing higher keys, I don't really blame them. This is extra problematic since Mythic + is part of the PVE gearing path.

    Also your Radiance of Azshara example is bad. Being bad on one fight doesn't mean you're bad overall. In fact, I feel like we agree that sometimes your class shouldn't have all the answers to a fight. Some classes should excel on some fights and be viable but not as good on others. But note that we are talking about one fight. Not a whole category of endgame content like Arenas, Mythic +, or Raiding.
    I never said a word about police brutality or systematic racism. People will gather behind false narratives as well as true ones. That was the point

    Viable is one thing. Optimal is something. Every specc in the game and every talent setup is VIABLE at the moment. And will also be with the covenants. What some people dont understand is that they assume their power is the most important thing you bring. Its not.

    Some people also have this odd perception that if something is below other specc, its not viable.

    If someone doesnt want to bring you to mythic+ because one of your abilities are wrong then what kind of silly people is that?

    Why would you even do a group with those people? They are simply wrong to not bring you just because you do at most 20 percent less aoe damage.

    Also, if its bursting you dont want to aoe anyway so thats when you will shine and the others not so much.

    It didn't claim a I was bad overall. I brought up ROA as an example of being bad in one fight is fine.

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