Page 11 of 23 FirstFirst ...
9
10
11
12
13
21
... LastLast
  1. #201
    High Overlord Nevad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    170
    Quote Originally Posted by Kithelle View Post
    Because The Legion doesn't go to other planets conquering or converting other races into their cause....no...The Legion couldn't possibly have found the Orcs.

    Also lets not blame the Orcs for being power hungry and drinking the demon blood in the first place...no they aren't to blame at all just like the Horde isn't to blame for just going with the flow and attempted genocide
    I feel like you missed my /s there or maybe im the one getting wooshed here, but hey lets keep playing this game.

    Could the Legion have found the Orcs anyway? Sure. Would they have corrupted them like so many other races? Probably?

    Biggest reason they got corrupted was that Kil'jaeden had such a hardon for screwing Velen and his people that the orcs, with their civilization being effectively in the iron age with a very shamanistic society, were a prime target to corrupt. So the Orcs were told by their ancestors, that they can actually talk to, that the Draenei were treacherous. Of course this was a lie all concocted by Kil'jaeden. Mind you the corruption of the Orcs was not a "flip of the switch" and happened over multiple years (we have a real world example of that). I am a bit fuzzy of the Orcs were told it was demon blood and not just a potion that would make them stronger. Sounds like a good deal one sip and boom you are better than you were before.

    My biggest point is that the Draenei knew they were hunted by the Legion yet they still settled on a world with sentient life on it putting that life in danger, if they hadn't then the WoW universe would probably look very different. But one thing lead to another and we got the situation on Azeroth and players going with the "No U" style of arguments.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kithelle View Post
    Draenei rebelled against Sargeras....Orcs not so much, ones who didn't drink the blood kept to themsevles. Alliance didn't attempt any genocide so I don't know where in your headcanon that came from
    The Draenai ran away from Sargeras no rebellion there, if any Orc clan (see Frostwolves) would have fought back they would have been slaughtered by the now demon corrupted Orcs. Just a nitpick.
    Last edited by Nevad; 2020-10-05 at 10:44 PM.

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Pawpurr View Post
    Or in an Azerothian court, where most of the horde turned against Sylvannas and the loyalists who were mostly Forsaken - And there are plenty who remember the other atrocities all the way back to the Wrathgate.

    It's just that the Forsaken have really good lawyers down at Blizz HQ.
    If the horde... thought that killing all the undead was morally correct... they would have killed them a long time ago.
    Thus it is an alliance POV that killing all the undead is morally correct and thus not genocide.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kithelle View Post
    You obviously aren't worth the time because you want to lie and make up facts...ignoring logic to call anything genocide

    Sad how delusional some Horde players are in their desperation to defend the Horde and acts of Sylvanas...sadly this isn't even the worst. Still remember when a pal of yours tried to blame Sylvanas' actions on Anduin...that took the cake

    Try harder
    You are mistaken if you think that I am trying to defend the acts of Sylvanas... She is genocidal...lets kill her
    You are also mistaken if you think I am trying to defend the atrocities committed by Sylvanas... They were atocities... lets kill her and any who stand with her for them

    You are also mistaken if you think the alliance has not attempted to commit atrocities
    You are also mistaken if you put all the blame on orcs(as a race)... this is as mistaken as putting all the blame on the Draenei(race)

    The truth is that both sides have done terrible things...So what do we do now??
    Well we either do genocide on the Horde(as punishment ... either in the form of slavery or in the form of killing them all or in some other form)
    OR
    We accept what is true.. we accept the atrocities committed...And we find a way for us to live in peace for the future.

    I prefer the latter

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Kithelle View Post
    Because The Legion doesn't go to other planets conquering or converting other races into their cause....no...The Legion couldn't possibly have found the Orcs.

    Also lets not blame the Orcs for being power hungry and drinking the demon blood in the first place...no they aren't to blame at all just like the Horde isn't to blame for just going with the flow and attempted genocide
    Pretty sure WoD proved that even without the Demonblood, the Orcs acted just the same and carried out the same slaughter.
    BASIC CAMPFIRE for WARCHIEF UK Prime Minister!

  4. #204
    High Overlord Nevad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    170
    Quote Originally Posted by rogueMatthias View Post
    Pretty sure WoD proved that even without the Demonblood, the Orcs acted just the same and carried out the same slaughter.
    Depends on when in the timeline Garrosh comes in to fuck shit up and the alternative timeline writing is convoluted to the max imo. Also i don't know HOW Garrosh got all the Orc clans to follow him so someone can probably educate me there. Probably blabbed to his dad about being in chains and slavery and that the Draenei would do the same thing or some such, anyone know for sure?

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by dojichan View Post
    If the horde... thought that killing all the undead was morally correct... they would have killed them a long time ago.
    Thus it is an alliance POV that killing all the undead is morally correct and thus not genocide.
    You have the wrong idea, the horde is not making its choices based on morals. The reason the relationship with the Forsaken was maintained was strategic - They were Garrosh's favorite cannon fodder to send first, The areas they control are very important, Without them the horde loses EK up to Silvermoon, and at that point what would the Blood Elves do?

    Meanwhile the Forsaken have shown no qualms about killing other horde members with plague and friendly fire. When Sylvannas nuked her own army at Lordaeron, did none of those horde soldiers have family or kin?

    The players of horde may feel unified but canonically speaking the horde council is barely held together, at least if Racist Roux's writings are considered canon.

  6. #206
    Banned Syegfryed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Darkshore, Killing Living and Dead elves
    Posts
    11,515
    Quote Originally Posted by rogueMatthias View Post
    Pretty sure WoD proved that even without the Demonblood, the Orcs acted just the same and carried out the same slaughter.
    it wasn't te same, and any race is capable of slaughter

  7. #207
    Epic! Redroniksre's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Cambridge, Ontario
    Posts
    1,674
    I mean i love, to a degree, the lore and all. And it is fun to debate the ethical nature of the fucked up things characters do. But for some looking for harsh in game consequences and claiming the other players are bad people...It just a game y'all holy hell.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by Pawpurr View Post
    You have the wrong idea, the horde is not making its choices based on morals. The reason the relationship with the Forsaken was maintained was strategic - They were Garrosh's favorite cannon fodder to send first, The areas they control are very important, Without them the horde loses EK up to Silvermoon, and at that point what would the Blood Elves do?

    Meanwhile the Forsaken have shown no qualms about killing other horde members with plague and friendly fire. When Sylvannas nuked her own army at Lordaeron, did none of those horde soldiers have family or kin?

    The players of horde may feel unified but canonically speaking the horde council is barely held together, at least if Racist Roux's writings are considered canon.
    You mistake my message. I am not saying that morals are the primary reason... I am saying that they clearly think of them as a sentient culture...

    I am saying to imagine this
    you(or any group) go out and slaughter every single forsaken(down to the last "child")
    And someone accused you of genocide
    so you came before an Azerothean court(that was both horde and alliance)...

    I find it hard to believe that Thrall, Baine, Lorthemar, Ji etc... would agree with the assessment that it was not genocide...
    Specially with all the dialogue they have with Lilian Voss...

    Where as if you went before an entirely ALLIANCE court... many people would say "Yeah you killed those abominations" ... "They were never living in the first place"

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by rogueMatthias View Post
    Pretty sure WoD proved that even without the Demonblood, the Orcs acted just the same and carried out the same slaughter.
    Truth... the original Orc culture encouraged genocide... It was considered a way of showing power and thus a viture...

    With that said, the Horde does not seem to consider it a virtue. They evolved

  9. #209
    High Overlord Nevad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    170
    Quote Originally Posted by dojichan View Post

    - - - Updated - - -



    Truth... the original Orc culture encouraged genocide... It was considered a way of showing power and thus a viture...

    With that said, the Horde does not seem to consider it a virtue. They evolved
    Citation needed. From what i have read before the Legion screwed with them the Orcs were a shamanistic society split into tribes and the only other race they were at war with were the Ogres. Not sure where the genocide thing is coming from. Unless you mean post Legion then yea i might agree.
    Last edited by Nevad; 2020-10-05 at 11:42 PM.

  10. #210
    Elemental Lord Kithelle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Somewhere where canon still exists
    Posts
    8,281
    Quote Originally Posted by Nevad View Post
    I feel like you missed my /s there or maybe im the one getting wooshed here, but hey lets keep playing this game.

    Could the Legion have found the Orcs anyway? Sure. Would they have corrupted them like so many other races? Probably?

    Biggest reason they got corrupted was that Kil'jaeden had such a hardon for screwing Velen and his people that the orcs, with their civilization being effectively in the iron age with a very shamanistic society, were a prime target to corrupt. So the Orcs were told by their ancestors, that they can actually talk to, that the Draenei were treacherous. Of course this was a lie all concocted by Kil'jaeden. Mind you the corruption of the Orcs was not a "flip of the switch" and happened over multiple years (we have a real world example of that). I am a bit fuzzy of the Orcs were told it was demon blood and not just a potion that would make them stronger. Sounds like a good deal one sip and boom you are better than you were before.

    My biggest point is that the Draenei knew they were hunted by the Legion yet they still settled on a world with sentient life on it putting that life in danger, if they hadn't then the WoW universe would probably look very different. But one thing lead to another and we got the situation on Azeroth and players going with the "No U" style of arguments.



    The Draenai ran away from Sargeras no rebellion there, if any Orc clan (see Frostwolves) would have fought back they would have been slaughtered by the now demon corrupted Orcs. Just a nitpick.
    The Draenei were looking for allies to help fight the Legion because they knew they couldn't do it alone, the uncorrupt Orcs just kept to themselves as their world was ripped apart
    #WithoutRespectWeReject

  11. #211
    The fan forums are all the same, regardless of patch, regardless of medium, regardless of intellectual property being discussed. Regardless of real life parallels.

    "They didnt do things the way I want them to so its wrong"
    "They're guilty by association because people who look similar to them did bad things, it doesnt matter that they personally did not do the act in question, their proximity is reason enough"
    "Just because there was a strong holdout faction within the opposition doing things wrong means nothing, they're all evil"
    "A rebellion with similar goals to our own is clearly not as noble as we are. Still guilty"
    "Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Isnt that right King _____ (who is a good guy for now)"
    "The author isnt me and therefore is wrong"

    Saurfang would not kill Malfurion dishonorably and lied about it to save his life, ultimately giving his own life in order to stop Sylvanas. How evil of him.
    Reminds me of this other guy who was part of a faction he came to disagree with after having profited from their misgivings...
    "And so, we pretend Oskar Schindler was not rewarded the Israeli "Righteous Among the Nations" award (Highest a non-Israeli can get) and instead was executed. Despite having been a member of the faction that was the enemy directly, sabotage of their war effort and going to great lengths and personal ruin to secure the safety of our people was just what he owed us. Redemption is not possible, because poster#1124 deemed it so"

    Would it make more sense if Sylvanas loyalists were forced to take a repentance quest or given negative faction reputation modifiers to work through? Absolutely.
    Can you paint everyone in a deeply personalized narrative story with a single brush because of their inborn affiliation regardless of their personal actions and have it be accurate? Sure, right after you get done your reddit post about how stupid racism is...

  12. #212
    High Overlord Nevad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    170
    Quote Originally Posted by Kithelle View Post
    The Draenei were looking for allies to help fight the Legion because they knew they couldn't do it alone, the uncorrupt Orcs just kept to themselves as their world was ripped apart
    Guess we might be remembering different things then cause from what i know the Draenei were looking for a safe place to hide from the Legion and Draenor was it, there was a group of them that apparently split away from Velens group and later became the Army of the Light. The uncorrupted Orcs (one clan) didn't really have many options since they cant fight the old Horde and asking the Draenei, that were at that moment at war with the old Horde, probably wouldn't be a good idea and result in their deaths.

  13. #213
    Banned Syegfryed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Darkshore, Killing Living and Dead elves
    Posts
    11,515
    Quote Originally Posted by Kithelle View Post
    The Draenei were looking for allies to help fight the Legion because they knew they couldn't do it alone, the uncorrupt Orcs just kept to themselves as their world was ripped apart
    thats simple not true at all, the only ones who fight against the Legion were the ones in the army of the light.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Saurfang would not kill Malfurion dishonorably and lied about it to save his life, ultimately giving his own life in order to stop Sylvanas. How evil of him.
    Saurfang would have done that, because it was an direct order... the main problem here is how blizzard made things, they could have highlighted how Saurfang was going to kill him, but a moment of hesitation, you know conscience, was enough for him to flee.

    Would it make more sense if Sylvanas loyalists were forced to take a repentance quest or given negative faction reputation modifiers to work through? Absolutely.
    ..
    Blizz would never do that honestly, but the scolding at least, should be done only for those.

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Yeah, he's a hypocrite, but you have to agree the action was not sanctioned by the Horde.

    So let's take a hypothetical. Anduin goes nuts and expels all but light-worshipping lunatics from the Alliance. Murders a bunch of people, destroys cities. The rest of the now-rebel leaders eventually overthrow him and take back control of the Alliance. You'd consider those former rebels responsible for what Anduin did because he called his group the Alliance and did those things under its banner? Cause that's what you're doing

    Garrosh's invasions of Ashenvale was at least partially justified. After WC3 the orcs and night elves made a deal. The Horde gather lumber with the druid's supervision so they don't hurt the forest and trade food to the orcs which they need cause they live in a desert. The orcs in turn trade them other goods. The night elves unilaterally broke this treaty after Wrathgate even after it was proven the Horde was not at fault. How many governments in real life can unilaterially break a treaty and expect no retaliation?

    Besides that, Theramore was used as a staging group for attacked into Horde territories who were completely uninvolved in the Ashenvale campaign. Every Horde member killed and Horde town attacked through Dustwallow, all of the Barrens, and Mulgore who had nothing to do with Garrosh. Imagine the US attacks Canada so England lands troops in Panana and cuts a bloody swath through all of Central America to get at the US.

    - - - Updated - - -



    The one that was denounced was the bombing of the druid school in Stonetalon. It was a neutral group blown up by a warmongering general. Garrosh was pissed off at him for numerous reasons, including bombing the hell out of land he wanted to clam for the Horde.

    As for Southshore, it was a landing and staging point for every Alliance attack against Lordaeron. Southshore vs Tarren Mill is one of the most infamous conflicts. Also consider in lore where all the troops supporting the Stormpikes in Alterac Valley would have to land and supply up before heading there. Aiding and abetting the enemy is a valid charge in real life war tribunals.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I made sure to specify cause people get all hung up on Theramore having a civilian population which was evacuated before the fighting, and its use in Alliance aggression against Horde holdings in their own lands.
    Soutshore vs Tarren Mill is purely “gameplay” conflict and was perpetrated by players, without actual lore base behind it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by dojichan View Post
    If the horde... thought that killing all the undead was morally correct... they would have killed them a long time ago.
    Thus it is an alliance POV that killing all the undead is morally correct and thus not genocide.

    - - - Updated - - -



    You are mistaken if you think that I am trying to defend the acts of Sylvanas... She is genocidal...lets kill her
    You are also mistaken if you think I am trying to defend the atrocities committed by Sylvanas... They were atocities... lets kill her and any who stand with her for them

    You are also mistaken if you think the alliance has not attempted to commit atrocities
    You are also mistaken if you put all the blame on orcs(as a race)... this is as mistaken as putting all the blame on the Draenei(race)

    The truth is that both sides have done terrible things...So what do we do now??
    Well we either do genocide on the Horde(as punishment ... either in the form of slavery or in the form of killing them all or in some other form)
    OR
    We accept what is true.. we accept the atrocities committed...And we find a way for us to live in peace for the future.

    I prefer the latter
    Peace is hardly a possibility when horde keeps repeating its mistakes to a letter and then claiming that it “was tricked”. Plus even after sylvanas is gone we dont know if they moved their forces from Ashenvale or did anything aside from half hearted apology from Thrall and an empty promises to make peace with night elfs. You know, the faction they aggrieved the most by genociding them and forcing them to abandon their ancestral land.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Soutshore vs Tarren Mill is purely “gameplay” conflict and was perpetrated by players, without actual lore base behind it.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Peace is hardly a possibility when horde keeps repeating its mistakes to a letter and then claiming that it “was tricked”. Plus even after sylvanas is gone we dont know if they moved their forces from Ashenvale or did anything aside from half hearted apology from Thrall and an empty promises to make peace with night elfs. You know, the faction they aggrieved the most by genociding them and forcing them to abandon their ancestral land.
    Why do they need ashenvale? They don't even own land near it anymore.<3
    With that said... I would LOVE to see de-escalation on all the border zones before I trust this peace.

  16. #216
    Banned FelPlague's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Ontario,Canada
    Posts
    22,040
    Quote Originally Posted by Nevad View Post
    The Draenai ran away from Sargeras no rebellion there, if any Orc clan (see Frostwolves) would have fought back they would have been slaughtered by the now demon corrupted Orcs. Just a nitpick.
    there was a few rebellions up to the whole "alright were running" but it was small cause the demons were hiding their activity within the draenei. something i guess they didnt need for the orcs.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by dojichan View Post
    Why do they need ashenvale? They don't even own land near it anymore.<3
    With that said... I would LOVE to see de-escalation on all the border zones before I trust this peace.
    The elves still own darkshire, its not COMPLETLY destroyed, even after the burning.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nevad View Post
    Guess we might be remembering different things then cause from what i know the Draenei were looking for a safe place to hide from the Legion and Draenor was it, there was a group of them that apparently split away from Velens group and later became the Army of the Light. The uncorrupted Orcs (one clan) didn't really have many options since they cant fight the old Horde and asking the Draenei, that were at that moment at war with the old Horde, probably wouldn't be a good idea and result in their deaths.
    They looked for a place, but an attack caused them to crash onto draenor, they didnt choose to land there.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    The elves still own darkshire, its not COMPLETLY destroyed, even after the burning.
    I know. I was making a funny

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by dojichan View Post
    Why do they need ashenvale? They don't even own land near it anymore.<3
    With that said... I would LOVE to see de-escalation on all the border zones before I trust this peace.
    They own Darkshore and there are still battles going on in Ashenvale itself as according to mission table. So that was a really dumb piece sarcasm.

  19. #219
    Banned FelPlague's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Ontario,Canada
    Posts
    22,040
    Quote Originally Posted by dojichan View Post
    I know. I was making a funny
    ok hard to tell sometimes.

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    ok hard to tell sometimes.
    It is Issue with innerwebs is you never know the tone(and people typically assume the worst)

    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    They own Darkshore and there are still battles going on in Ashenvale itself as according to mission table. So that was a really dumb piece sarcasm.
    It wasn't sarcasm. It was dark humor... to each their own...

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •