Page 23 of 23 FirstFirst ...
13
21
22
23
  1. #441
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    the latest canon lore on the issue being Cata Forsaken intro where the omniscient narrator stated the Forsaken were falsely accused for the Wrathgate.
    The latest canon lore is Chronicle vol. 3, which states Putress and Varimathras may have staged the Wrathgate, but the Lich Queen ordered the creation of the plague that made it possible. The Forsaken worked on it as one of their primary efforts from vanilla starting zones up until they had it "perfect" in Wrath.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jinnobi View Post
    But the odd reality is that Horde fanboys don't seem as viciously opposed to facts and reason as their counterparts
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Welcome to the lore forum. Stay, read awhile, and we'll see if you keep this opinion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  2. #442
    It's silly to me that simply creating weapons is considered bad in itself. By that logic blacksmiths and mages of WoW's world are also evil by default.
    Last edited by bagina; 2020-10-21 at 10:02 PM.

  3. #443
    Quote Originally Posted by bagina View Post
    It's silly to me that simply creating weapons is considered bad in itself. By that logic blacksmiths and mages of WoW's world are also evil by default.
    Are they operating dungeons, employing torture, and testing those weapons on civilians?
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  4. #444
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinnobi View Post
    You mean the faction that actively usurped their corrupt leader, mostly because she was mean to their enemy?

    Perspective is a funny thing. You've made your bias very obvious in your forum signature.

    There is a long, long history of Alliance fanboys; both on this website and across the internet starting even before WoW beta was opened. The times have changed but the mentality has remained the same.
    I'm not implying that there isn't Horde fanboys. On the contrary, there are plenty. But the odd reality is that Horde fanboys don't seem as viciously opposed to facts and reason as their counterparts -- this seems to apply even to regular "fans" that are not passionate to add the suffix -boy.

    I don't know why exactly. I wish it weren't so.
    Even in the most recent war, only 1 horde member was against what was happening, Baine. Blizzard even went out of their way to highlight why some champs who had no reason to hate the alliance, did.
    For the Alliance, and for Azeroth!

  5. #445
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    The latest canon lore is Chronicle vol. 3, which states Putress and Varimathras may have staged the Wrathgate, but the Lich Queen ordered the creation of the plague that made it possible. The Forsaken worked on it as one of their primary efforts from vanilla starting zones up until they had it "perfect" in Wrath.
    That... was in the lore long before Chronicle v3. The Chronicles only reiterated that. And it's not like the development of the Blight was even any secret by that point. The Horde knew the Forsaken were working on it and were close to finishing it in Dragonblight and the Orc commander there was quite happy about the prospect of using it against the Scourge. Either way, it has nothing to do with the topic of who was responsible for the attack at the Wrathgate. I.e. the topic that was addressed in what you quoted...
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  6. #446
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    That... was in the lore long before Chronicle v3. The Chronicles only reiterated that. And it's not like the development of the Blight was even any secret by that point. The Horde knew the Forsaken were working on it and were close to finishing it in Dragonblight and the Orc commander there was quite happy about the prospect of using it against the Scourge. Either way, it has nothing to do with the topic of who was responsible for the attack at the Wrathgate. I.e. the topic that was addressed in what you quoted...
    Chronicle vol. 3 (quoted you the exact passages in another post) doesn't back the claim that the Forsaken were "falsely accused" as you put it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  7. #447
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post


    It's confirmed on page that they were indeed sent to Silithus. Long before the Explorer's League. And, again, Shaw told Anduin that he already has people working on getting more information, before Anduin even ask (plus as I already said, he had to get the first sample and the information about Goblin operation somehow as well, meaning that the SI:7 was already active there before the book even began). So the claim that we have no idea when it happens in relation to the Explorer's League stuff is just wrong. So would the attack need its own confirmation when it happens in the game and isn't contradicted in any way by the book? The Goblin attack on the Explorer's League isn't confirmed in the game either, does that mean it didn't happen?
    The SI:7 are already well established by the time the player (Horde or Alliance) gets there and hostilities get started, so we got only impressions of how much time passed either way.

    The entire thing is neither here nor there anyway since a few Goblins in Silithus were part of neither the stated casus belli for the war nor were they the actual reason for it, indeed for so purportedly powerful a substance Azerite is remarkably absent from all of BFA's story except when Magni wants us to massacre the locals in order to gather moar of it from woons. Just like the Gathering, Silithus was a tension building excuse that the narrative quickly forgot even before Sylvanas being an omnicidal madwoman was (lol) revealed as the primary reason for the war.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

  8. #448
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    The SI:7 are already well established by the time the player (Horde or Alliance) gets there and hostilities get started, so we got only impressions of how much time passed either way.

    The entire thing is neither here nor there anyway since a few Goblins in Silithus were part of neither the stated casus belli for the war nor were they the actual reason for it, indeed for so purportedly powerful a substance Azerite is remarkably absent from all of BFA's story except when Magni wants us to massacre the locals in order to gather moar of it from woons. Just like the Gathering, Silithus was a tension building excuse that the narrative quickly forgot even before Sylvanas being an omnicidal madwoman was (lol) revealed as the primary reason for the war.
    Emphasis mine. Those facts don't fit the narrative that BfA was somehow the Alliance's fault, so expect them to be ignored.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  9. #449
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Chronicle vol. 3 (quoted you the exact passages in another post) doesn't back the claim that the Forsaken were "falsely accused" as you put it.
    It's a good thing then that the Cata Forsaken intro, as I already explicitly pointed out, covered the topic of Forsaken culpability for the Wrathgate. So you pointing out that the Chronicle reiterated that Sylvanas ordered the creation of the Blight achieves squat. Those are two different topics.


    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Emphasis mine. Those facts don't fit the narrative that BfA was somehow the Alliance's fault, so expect them to be ignored.
    Yeah, except for the part where both of these tangents were something I talked about in my first reply to @Jastall on this sub-topic. But that didn't fit the narrative of your usual attempts at throwing shade because actual arguments are hard, so it was expected to be ignored.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  10. #450
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    It's a good thing then that the Cata Forsaken intro, as I already explicitly pointed out, covered the topic of Forsaken culpability for the Wrathgate. So you pointing out that the Chronicle reiterated that Sylvanas ordered the creation of the Blight achieves squat. Those are two different topics.
    1) Chronicle is newer. New lore trumps old.
    2) The passage quoted to you links those topics rather clearly, but do keep cherry picking only what supports you.

    Yeah, except for the part where both of these tangents were something I talked about in my first reply to @Jastall on this sub-topic. But that didn't fit the narrative of your usual attempts at throwing shade because actual arguments are hard, so it was expected to be ignored.
    You ignore actual arguments, you ignore sources that prove you wrong, you play word games, so might as well laugh at your bullshit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  11. #451
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    The statement being made is that Varian was willing to tentatively accept the Wrathgate wasn't on the Horde, fought through Undercity, saw the horrors there which only added to the motivations for war. He challenges Thrall, and refers to Sylvie as an evil witch and the Horde as a band of murderers and thieves. If you need that explicitly spelled out, you must have a damn hard time reading anything beyond academic papers.
    Except directly after killing Putress and witnessing the horrors in his chambers (but before he knew Thrall was there and he got pissed about), he railed about the dark hearts of the Orcs. Contrary to your typical attempts at character assassination because you can't construct an argument worth a damn and need to compensate, I don't need things explicitly spelled out. But there's a difference between reading between the lines and making shit up. You're doing the latter here. Neither the quest nor the Chronicle showcase any strong emotional response specifically to the test subjects from Varian. At any given occasion he railed about the Orcs, Orcs and more Orcs.

    This is Night Elves in Ghostlands all over again. You claim something about an event that's not supported by anything and then bemoan people for "not reading between the lines" and pretend that magically validates your position. It's like a pigeon playing chess.


    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Meanwhile, you twist it into this "Varian totally declared the war over Wrathgate" bullshit that NO ONE is claiming, but then you'd have to actually argue against something other than your own fantasies of what's said here.
    Riiiight. Except "Varian totally declared the war over Wrathgate" does not equal "Varian totally declared the war solely over the Wrathgate". Yet you're treating it that way. Because you have no actual argument.


    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Oh, page 173 also calls bullshit on your claim that Varian didn't care about the Wrathgate. I won't encourage piracy, but it's not hard to find Chronicles online for anyone to verify the following quote:
    Quote from Chronicle that proves Feanoro wrong
    Good gracious me, would you look at that! It DOESN'T say the Wrath Gate didn't matter to Varian like you've been trying to claim. In fact, it says he was plenty pissed about it! Since you have to defend the Corpse Bride's honor, you distort what everyone says into a strawman that war was declared over the Wrath Gate, then berate people over your bullshit strawman, and have the unmitigated gall to accuse others of lying.
    Good gracious me, I didn't realize "No matter who was truly responsible for the attack at the Wrath Gate" indicated that Varian did care about the topic of Horde's culpability over the Wrathgate (which is what I actually said) at the time. How silly of me But since words actually still mean things and since you had to dishonestly distort what I actually said (in regards to both the Varian thing and the declaration of war bit) despite quoting it word for word, my gall is plenty mitigated.


    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Oh, and for a freebie, another quote from the same page:
    As Warchief with the power of life and death over every member of the Horde, Thrall had both the power and responsibility to know what the people bearing his banner were up to. We'll skip the word games about him knowing every peon's latest bowel movement and similar deflections, if you don't mind. The plague was not some casual garage weekend project, it was one of the central efforts of the Forsaken. Thrall either knew about it and did nothing, making him complicit, or did not know and was therefore incompetent. In either case, the Horde is responsible for the plague.
    The Horde knowing about the Plague is one of the central points of Dragonblight questline for the Horde, which you'd know if you had any clue about the lore. The Horde being responsible for the Blight is immaterial to the topic though, so I'm not sure why you're even bringing this up. It's weak even as an attempt at grasping at straws.


    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Alliance lives were lost to that plague at the Wrath Gate, and you seriously want to claim that it had absolutely no bearing on the declaration of war? Then I suggest you stick to academic papers which don't employ nuance, context, and other writing techniques. If you insist on continuing to read fiction, Dick and Jane might be about your speed.
    If Putress stabbed them all to death with a dagger forged in Stormwind, would that make Stormwind responsible? Not really. Yet here you are, trying to conflate the creation of a weapon with how it's used by other parties. Also, what's with the repeated salt about academic papers? Though given how you think they don't employ nuance or even context, it's likely you've never even touched one, so I suppose the answer is quite apparent.

    Infracted.
    Last edited by Mehrunes; 2020-10-28 at 12:04 AM. Reason: Received Infraction
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  12. #452
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Still more word twisting, trying to pretend he didn't say what he said.
    Yes yes, complain about "character assassination" when damn near every post you make in this forum involves personal attacks.

    How cute, you make assumptions about my education! My turn! You clearly have only worked in the soft fields. Real subjects' papers don't play writing games, they state facts. Pretty sad that I have to spell that out too, but I'll bear in mind you were some form of non-STEM in the future and won't make that comparison again. Maybe I should use multiplication tables when talking about your inability to read between lines.

    Infracted.
    Last edited by Aucald; 2020-10-28 at 12:01 AM. Reason: Received Infraction
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  13. #453
    Elemental Lord GreenJesus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    So Cal
    Posts
    8,295
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Yeah, pointing out that the burden of proof on your amazing claims like "Varian totally declared the war over Wrathgate, that's why Chronicle v3 says he didn't care about Horde's culpability in regards to the Wrathgate when declaring the war" lies on you (and that for some very mysterious reason you're always refusing to meet it) is totally such a lack of arguments on my part If you're going to blindly parrot what's said to you, make sure it at least makes sense. And, pray tell, what did I cherry-pick and what words did I twist there? Humor me.




    If you think about it, excluding the locals of the regions the Forsaken expanded into, in Cata the Alliance picked more fights with Goblins than they did with the Forsaken.




    Except since Vanilla Alliance has been the aggressor way more often than the Horde.




    The Forsaken lost multiple rounds of the tug of war in Gilneas and got defeated by a bunch of High Elves at Quel'Danil.
    It makes sense. Would you rather fight cows that get punished for fighting back against you or undead that will turn your soldiers into crops and don't know what the term "morals" or "ethics" means.

  14. #454
    Titan Maxilian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Dominican Republic
    Posts
    11,336
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Bwonsamdi wanted a prominent Horde leader to kill the Warchief, he gives no fucks about the faction whatsoever (nor should he, mind you) and the limit of his interactions with the Horde PC were binding them with a blatantly one-sided deal and helping defend Dazar'alor because Rastakhan strong-armed him to do so. Vol'jin would have been a good choice, yeah, but Bwonsamdi is about as much of a Horde character as a Naaru is an Alliance one.
    Well i understand why he says that Bwonsamdi is a Horde character, he is mainly a Zandalari character one way or the other, so he's connected to the Horde.

    Even if he's not fan of it (or fan of part of it, in this case, the Forsaken)

  15. #455
    the genocide and child murdering is just a prank bro, just a prank. cant you take a joke?!
    BfA = second worst product ever made by Blizzard.
    War3 Reforged took the title for worst product.

  16. #456
    Legendary! Soon-TM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Netherstorm
    Posts
    6,728
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenJesus View Post
    It makes sense. Would you rather fight cows that get punished for fighting back against you or undead that will turn your soldiers into crops and don't know what the term "morals" or "ethics" means.
    To be honest, it's amazing that the Horde managed to get any military victories at all, given how a major race leader consistently puts Humans' wellbeing above his own people's.
    Quote Originally Posted by Danuser
    we created a story structure for Sylvanas that, on the surface, echoed many broad strokes of the road Garrosh took (...). These parallels were intentional. But it's within the nuance that we sought to show the story grow and change.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thage View Post
    BFA was about as nuanced as a golf club to the testicles/ovaries.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •