What's the scolding horde players get at the start of the Ardenweald's covenant?

[Aresk]

Again with the blaming of an entire faction.

Alrighty then. I’d say a the loss of a tree is not even close to the payback for the scourge, burning legion and concentration camps.

We can also blame SL on the Alliance since it was Arthas and the legion who set it all in motion.

The Scourge were led by an orc, so pretty much any claim against a corrupt Arthas falls back to the Horde up through the end of TFT. WotLK is allegedly entirely Arthas in there, no longer Ner'zhul, but before that, Ner'zhul is the one who was influencing Kel'thuzad and controlling the undead, including Arthas, if Sylvanas' claims of mind-control are to be believed. Given how much human Arthas was a contrarian to his superiors and how much a death knight Arthas was submissive to the Lich King, I see no reason to suspect Sylvanas was lying about that.

But as you point out, blaming an entire faction is pointless. Both Alliance and Horde have done a lot of damage. Does it really matter the degrees? I think I've very rarely seen an atrocity list comparison result in members of either side professing a change of opinion about the topic.

[Raisei]

The Vindicaar is currently in high orbit over Azeroth, at least based on the Lightforged recruitment scenario. Due to its reliance on Argunite following the Argus story-arc, it may well be close to or out of fuel and thus was unable to contribute in the Fourth War.

I will check my currency tab, surely I still got enough of the stuff left to fuel the ship for a few years. So the next time we have a genocidal enemy to beat we do not have to let one of our best weapons gather dust.

Well, we all know that the real reason was simply that the Vindicaar would have given the Alliance an easy win by melting Sylvanas from Orbit (mhm... do Banshees melt? Probably more ...evaporate) making most of the plot pointless. Suspension of disbelief as usual.

It's the same question as: Where were the Dragons? Well, in the Chamber of the Heart ofc. And why aren't they on the Alliance side after Teldrassil? Of the 5 Flights, 4 would definately stand with the Alliance (only the Bronze are a wild card, since they see a really really big picture) against Sylvanas. So why is Orgrimmar not a melted puddle in the ground? Because then the plot would have ended in 8.0. Even without their aspect powers they are 4 enormous dragons, easily enough to clear out that city.

It makes no real sense, it just has to be this way, so that the Horde has a chance and the story gains drama. Same reason why the Alliance troops plus the Horde rebels are suddenly inferior in number to just Sylvanas and her Loyalists. If we could just roll over Orgrimmar, there is no tension.

[Varodoc]

I will check my currency tab, surely I still got enough of the stuff left to fuel the ship for a few years. So the next time we have a genocidal enemy to beat we do not have to let one of our best weapons gather dust.

Well, we all know that the real reason was simply that the Vindicaar would have given the Alliance an easy win by melting Sylvanas from Orbit (mhm... do Banshees melt? Probably more ...evaporate) making most of the plot pointless. Suspension of disbelief as usual.

It's the same question as: Where were the Dragons? Well, in the Chamber of the Heart ofc. And why aren't they on the Alliance side after Teldrassil? Of the 5 Flights, 4 would definately stand with the Alliance (only the Bronze are a wild card, since they see a really really big picture) against Sylvanas. So why is Orgrimmar not a melted puddle in the ground? Because then the plot would have ended in 8.0. Even without their aspect powers they are 4 enormous dragons, easily enough to clear out that city.

It makes no real sense, it just has to be this way, so that the Horde has a chance and the story gains drama. Same reason why the Alliance troops plus the Horde rebels are suddenly inferior in number to just Sylvanas and her Loyalists. If we could just roll over Orgrimmar, there is no tension.

Actually the Vindicaar did not even have to attack anyone to secure Alliance victory. Its teleportation skills alone would've ensured Alliance triumph in the War of Thorns, because the Alliance armies from the EK would've quickly reached Teldrassil and turned the tide of the war in their favour. It's the same reason why Alleria could teleport an entire army at the Battle of Lordaeron, but didn't teleport Anduin's forces to Teldrassil during the War of Thorns. Horde plot armor.

[DonChalk]

[QUOTE=Accendor;52677688]But they do - which is a big problem. Horde simply should have a different quest giver here.

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So you're telling me, if ALL of the souls of your people were trapped and the ONLY way to get them out of eternal torture time was to use someone who admittedly DID have a hand in sending them there, they'd decline it? Yeah, I don't think so. They make it clear they do NOT trust the horde player, but it's literally the only option.

[Vaedan]

I will check my currency tab, surely I still got enough of the stuff left to fuel the ship for a few years. So the next time we have a genocidal enemy to beat we do not have to let one of our best weapons gather dust.

Well, we all know that the real reason was simply that the Vindicaar would have given the Alliance an easy win by melting Sylvanas from Orbit (mhm... do Banshees melt? Probably more ...evaporate) making most of the plot pointless. Suspension of disbelief as usual.

It's the same question as: Where were the Dragons? Well, in the Chamber of the Heart ofc. And why aren't they on the Alliance side after Teldrassil? Of the 5 Flights, 4 would definately stand with the Alliance (only the Bronze are a wild card, since they see a really really big picture) against Sylvanas. So why is Orgrimmar not a melted puddle in the ground? Because then the plot would have ended in 8.0. Even without their aspect powers they are 4 enormous dragons, easily enough to clear out that city.

It makes no real sense, it just has to be this way, so that the Horde has a chance and the story gains drama. Same reason why the Alliance troops plus the Horde rebels are suddenly inferior in number to just Sylvanas and her Loyalists. If we could just roll over Orgrimmar, there is no tension.

Vindicaar was build by draenei on Azeroth, so I guess Argunite was not the only fuel it can use. We did get to Argus on Vindicaar without it...

It was said draenei were completely out of resources following Argus campaign, so they could not help immediately during War of Thorns, but how long it takes for them to gather these resources is beyond me. I'd think the whole Alliance could actually harvest some stuff to have Vindicaar for events like Battle of Dazar'Alor or confrontation of Sylvanas at Orgrimmar, where such a technology could save countless Alliance lives.

[Aucald]

I will check my currency tab, surely I still got enough of the stuff left to fuel the ship for a few years. So the next time we have a genocidal enemy to beat we do not have to let one of our best weapons gather dust.

Well, we all know that the real reason was simply that the Vindicaar would have given the Alliance an easy win by melting Sylvanas from Orbit (mhm... do Banshees melt? Probably more ...evaporate) making most of the plot pointless. Suspension of disbelief as usual.

It's the same question as: Where were the Dragons? Well, in the Chamber of the Heart ofc. And why aren't they on the Alliance side after Teldrassil? Of the 5 Flights, 4 would definately stand with the Alliance (only the Bronze are a wild card, since they see a really really big picture) against Sylvanas. So why is Orgrimmar not a melted puddle in the ground? Because then the plot would have ended in 8.0. Even without their aspect powers they are 4 enormous dragons, easily enough to clear out that city.

It makes no real sense, it just has to be this way, so that the Horde has a chance and the story gains drama. Same reason why the Alliance troops plus the Horde rebels are suddenly inferior in number to just Sylvanas and her Loyalists. If we could just roll over Orgrimmar, there is no tension.

Vindicaar was build by draenei on Azeroth, so I guess Argunite was not the only fuel it can use. We did get to Argus on Vindicaar without it...

It was said draenei were completely out of resources following Argus campaign, so they could not help immediately during War of Thorns, but how long it takes for them to gather these resources is beyond me. I'd think the whole Alliance could actually harvest some stuff to have Vindicaar for events like Battle of Dazar'Alor or confrontation of Sylvanas at Orgrimmar, where such a technology could save countless Alliance lives.

Powering the Vindicaar to get from Azeroth to Argus (via the open portal between the two) took everything that the Draenei had been conserving for years. Once on Argus, they restocked the vessel with Argunite resources to continue the campaign, as it made a suitable replacement for whatever they had been previously using. But the voyage back to Azeroth apparently emptied the tanks again, leaving the Vindicaar essentially out of commission (not unlike the Illidari Fel Hammer's plight during and after Legion). Of course the open question here is why not use Azerite - but it may be that the Vindicaar couldn't accept it, or that it couldn't be successfully transported to the Vindicaar now in orbit.

From a external narrative standpoint, the Vindicaar would basically be a deux ex machina for the Alliance and remove a lot of drama from the equation, so having it be out of fuel in high orbit is a good way to remove it from the equation, so to speak. As for the Dragonflights, they were largely de-powered at the conclusion of Cata are no longer the powers they once were, not to mention that with all of them being currently unable to bear new progeny they are all effectively endangered species. It would make sense they would absent themselves from a conflict that would only spell more of their deaths.

[Loveliest]

The problem here is that there are various people who refuse to understand the damage this faction has done and from what I see Blizzard also refuses to understand. The lore suffers in order for that faction to be able to do what they did while every possible opposition either becomes too passive or too stupidly neutral and of course they refuse to make them pay consequences. A faction that has done more damage than the Scourge or the Legion but hides behind the term Playable Faction to escape any reparations repeating the same stupid outcome of scapegoating the Warchief. Of course the lore will again bend in order for Azeroth to trust them enough like BFA never happened.

Can we see for once actual consequences even to playable factions? Like hard consequences.

Well let's not speak in romantic terms. It was a war. Who won the war? Did Alliance win? I don't think it won? The leader ran away and Alliance did what? An armistice?
And if they did win, what would we expect to see? Turn in war criminals, pay reparations, maybe give up their territory completely? What consequences would you like to see?
And in regards to this, Alliance also has to pay for waging war against the Zandalari and there Horde "won" too and their leader ran away. Talanji / Tyrande are both unhappy n the same vein. But unlike Sylvanas, Jaina has also been forgiven through the armistice and remained part of her faction.

So I'm just gonna assume that when they did the armistice they accepted to live with two un happy leaders and neither of their people will get reparations. And for all that is holy, please don't go telling that "Sylvanas did much worse, Jaina didn't do genocide", because neither side seemed to have been punished in any way. The war wasn't actually won by either side, the war just stopped and there was truce.

[Vaedan]

Powering the Vindicaar to get from Azeroth to Argus (via the open portal between the two) took everything that the Draenei had been conserving for years. Once on Argus, they restocked the vessel with Argunite resources to continue the campaign, as it made a suitable replacement for whatever they had been previously using. But the voyage back to Azeroth apparently emptied the tanks again, leaving the Vindicaar essentially out of commission (not unlike the Illidari Fel Hammer's plight during and after Legion).

Of course the open question here is why not use Azerite - but it may be that the Vindicaar couldn't accept it, or that it couldn't be successfully transported to the Vindicaar now in orbit.

As I said, having Vindicaar off limits somewhat makes sense during War of Thorns and early stages of the Fourth War. Before Argus campaign, it was only draenei who took care of Vindicaar's construction and maintanance, so I guess they were the only one who gathered required materials.

That changed a bit with Fourth War. With a vessel strong enough to puncture walls of Antorus, I find it really hard to believe Alliance would not be interested in making it online again. Turalyon himself invested to the war effort in Arathi and since Vindicaar was shown to be in hands of Lightforged (who also took their part in war), it is just wasted opportunity. While we don't know what exactly fueled Vindicaar before and how rare it is, the pay off for finding it seems really great, instead of sending adventurers to Island Expedition in search of Azerite which was hardly used in war campaign anyway.

[jackofwind]

I get infracted for calling out a fact that we have a genuine Velf jihadi on the forum? I cant possibly be the only one that's sick to his stomach of his unhinged ranting. But w/e god forbid i infringe somebodies right to drag this forum deeper in a toxic deranged muck.

You're the only doing any unhinged ranting here, and you know exactly why you were infracted. It doesn't have anything to do with the topic of your post and everything to do with the delivery.

[Sekach]

You're the only doing any unhinged ranting here, and you know exactly why you were infracted. It doesn't have anything to do with the topic of your post and everything to do with the delivery.

But a thread about a quest sequence in a SL covenant summing the game until that point has everything to do with genociding blood elves to the last child?

[jackofwind]

But a thread about a quest sequence in a SL covenant summing the game until that point has everything to do with genociding blood elves to the last child?

You're still not making any sense. Are you mad about this quest sequence? That this thread exists? That someone said something you didn't like about elves?

Try to explain what you're mad about as if I was a toddler.

[loras]

Does it really matter if they get a scolding or not? A scolding is the best they can get from consequences.

They should be stalked by a procession of old ladies saying "Shame!" whenever they go to a capital city.
Also bells.

[Sekach]

You're still not making any sense. Are you mad about this quest sequence? That this thread exists? That someone said something you didn't like about elves?

Try to explain what you're mad about as if I was a toddler.

Are you mad that someone is disrupting the free flow of cringeworthy garbage on this thread that long since derailed into yet another debate on the culpability of the horde and its playerbase? Seems to me you can say just about anything as long you make a halfhearted effort to mask it with roleplaying.

[jackofwind]

Are you mad that someone is disrupting the free flow of cringeworthy garbage on this thread that long since derailed into yet another debate on the culpability of the horde and its playerbase? Seems to me you can say just about anything as long you make a halfhearted effort to mask it with roleplaying.

I'm not mad about anything, I'm trying to talk to you so I can understand why you're upset and we can have a dialogue.

[schwank05]

The problem here is that there are various people who refuse to understand the damage this faction has done and from what I see Blizzard also refuses to understand. The lore suffers in order for that faction to be able to do what they did while every possible opposition either becomes too passive or too stupidly neutral and of course they refuse to make them pay consequences. A faction that has done more damage than the Scourge or the Legion but hides behind the term Playable Faction to escape any reparations repeating the same stupid outcome of scapegoating the Warchief. Of course the lore will again bend in order for Azeroth to trust them enough like BFA never happened.

Can we see for once actual consequences even to playable factions? Like hard consequences.

I know I want to be the Evil faction, that is why I picked the Horde to play the monster races and be an Evil Undead.

[Sekach]

I'm not mad about anything, I'm trying to talk to you so I can understand why you're upset and we can have a dialogue.

Perhaps you have noticed, my dear enthusiastically diplomatic friend, that there is a person on this forum that zealously derails every single discussion at the merest mention of a single race in the most obscene manner. This person has a trail of nigh-psychotic written garbage a mile long and seems more stubborn and omnipresent than herpes yet everyone seems to have just shrugged and come to terms with this.

[Aucald]

If you want to have a dialogue about a subject unrelated to this thread, then take it to PM's please.

[FelPlague]

BTW I just wanna say how funny it is Op asked a question, and then just vanished never to post again...

[jackofwind]

Perhaps you have noticed, my dear enthusiastically diplomatic friend, that there is a person on this forum that zealously derails every single discussion at the merest mention of a single race in the most obscene manner. This person has a trail of nigh-psychotic written garbage a mile long and seems more stubborn and omnipresent than herpes yet everyone seems to have just shrugged and come to terms with this.

I actually hadn't noticed, but it doesn't seem like something that would really upset me anyways. What race are you talking about, Void Elves or Blood Elves? It seems to me that getting upset one way or another about any WoW lore (other than criticizing its often poor writing and delivery) is a fruitless endeavor. They simply exist as Blizzard writes them, and any stories they generate serve only to further the purposes of the game.

In any event I'm sorry this poster irritates you so much and I wonder if you wouldn't be happier simply putting them on ignore. Certainly avoiding infractions is easy enough to do by avoiding ad hominems in general, but I find my mood improves when I remove offending things from my sight and sphere of interaction.

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If you want to have a dialogue about a subject unrelated to this thread, then take it to PM's please.

Duly noted.

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I know I want to be the Evil faction, that is why I picked the Horde to play the monster races and be an Evil Undead.

Can a faction really be considered evil if they're intentionally written not to be though? Speculation is meaningless when Blizzard calls all the shots.

If Blizzard decided to write a new direction for the Horde and made the entire faction into a really single-minded turnip farming syndicate it's not like anyone could say "No, that's not right! We're the Horde, we're eeeevil" and have it hold any weight. Neither the Horde or the Alliance are evil, because Blizzard does not write them as such. They are both exactly as gray as Blizzard says they are at any given point in time, because Blizzard's writing style is "tell, don't show."

[Eggroll]

Can we see for once actual consequences even to playable factions? Like hard consequences.

Night elves say hello.