What's the scolding horde players get at the start of the Ardenweald's covenant?

[Combatbutler]

I wouldn't say they are that unrealistic considering you described a way of how that can happen. In any case only Blizzard knows if the Alliance is able to enforce all these or not. Not you or I. The fact remains that if they wanted faction wars they should have brought up actual consequences.

You misunderstand subdue, it does not mean outright invading them, but rather containing these elements in their nations, the moment the Alliance outright tries to launch an invasion like you proposed the former members would feel threatened as well, expecting Alliance aggression and starting to band together again.

[Darth-Piekus]

Over all horde seems pretty close to the scourge but not even close to the legion, It’s also very likely I’m forgetting a ton of stuff.

The horde as of wow has,
Plagued lorderon.
Plagued south shore.
Blown up a school of Druids in stone talon.
Burned down teldrasila.
Plagued dark shore.
Destroyed the vale of eternal blossoms.
Bombed thereamore.
Plagued various area’s in northrend.

The scourge going back to WC3 has. Destroyed lorderon/plague lands.
Destroyed the ghost lands.
Cause the dead scar.
Tainted the sun well.
Destroyed part of zul,drak.
Killed most of the vykral.
And just abunch of rampaging in northrend.

The legion going way back but sticking just to Azeroth.
Causes the sundering.
Destroyed dalaran.
Birthed the scourge.
Destroyed nodstila.
Corrupted the scarlet crusade.
Destroyed fel wood.
Desoteyed the blasted lands.
Destroyed all kinds of things in legion.

You forgot to add to the Horde the part where they released Nzoth, made a deal with Helya, made a deal with Azshara and both could have been devastating in the long run, having an Orc Warchief messing up with another timeline endangering Azeroth to another threat eventually bringing the Legion faster and of course helping the undead Warchief to get enough power so she can split the veil between life and death messing up everything and Azeroth being in danger yet again. I don't know. Seems to me that they have the Scourge beat and they are close to the Legion.

[Eldrathian]

You make it sound like the entire horde burned the tree.
It was literally like 10 guys with catapults.

[Darth-Piekus]

You misunderstand subdue, it does not mean outright invading them, but rather containing these elements in their nations, the moment the Alliance outright tries to launch an invasion like you proposed the former members would feel threatened as well, expecting Alliance aggression and starting to band together again.

I would say more like something like the Second War without the camps. To be under heavy supervision, to have characters friendly to the Alliance in their leadership, to have the political factions of the whole world ready in case another mad Warchief happens and finally to make them repair the damage they have done at least what can be repaired.

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You make it sound like the entire horde burned the tree.
It was literally like 10 guys with catapults.

You must be joking.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

You forgot to add to the Horde the part where they released Nzoth, made a deal with Helya, made a deal with Azshara and both could have been devastating in the long run, having an Orc Warchief messing up with another timeline endangering Azeroth to another threat eventually bringing the Legion faster and of course helping the undead Warchief to get enough power so she can split the veil between life and death messing up everything and Azeroth being in danger yet again. I don't know. Seems to me that they have the Scourge beat and they are close to the Legion.

I suppose you could count making a deal with Azshara but they didn’t free Nzoth them selfs that was all Azshara and it’s only fair to blame them for things they actually did when it comes to comparing to the legion/scourge other wise almost all of this would fall into the legion/scourges fault making them still worse.

Any way
The deal with helya didn’t read to any actual harm.

Garrosh wasn’t war chief after SoO so that’s not at the hordes feet.

Sylvanas wasn’t war chief after SoO 2.0 so splitting the vail isn’t on them either.

[Accendor]

thats bullshit because you as a player have no choice but to partake in those things, i should not be called out when i have nothing do with that, its just bad writing all together

You are right, it is bad writing. Its even worse because even if your character never quested on Kul Tiras, never did the warcampaign, never participated in the war of thorns or warfronts, canonically you were still part of it.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

You make it sound like the entire horde burned the tree.
It was literally like 10 guys with catapults.

Even if not directly responsible the horde still defended the act by defending sylvanas.

[Okacz]

You make it sound like the entire horde burned the tree.
It was literally like 10 guys with catapults.

Don't play this down, there was an entire campaign that razed two zones to the ground and culminated in burning the tree. Everyone in the Horde played their part to make it happen. 10 guys with catapults, come on.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

That's what happens when one of your major warcries(lok'tar ogar) implies a mindset that is mutually exclusive with civilization.

Victory or death isn’t mutually exclusive with civilization pretty much every major thread to Azeroth has been a victory or death senecio for every civilization.

[Nnyco]

The problem here is that there are various people who refuse to understand the damage this faction has done and from what I see Blizzard also refuses to understand. The lore suffers in order for that faction to be able to do what they did while every possible opposition either becomes too passive or too stupidly neutral and of course they refuse to make them pay consequences. A faction that has done more damage than the Scourge or the Legion but hides behind the term Playable Faction to escape any reparations repeating the same stupid outcome of scapegoating the Warchief. Of course the lore will again bend in order for Azeroth to trust them enough like BFA never happened.

Can we see for once actual consequences even to playable factions? Like hard consequences.

Ah yes, remember when the horde destroyed a planet like the legion.

[Darth-Piekus]

I suppose you could count making a deal with Azshara but they didn’t free Nzoth them selfs that was all Azshara and it’s only fair to blame them for things they actually did when it comes to comparing to the legion/scourge other wise almost all of this would fall into the legion/scourges fault making them still worse.

Any way
The deal with helya didn’t read to any actual harm.

Garrosh wasn’t war chief after SoO so that’s not at the hordes feet.

Sylvanas wasn’t war chief after SoO 2.0 so splitting the vail isn’t on them either.

Correction the Horde loyalists were complicit to whatever the Warchief asked them. Sylvannas the leader of the Horde wanted Nzoth free and she made a plan for that. Secondly the deal didn't bring any hard because Genn was there to stop it in time. Thirdly Garrosh wasn't Warchief but there were lots of Horde and then True Horde loyalists who aided his escape. Fourthly Sylvannas would not have had the power to split the veil had the Horde decided not to help her in a war that gave her many souls to make her strong enough so she could battle the pathetic version of the Lich King.

[Aucald]

You are right, it is bad writing. Its even worse because even if your character never quested on Kul Tiras, never did the warcampaign, never participated in the war of thorns or warfronts, canonically you were still part of it.

I think it's basically considered canon that on moving to a new expansion your character completed the main storylines of the previous one - this would include the War Campaign in BfA when moving on to Shadowlands.

[Combatbutler]

I would say more like something like the Second War without the camps. To be under heavy supervision, to have characters friendly to the Alliance in their leadership, to have the political factions of the whole world ready in case another mad Warchief happens and finally to make them repair the damage they have done at least what can be repaired.

Again unrealistic, the Alliance is in no position to enforce such demands, nor can they drive home such an agenda for decades, even of they get the horde to split up the moment they put real pressure on any of the former allies the rest will know what is up and intervene, because they would logically assume the alliance would try to occupy them next.

[Darth-Piekus]

Ah yes, remember when the horde destroyed a planet like the legion.

Careful what you wish for. There is a little planet called Outlands former known as Draenor destroyed by the Orcish Horde after meddling with powers out of their reach. This Horde is a continuation of the Orcish Horde. So in a manner of speaking they did destroy their own planet.

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Again unrealistic, the Alliance is in no position to enforce such demands, nor can they drive home such an agenda for decades, even of they get the horde to split up the moment they put real pressure on any of the former allies the rest will know what is up and intervene, because they would logically assume the alliance would try to occupy them next.

Im not saying occupying them. More like controlling and removing the dangerous elements that made the Horde do what they did twice. If they are in a position to do it or not only Blizzard knows.

[Accendor]

Yeap... I don't trust the writers much, but it would be hilarious if Tyrande committed genocide. Imagine the 180.

"It was justified!"
"Vengeance!"
"LoL Suck it Horde players!"... One could make a Bingo game out of it, because humans gon' human, even if they did pick the "good" faction in a PC game.

What you fail to understand is that a Genocide of whole horde right now would indeed be justified. That's the whole problem. From an alliance PoV the horde is worse than the scourge, the burning legion or N'zoth. They are enemies of life itself that revel in slaughter and bloodshed. Honor and peace are meaningless to them.
Nobody would shed a single tear, if the Alliance went on a crusade against the legion and simply kills every Demon left in existance. The same is now true for the horde and IMO it shouldn't be this way. A playable faction should not make a turn from "savage warriors who struggle with their sins of the past" to "Genocidal maniacs, who enjoy letting children watch their impaled parents bleed to death" in a single expansion, yet here we are.

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I think it's basically considered canon that on moving to a new expansion your character completed the main storylines of the previous one - this would include the War Campaign in BfA when moving on to Shadowlands.

Yes, that way basically what I wanted to say.

[FelPlague]

I suppose you could count making a deal with Azshara but they didn’t free Nzoth them selfs that was all Azshara and it’s only fair to blame them for things they actually did when it comes to comparing to the legion/scourge other wise almost all of this would fall into the legion/scourges fault making them still worse.

Any way
The deal with helya didn’t read to any actual harm.

Garrosh wasn’t war chief after SoO so that’s not at the hordes feet.

Sylvanas wasn’t war chief after SoO 2.0 so splitting the vail isn’t on them either.

Oh you must not know then.

Making the deal with Helya who is in cahoots with nzoth and sylvanas.

Come BFA they make deals with ashvane to free her as payment and deliver her to azshara. As she and the pirates the horde were giving supplies to worked with azshara. Sylvanas then meets back up with Helya in the maw and well... Their plan is back on action.

[Accendor]

Ah yes, remember when the horde destroyed a planet like the legion.

Are you kidding me? The horde literally destroyed Draenor lol

[Accendor]

You make it sound like the entire horde burned the tree.
It was literally like 10 guys with catapults.

No... Not really.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Correction the Horde loyalists were complicit to whatever the Warchief asked them. Sylvannas the leader of the Horde wanted Nzoth free and she made a plan for that. Secondly the deal didn't bring any hard because Genn was there to stop it in time. Thirdly Garrosh wasn't Warchief but there were lots of Horde and then True Horde loyalists who aided his escape. Fourthly Sylvannas would not have had the power to split the veil had the Horde decided not to help her in a war that gave her many souls to make her strong enough so she could battle the pathetic version of the Lich King.

Sylvanas did want N’zoth free but she didn’t take any steps to do it beyond making a deal with Azshara to get her the heart, this would mean the horde is callable for giving her the heart but not what she did with it afterwords as Azshara made her own choices after getting it that weren’t related to the horde j any way.

For example if we held the legion to the same standard then every thing the horde did post legion would be on them as they wanted the horde and alliance to fight in legion leading into every thing sylvanas did. The only way to compare these factions right is to only weigh there own choices and actions other wise every thing sylvanas did goes back to the scourge and every thing they and the horde did go back to the legion.

Any ways.

As far as heyla goes we can’t quantify what didn’t happen so there was no actual harm.

Garrosh was ousted from the horde and a new war chief put into place his actions past that point only track to him and a few black rock orcs who were also no longer part of the horde.

Same with sylvanas she was supported only by people who were no longer part of the horde when it came to the vail so that doesn’t track.

Supporting her does but that just falls under things like burning the tree pleaging lorderon ect as they stopped supporting her before the whole vail thing.

[kflay]

I mean you say that as if thats a bad thing.

Tara Strong, TImmy turner, power puff girls... My little pony... Teen titans go...

batman the killing joke, witness infection, Samuri jack, rick and morty, Star wars, Batman, Guardians of the galaxy, family guy, Dark deception, and many more

just cause someone voice acted on a kids show like MLP does not mean they havent also voice acted for a murdering cannibalistic psychopath.

I enjoyed MLP