What's the scolding horde players get at the start of the Ardenweald's covenant?

[Minikin]

Wanna bet on it becoming thrice?

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I like what I'm reading here... ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Aside from the topic: the link in your signature is so heart breaking

[VladlTutushkin]

I'd rather be "cucked" (lol at that term) than having my faction used as the go-to instigator of every conflict just because it's easier, or the writers have more (but not enough) interest in the Horde than they do in the Alliance.

And there's still a fucking big difference between how Alliance players exist now, vs having an entire half of your playerbase punished for writer's decisions just to appease the whiny other half, which is what's been suggested in this very thread and others.

You dont have to punish playerbase if you do something to the faction. Gameplay will not change, i am not arguing for any “real” penalties. However “lorewise” something must happen since its a TWO factional game and it just feels like one faction exists to be a torture porn actor for another each time writers get that “itch”.

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Aren't they just having nice time "in the donjon"? Jailer gives me strong darkholme vibes.

No, as far as we see he digests all the souls the same, leaving either clumps aka “abominations” of twisted and drained souls or plain husks devoid of anything.

[Darth-Piekus]

Because the punishment you and others ask for, would be imposed on players rather than those pulling the strings and FORCING players into whatever they envision for the factions.

Petty, in other words. I didn't ask for my faction to be made the aggressor twice, exactly how am I whiny for expecting to not face gameplay-altering punishment in-game?

Clue: I'm not. If they want to do something to the players choosing to play as loyalists, be my guest. I however expect to be able to visit the same areas as I could before they pulled BfA out their asses. Same again when we return to the "faction" war crap in the future. Same when I login to one of my 25+ Alliance characters.

Why even bother indeed, because it's ALWAYS been the case that they cannot punish players to appease the other side as a result of writing. It's why the faction war is toothless at best, damaging at worst. In MoP they at least had the decency to write players into being on the side of the uprising against the warmongers.

TLDR: Asking that they punish players in petty revenge for the other half of the playerbase, is idiotic. The faction "war", is idiotic for as long as it always makes one faction out of 2 to be the bad guy, with the narrative depth of a puddle.

That is the problem here. What you described already happening to the other playerbase. They lost Darnassus, Theramore, Southshore,Andorhal. Areas they can't visit anymore apart from Chromie and they can't quest there anymore. The gameplay of two whole races was altered because of those loyalists. I'm pretty sure if they accepted it then so can the other half.

[Protean]

Nightfae sounds like the My Little Pony faction. There have to be some voice actresses from MLP among them.

Great news is, if you hadn't watched a show for little girls you wouldn't think that way.

Nothing wrong with MLP, it's high quality and my daughter loves watching it. Lot of talented voice in that show.

[Scrysis]

I'd rather be "cucked" (lol at that term) than having my faction used as the go-to instigator of every conflict just because it's easier, or the writers have more (but not enough) interest in the Horde than they do in the Alliance.

And there's still a fucking big difference between how Alliance players exist now, vs having an entire half of your playerbase punished for writer's decisions just to appease the whiny other half, which is what's been suggested in this very thread and others.

Yup.

You dont have to punish playerbase if you do something to the faction. Gameplay will not change, i am not arguing for any “real” penalties. However “lorewise” something must happen since its a TWO factional game and it just feels like one faction exists to be a torture porn actor for another each time writers get that “itch”.

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No, as far as we see he digests all the souls the same, leaving either clumps aka “abominations” of twisted and drained souls or plain husks devoid of anything.

Yup.


I honestly hate how lopsided and 2-dimensional things are. Personally, factions have to change.

Although, to be honest, they might be working on it (slowly). Sylvanas has ALWAYS been a mustache-twirling villain, so they had to remove her from the Horde before they can enact any meaningful change.

[VladlTutushkin]

Yup.



Yup.


I honestly hate how lopsided and 2-dimensional things are. Personally, factions have to change.

Although, to be honest, they might be working on it (slowly). Sylvanas has ALWAYS been a mustache-twirling villain, so they had to remove her from the Horde before they can enact any meaningful change.

I just hope they dont put it the way that makes night elfs “evil” for not hugging it out with the horde because some blonde human forgave the genocide in their stead. That would be just on another level of cringe.

[kflay]

Great news is, if you hadn't watched a show for little girls you wouldn't think that way.

Nothing wrong with MLP, it's high quality and my daughter loves watching it. Lot of talented voice in that show.

Yeah I watched the first 5 or so seasons of it. Still sometimes think of catching up on the most recent seasons. It was just an honest thought that they sound a lot like the voice actresses on that show. It wasn't necessarily meant to be negative. Although I'm not quite sure how I feel about those kind of characters in WoW. Gilblins also had a strong MLP vibe in terms of their behaviour.

[Verdugo]

i dont, but i mean it seremed liek you were trying to make a point that voice actors can only fit 1 role.

I think what he wanted to say is that everyone sounds like if they were working on MLP.

I have to agree, entire zone of things sounding like Mylune is a little bit too much.

[kflay]

i dont, but i mean it seremed liek you were trying to make a point that voice actors can only fit 1 role.

No, but it's not that I was thinking about any particular voice actress, just the way the characters sound reminds me of the ponies on MLP, so I thought that was probably intentional.

[Raisei]

Clue: I'm not. If they want to do something to the players choosing to play as loyalists, be my guest. I however expect to be able to visit the same areas as I could before they pulled BfA out their asses. Same again when we return to the "faction" war crap in the future. Same when I login to one of my 25+ Alliance characters.

Why even bother indeed, because it's ALWAYS been the case that they cannot punish players to appease the other side as a result of writing. It's why the faction war is toothless at best, damaging at worst. In MoP they at least had the decency to write players into being on the side of the uprising against the warmongers.

I am not disagreeing, but you need to understand that what you "expect" is exactly what the Alliance expected and expects and we are for the second time disappointed in that expectation. The second time now we had a Horde Warchief go crazy and the Alliance has paid for it with a city, while the Horde itself lost nothing. Not just that. For the second time we are forced to just shrug and leave the Horde be as it is. No safeguards are implemented from the Alliance side to ensure that we do not loose another city. Nothing.
We are just told to hope the Horde is serious about keeping the peace this time. Then we see the Horde council in Shadows Rising basically on the edge of starting a war immediatedly again. Showing that they learned nothing and it only needs a slight tilt and another of our cities burns.

The Alliance is simply fed up being the punching ball for the Horde whenever it has no demons or undead to kill, if the Horde would pay itself for it's own stupidity only once that would be a refreshing change to that dynamic.

[Darth-Piekus]

I am not disagreeing, but you need to understand that what you "expect" is exactly what the Alliance expected and expects and we are for the second time disappointed in that expectation. The second time now we had a Horde Warchief go crazy and the Alliance has paid for it with a city, while the Horde itself lost nothing. Not just that. For the second time we are forced to just shrug and leave the Horde be as it is. No safeguards are implemented from the Alliance side to ensure that we do not loose another city. Nothing.
We are just told to hope the Horde is serious about keeping the peace this time. Then we see the Horde council in Shadows Rising basically on the edge of starting a war immediatedly again. Showing that they learned nothing and it only needs a slight tilt and another of our cities burns.

The Alliance is simply fed up being the punching ball for the Horde whenever it has no demons or undead to kill, if the Horde would pay itself for it's own stupidity only once that would be a refreshing change to that dynamic.

There is a problem here though. What Queen describes happened already to the Alliance side. Their gameplay was altered not once but twice. First with Theramore, Andorhal, Southshore, Alterac and then with Darnassus. They cant visit these areas anymore apart from Chromie and they cant do these quests anymore. If the Alliance side had to be punished why should the other side escape the consequences?

[Accendor]

Thats not the same horde. Its like saying the alliance caused the sundering because azhara and her nightelves let the demons on the planet.

There are two major problems with your statement:
1. It was not "the nightelves", it was Ashzara and the Highborn. A small faction with great impact. On the other hand it was the complete horde.
2. Even assuming we ignore fact 1,the difference is still that the Night Elves stopped doing stupid shit after that, while the horde just continued. Thats the whole point here. The horde was basically redeemed after MoP and Legion. Peace was possible. That completely changed with BfA. The current horde is not better than the one that destroyed Draenor.

[Zuben]

That's sadly the average Horde player mindset. They like to tag along with the nasty leaders because they are "interesting" and "for mah Horde", then they dismiss all the ingame blame they get.

How is that different from a spoiled kid who wants to do things and rejects all responsibility?

The difference is in what is allowed. If a spoiled kid is allowed to reject responsibility, why wouldn't they? Usually the world drops the hammer on such people, but in this case the Horde got out scot-free. Why would we lament for the Alliance's suffering? We were sold this war as a way to change the balance of power in our favour. When the plan didn't work we had to press on to survive; with Teldrassil's unexpected destruction it felt like the Alliance would go down hard on us if we lost. In the end neither side lost and the Alliance lacked the ability to press on from there, so an armistice without demands for reparations was established. We all know it was written that way because Blizz doesn't want to upset the status quo between playable factions, but even so it leaves us in a situation where we get to walk away, leaving everything behind us. We are technically responsible for a lot of bad shit, but we reject it, because we can; by Blizzard's narrative the Horde isn't evil.

For what it's worth, I think the writing sucks too.

[Raisei]

There is a problem here though. What Queen describes happened already to the Alliance side. Their gameplay was altered not once but twice. First with Theramore, Andorhal, Southshore, Alterac and then with Darnassus. They cant visit these areas anymore apart from Chromie and they cant do these quests anymore. If the Alliance side had to be punished why should the other side escape the consequences?

Oh I agree. That is what I meant. At the moment it seems that it is always the Alliance paying the price when the Horde goes into genocide mode while in the aftermath the Horde never faces any consequences.

Even the goddamn Loyalists are left off the hook completely. They could have just left the restriction of being hated in Orgrimmar and being unable to use banks and AH there for a while at least. But even that was too much punishment apparently and obviously the Loyalists learned the lesson perfectly: "I can do what I want, nothing has consequences."

It frustrates me endlessly that the devs are seemingly fine with how we are standing. I truely hope that BFA was the last time we saw this nonesense happening. But I know that the "Only Evil Horde is Horde"-Lobbyists have been crying endlessly already, so I am sure the faction war will return soon.

[Darth-Piekus]

Oh I agree. That is what I meant. At the moment it seems that it is always the Alliance paying the price when the Horde goes into genocide mode while in the aftermath the Horde never faces any consequences.

Even the goddamn Loyalists are left off the hook completely. They could have just left the restriction of being hated in Orgrimmar and being unable to use banks and AH there for a while at least. But even that was too much punishment apparently and obviously the Loyalists learned the lesson perfectly: "I can do what I want, nothing has consequences."

It frustrates me endlessly that the devs are seemingly fine with how we are standing. I truely hope that BFA was the last time we saw this nonesense happening. But I know that the "Only Evil Horde is Horde"-Lobbyists have been crying endlessly already, so I am sure the faction war will return soon.

Sometimes I wonder if they are playing the right game because this is War (Craft) not Warhammer. In fact Warhammer was better in that kind of scenario since you have the Destruction Faction who was evil to the core but on the other hand the Order Faction was bring down all evil fanatic to the core and there were actual consequences in that game.

[Scrysis]

I just hope they dont put it the way that makes night elfs “evil” for not hugging it out with the horde because some blonde human forgave the genocide in their stead. That would be just on another level of cringe.

I'm hoping they take a more nuanced approach. You can have Tyrande be an enraged avatar of vengeance, but keep Shandris a voice of reason. Avoiding war doesn't mean that you're a push-over. Logically speaking, as the leader of the night elves, Tyrande is actually being ridiculously irresponsible (maybe it's the power of the Night Warrior?). She's pursuing a personal vendetta against a single fugitive while she's effectively left her people homeless, leaderless, and grieving. A real leader would put the personal vendetta aside. Right now, the Horde are shame-faced and even have changed their government. You don't have to trust them to sue for some sort of war reparations. Horde burned down the Night Elf capital? You make them pay for it as a cost of the peace treaty they want. Materials and laborers to clear out the rubble and rebuild. Negotiations to maybe remove the Horde presence out of Ashenvale, or, if the Horde won't won't comply with that, an insistence that they change how they harvest the forest. Rebuild the capital. Food for the now thousands of homeless refugee Night Elves. And let's throw the worgen in there too, since that was another of Sylvanas' crimes. Remove infected plants and wildlife so that the Gilneans can go back home.

But no. Tyrande doesn't do any of that. What does she do instead? She throws a tantrum and storms out and abandons both her people and the negotiating table. And that's fine for an unstable character. She's just thinking of Malfurion and her rage at Sylvanas. But there need to be mentally stable character leaders who see a bigger picture. Otherwise it all becomes cringe. And we need players to be able to see that it doesn't make those characters "weak" or "push-overs".

[formerShandalay]

I'm hoping they take a more nuanced approach. You can have Tyrande be an enraged avatar of vengeance, but keep Shandris a voice of reason. Avoiding war doesn't mean that you're a push-over. Logically speaking, as the leader of the night elves, Tyrande is actually being ridiculously irresponsible (maybe it's the power of the Night Warrior?). She's pursuing a personal vendetta against a single fugitive while she's effectively left her people homeless, leaderless, and grieving. A real leader would put the personal vendetta aside. Right now, the Horde are shame-faced and even have changed their government. You don't have to trust them to sue for some sort of war reparations. Horde burned down the Night Elf capital? You make them pay for it as a cost of the peace treaty they want. Materials and laborers to clear out the rubble and rebuild. Negotiations to maybe remove the Horde presence out of Ashenvale, or, if the Horde won't won't comply with that, an insistence that they change how they harvest the forest. Rebuild the capital. Food for the now thousands of homeless refugee Night Elves. And let's throw the worgen in there too, since that was another of Sylvanas' crimes. Remove infected plants and wildlife so that the Gilneans can go back home.

But no. Tyrande doesn't do any of that. What does she do instead? She throws a tantrum and storms out and abandons both her people and the negotiating table. And that's fine for an unstable character. She's just thinking of Malfurion and her rage at Sylvanas. But there need to be mentally stable character leaders who see a bigger picture. Otherwise it all becomes cringe. And we need players to be able to see that it doesn't make those characters "weak" or "push-overs".

Well, that's not entirely true. They are not homeless, they moved back to Nordrassil and Tyrande is there and stays there up until Sylvanas's Mawsworn goons come to kidnap her, like the other leaders (Anduin, Thrall, Jaina and Baine). I mean, she gave Thrall her choice words for reparations, which is Sylvanas's head on a plate, served by the Horde. Buuut.. they can't deliver (which is not really their fault of course) and she gets attacked by Sylvanas again. Tyrande destroys the attackers and only then goes out to get that head herself. Also, she's the Nightwarrior now and her job is getting revenge. Malfurion is still there and can lead, because he has to anyway (because at least going by all the other Nightwarriors she is going to die to this anyway, if not in combat, then because of the Nightwarrior power).

[Scrysis]

Well, that's not entirely true. They are not homeless, they moved back to Nordrassil and Tyrande is there and stays there up until Sylvanas's Mawsworn goons come to kidnap her, like the other leaders (Anduin, Thrall, Jaina and Baine). I mean, she gave Thrall her choice words for reparations, which is Sylvanas's head on a plate, served by the Horde. Buuut.. they can't deliver (which is not really their fault of course) and she gets attacked by Sylvanas again. Tyrande destroys the attackers and only then goes out to get that head herself. Also, she's the Nightwarrior now and her job is getting revenge. Malfurion is still there and can lead, because he has to anyway (because at least going by all the other Nightwarriors she is going to die to this anyway, if not in combat, then because of the Nightwarrior power).

Is that from the book? I only have to go by the in-game cinematics I've seen. She still could have tried to negotiate the Horde into providing either labor or resources. And honestly, it probably would have worked. I don't fault Tyrande here, to be honest. She's always been a bit more of an aggressive personality.

What I do fault is this stupid adherence to "two factions" idea for the sake of pvp. They could bring in the idea of mercenary guilds or outlaw organizations for pvp, and that would shake things up a lot. Imagine something like the defias brotherhood or something going on a criminal rampage for money, and the Kirin Tor coming in to get involved (some idea like that). The two-faction pvp idea forces them to do dumb story ideas just to preserve it. Alliance and Horde have seen so many earth-shattering threats that it doesn't make sense at this point for them to still be fighting each other. Eject the bad eggs, make an accord, and set up a mutual watch organization to watch for the next dire threat to Azeroth. Does this happen? Nope.

[formerShandalay]

Is that from the book? I only have to go by the in-game cinematics I've seen. She still could have tried to negotiate the Horde into providing either labor or resources. And honestly, it probably would have worked. I don't fault Tyrande here, to be honest. She's always been a bit more of an aggressive personality.

What I do fault is this stupid adherence to "two factions" idea for the sake of pvp. They could bring in the idea of mercenary guilds or outlaw organizations for pvp, and that would shake things up a lot. Imagine something like the defias brotherhood or something going on a criminal rampage for money, and the Kirin Tor coming in to get involved (some idea like that). The two-faction pvp idea forces them to do dumb story ideas just to preserve it. Alliance and Horde have seen so many earth-shattering threats that it doesn't make sense at this point for them to still be fighting each other. Eject the bad eggs, make an accord, and set up a mutual watch organization to watch for the next dire threat to Azeroth. Does this happen? Nope.

Yea, the part with the Nightelves moving to Nordrassil and making Thrall promise Sylvanas's head is from the book, the attack on Tyrande (and the other leaders) is from SL. She is the only one they can't capture.
From what can be read in the book, it seems the Nightelves wouldn't even accept Horde workers for anything. I mean, it's Thrall who goes to Nordrassil (who actually was a personal friend to Tyrande and Malfurion and wasn't even on Azeroth when Teldrassil burned) and even he thinks Tyrande might kill him once he stands before them and feels their collective grief even in the surroundings of Nordrassil. I really liked that scene in the book and I thought it made abundantly clear that the Nightelves as a whole want nothing but revenge and to never see an outsider set foot in their home again. They were still quite ...uh... self-controlled, even though Thrall had brought Calia with him, who just couldn't keep her mouth shut again and thought it clever to make requests.


And honestly, I agree about the factions. I would love to see the players be able to join -actually join- the neutral factions and also the evil factions, at least if they could create evil factions that don't want to destroy the cosmos (because then we'd be at the point where they'd have to always lose again).
They could do real pvp between the 'good' and 'evil' factions and then some arenas and footbomb games (or anything like that really) for everyone (with neutral only able to partake in arena-like pvp and "games").
And if they're not fighting about whatever, the real battles could be with outside threats, which have to be investigated and fought. Give each faction something they really excel in and give them storylines playing to those strengths. If we really pro-actively investigated threats instead of only stumbling upon them by accident, it would maybe even make sense that we win, because we catch their plans early enough. But the way it is now we always happen to win even though we don't even know what exactly we're dealing with and we are always surprised that those plans have been in motion for years or even millennia, but ... it doesn't matter, because we're the players and we win. It just doesn't feel good that way, at least not for me.

[VladlTutushkin]

Is that from the book? I only have to go by the in-game cinematics I've seen. She still could have tried to negotiate the Horde into providing either labor or resources. And honestly, it probably would have worked. I don't fault Tyrande here, to be honest. She's always been a bit more of an aggressive personality.

What I do fault is this stupid adherence to "two factions" idea for the sake of pvp. They could bring in the idea of mercenary guilds or outlaw organizations for pvp, and that would shake things up a lot. Imagine something like the defias brotherhood or something going on a criminal rampage for money, and the Kirin Tor coming in to get involved (some idea like that). The two-faction pvp idea forces them to do dumb story ideas just to preserve it. Alliance and Horde have seen so many earth-shattering threats that it doesn't make sense at this point for them to still be fighting each other. Eject the bad eggs, make an accord, and set up a mutual watch organization to watch for the next dire threat to Azeroth. Does this happen? Nope.

And i dont think horde would have agreed to provide ANYTHING. They are surprisingly hesitant for a “shamed” faction. But who am i kidding - they dont feel shame. They feel uneasy, maybe uncomfortable by the implication but not actually ashamed of what they did. Like, even Thrall only came to Nordeassil because HE needed something from elfs - he needed their help with “elements being disturbed” again and was coerced into coming there by some Earthen Ring shaman who knew him. He fucken apologised only when he figured out that he might have barged into a really sticky situation and that his position is very close to death right now. And then he thought some more and promised her to bring in Sylvanas head next time to save his hide from being flayed on the spot. Convincing “larger” horde to give up a single copper or a peon or to remove a single soldier from Ashenvale (which they are obligated to do by prior treaty when they got Azshara for that) is nigh impossible. Its the same thing as when Thrall was afraid to “start conflict” with Warsong clan when they raided night elfs even during peace treaty and trade agreement in Vanilla. He knew they were breaking it but was too wary of horde lashing back at him for “showing weakness” so he did nothing. Horde always seeks war, one way or another. Only way to cure them of that is to shove so much war down their throats that they choke, when their children die in agony and their parents watch in despair then they will learn not to seek war.