Page 17 of 22 FirstFirst ...
7
15
16
17
18
19
... LastLast
  1. #321
    I am Murloc! Thekri's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    A highly disgruntled constituent of Lindsey Graham.
    Posts
    5,909
    Quote Originally Posted by Biglog View Post
    Unfortunately for Armenia, the timing of this conflict was absolutely horribly unlucky. Once in a great while in war, there is an innovation that makes an old weapon obsolete. In the 1940's aircraft carriers made battleships obsolete. Rifles made fighting with shields and swords obsolete. Well, in 2020 we learned that good drones can make most current ground armor obsolete. And this lesson was taught to the world in NK mostly at the expense of the Armenian army. This is why I hope for humanity's sake that the Armenians pull back and save themselves. Because they are being hunted down like fish in a barrel right now and have no defense at all vs. the Azeri/Turkish drones. At this point the Azeris are running out of Armenian armor to hit. Armenia cannot continue the NK conflict much longer without an answer to the drones.
    A dramatic oversimplification. While my previous post about the complexity of anti-Drone efforts is true, it is wildly overstepping to declare modern armor in any way obsolete. @Easo is absolutely right that the Age of Tanks is far from over. Azerbaijan's use of Armor has been even worse then Armenia's. The conflict broke down into what it always does, the infantry. There are lot of issues at play here, and while drones are getting the most press, they are far from the only, or even most decisive element in this conflict.

    The videos of Azeri "Breaches" of obstacle belts paint the more clear picture of why it is a stalemate. A rolling breach is the most complicated and nuanced operation an armored force can perform, and the Azeri's look like they have never heard of the concept. Vehicles packed into the breach lane, no obscuration, no supporting positions, stationary vehicles on the far side of the breach, etc. The problem isn't armor being obsolete, the issue is many of the militaries in that area of the world are focused on controlling domestic populations, and are not adequately trained or studied in actual warfare. While Azerbaijan clearly had a strategic plan, and operational goals, they had absolutely no grasp of the tactical tasks required to make it reality. Armenia had a similar showing on the defense, they seem to have adopted a static defense in depth that avoided massing effects to avoid a single decisive engagement. Since both nations avoided the sort of decisive conflict that could have ended the fight in days, stalemate was the inevitable result.

    It is in the context of the previous paragraph that Drones have excelled. Really only in that context, since the numbers employed are simply not sufficient to deal with massed armor formations. It is stalemate by design, created by politics and politicians. Drones are going to break down high value targets because they have had weeks to hunt down and destroy isolated and unprotected vehicles.

    Edit: Side note, there is plenty of Armenian Armor left. There isn't much Artsakh Armor left. Armenia hasn't committed its armored forces en masse yet. Armenia could still win this fight with a decisive deployment of their national military.
    "We have it totally under control. It’s one person coming in from China. We have it under control. It’s going to be just fine." DJT- Jan 22, 2020
    "And again, when you have 15 people, and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero, that’s a pretty good job we’ve done." DJT- Feb 26, 2020
    “It’s going to disappear. One day — it’s like a miracle — it will disappear.” DJT- Feb 27, 2020

  2. #322
    Brewmaster Yadryonych's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Матушка Россия
    Posts
    1,341
    Quote Originally Posted by Biglog View Post
    Once in a great while in war, there is an innovation that makes an old weapon obsolete. In the 1940's aircraft carriers made battleships obsolete. Rifles made fighting with shields and swords obsolete. Well, in 2020 we learned that good drones can make most current ground armor obsolete.
    Haven't they been droning people down since war on terror started (2001)? it's not about drones being overpowering, it's about small countries not having a substantial anti-aircraft defence
    Lives matter

  3. #323
    I am Murloc! Thekri's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    A highly disgruntled constituent of Lindsey Graham.
    Posts
    5,909
    Quote Originally Posted by Yadryonych View Post
    Haven't they been droning people down since war on terror started (2001)? it's not about drones being overpowering, it's about small countries not having a substantial anti-aircraft defence
    Have been droning people down since 1944 actually. The technology has obviously advanced a lot, but it wasn't a concept that sprung into existence in the 2000s. The US used drones in both Vietnam and Korea as well.

    Drones can outperform manned air craft in contested airspace, due to being far more easily replaceable if they are taken down. You can lose a lot of drones for the cost of SU-37 with a trained pilot.
    "We have it totally under control. It’s one person coming in from China. We have it under control. It’s going to be just fine." DJT- Jan 22, 2020
    "And again, when you have 15 people, and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero, that’s a pretty good job we’ve done." DJT- Feb 26, 2020
    “It’s going to disappear. One day — it’s like a miracle — it will disappear.” DJT- Feb 27, 2020

  4. #324
    Quote Originally Posted by Thekri View Post
    Have been droning people down since 1944 actually. The technology has obviously advanced a lot, but it wasn't a concept that sprung into existence in the 2000s. The US used drones in both Vietnam and Korea as well.

    Drones can outperform manned air craft in contested airspace, due to being far more easily replaceable if they are taken down. You can lose a lot of drones for the cost of SU-37 with a trained pilot.
    No figher drones yet, though, and won't be for decades. Contested airspace in war between the big boys will mean fighter jets going against fighter jets and swatting drones away. There is lack of good enough remote control for dogfights (this is not slow ass Reaper flying, you need perfect signal during high speed combat), still vulnerable to EW (actually even more vulnerable compared to a piloted plane who can at least manually execute tasks) and especially vulnerable to ballistic missile arriving to say hello to command center.
    The most obvious current solution is rebuilding existing jets into drones and even that is not easy or that cheap, you need to rebalance the whole plane - ejection seat, life support, whole cockpit takes a lot of mass, need to do something about it unless going the cheapo way by just replacing ejector seat with remote control mechanism which limits the gains.

    You also cannot do something like swarm F-35 with cheap drones - they at best will see "something" on their lower grade radars (price/performance, again) and will need to get close, while said F-35 will be firing BVR missiles at them during meantime untouched. The whole concept just does not work. It might in the future, but at the point where a drone can realistically engage real fighter jet it will start to cost close to a real fighter jet. I don't think fighter drone swarms will overwhelm pilots, pilots themselves will be "on the ground" and jets will be flown remotely.

    As for full autonomy? Yeah, I will probably be in a grave long before the "AI" will be good enough to independently fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thekri View Post
    Edit: Side note, there is plenty of Armenian Armor left. There isn't much Artsakh Armor left. Armenia hasn't committed its armored forces en masse yet. Armenia could still win this fight with a decisive deployment of their national military.
    The other way around. It is Arstakh that had some 300-400 tanks (with ~1/3 of them lost by now) and Armenia with some ~100. But Armenia is the one having the cool toys - the new Su's, Iskanders, etc. But indeed, there still are tanks to burn...

    P.S.
    Su-37 is not a thing :P Well, it was, but then the single prototype crashed almost 2 decades ago.
    Last edited by Easo; 2020-10-28 at 12:01 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Take that haters.
    IF IM STUPID, so is Donald Trump.

  5. #325
    I am Murloc! Thekri's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    A highly disgruntled constituent of Lindsey Graham.
    Posts
    5,909
    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    No figher drones yet, though, and won't be for decades. Contested airspace in war between the big boys will mean fighter jets going against fighter jets and swatting drones away. There is lack of good enough remote control for dogfights (this is not slow ass Reaper flying, you need perfect signal during high speed combat), still vulnerable to EW (actually even more vulnerable compared to a piloted plane who can at least manually execute tasks) and especially vulnerable to ballistic missile arriving to say hello to command center.
    The most obvious current solution is rebuilding existing jets into drones and even that is not easy or that cheap, you need to rebalance the whole plane - ejection seat, life support, whole cockpit takes a lot of mass, need to do something about it unless going the cheapo way by just replacing ejector seat with remote control mechanism which limits the gains.

    You also cannot do something like swarm F-35 with cheap drones - they at best will see "something" on their lower grade radars (price/performance, again) and will need to get close, while said F-35 will be firing BVR missiles at them during meantime untouched. The whole concept just does not work. It might in the future, but at the point where a drone can realistically engage real fighter jet it will start to cost close to a real fighter jet. I don't think fighter drone swarms will overwhelm pilots, pilots themselves will be "on the ground" and jets will be flown remotely.

    As for full autonomy? Yeah, I will probably be in a grave long before the "AI" will be good enough to independently fight.
    I wasn't referring to outperforming in air combat, I was talking about out performing in tactical combat at the cost effectiveness level, particularly in the CAS and interdiction roles. Keeping manned aircraft on station is extremely expensive, and it just isn't possible to have long term uptime for fast movers over the battlespace, while tactical drones can be damn near omnipresent for a tenth of the cost. As a ground combat commander myself, I am a huge proponent of the "Thing that is available to support is infinitely more valuable then cool toy that isn't available when I need it" school of thought.

    As far as air dominance itself, you are absolutely right, and I don't see drones taking that role for another few decades at least.



    The other way around. It is Arstakh that had some 300-400 tanks (with ~1/3 of them lost by now) and Armenia with some ~100. But Armenia is the one having the cool toys - the new Su's, Iskanders, etc. But indeed, there still are tanks to burn...

    P.S.
    Su-37 is not a thing :P Well, it was, but then the single prototype crashed almost 2 decades ago.
    It isn't the other way around, it is exactly what I said. The Artsakh defense forces are generally larger and more robust then the Armenian Army, but they are also the ones getting pummeled over the last month of fighting. What is left of them is likely to be missing the logistics infrastructure to be an effective fighting force. They absorbed the bulk of the damage that the Azeri's dished out, and they are mostly spent as an offensive force right now, which makes a counterattack from the Artsakh forces very unlikely.

    The Armenian military on the other hand is smaller, but mostly untouched. It is also a generally more professional, better equipped, and better trained force. It hasn't been committed to the fighting yet. If it was to be committed against the now battered Azerbaijani ground forces, it has an excellent chance of quickly regaining the ground that has been lost so far, with the risk of causing a commitment of Turkish ground forces to counteract it. Armored warfare is all about having the logistics base and support infrastructure to mass combat power. The Artsakh forces are unlikely to be able to do so, the Armenians can. Less tanks doesn't really matter in this context.

    The Su-37 was a typo, I was referring to Su-27s. Good catch.
    "We have it totally under control. It’s one person coming in from China. We have it under control. It’s going to be just fine." DJT- Jan 22, 2020
    "And again, when you have 15 people, and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero, that’s a pretty good job we’ve done." DJT- Feb 26, 2020
    “It’s going to disappear. One day — it’s like a miracle — it will disappear.” DJT- Feb 27, 2020

  6. #326
    Quote Originally Posted by Thekri View Post
    I wasn't referring to outperforming in air combat
    I can agree that it is easier and faster (it all depends, of course) to bomb something ASAP with a drone, even if with a smaller payload, than to call CAS aircraft every time. IMHO it is going to be a relative niche anyway, not general idea, full scale CAS or multirole fighter plane still cannot be replaced, nor can drones do cannon runs. Smaller "conflicts" are the most probable future of warfare, big boys are unlikely to have "big boy war" with all hands out, thus drones will be used more. It also means drone countermeasures will be much more widespread and more effective.

    Seems I did not understand your wording, you meant that after all the losses Armenias tank park is bigger. I believe that at this point Artsakh should still have more tanks left than Armenia itself, but everything else, aside from artillery pieces, yeah, gone. IIRC almost all of their Grads are gone, which is painful loss, together with most of AA units, bunch of trucks too, though those can be replaced a bit more easily. What they can't replace is the dead artillery crews, who are their best weapon.

    Well, no one really believes that Artsakh's army is not Armenian army anyway - you cannot have 20k under arms from a 150k populace for decades, realistically at least half of manpower comes directly from Armenian soldiers dressing in different uniform, plus the whole financing thing. Not like it is a well kept secret anyway. 150k people could not maintain hundreds of tanks. Armenia itself has like... 40k reservists? That is why I said all that bullshit Armenian PM said was just that, bullshit - why the need for volunteers when you have untapped reserves? Mobilization? Only on paper.
    Problem is that Armenia cannot directly intervene under the threat of direct war with Azerbaijan (and zero reason for CSTO to defend it then) and you cannot hide all reinforcements just by issuing them Arstakh's flag patch. There is clear indecisiveness in Yerevan. Right now it looks like while Armenians can potentially hold, they have nothing to use for counterattacks. They expended themselves in the failed ones and under drone barrages.

    However, I also do not worry about Azeri reinforcements. They have 100k in reserve and they don't really care about their manpower losses. Hell, they don't even care about removing their own corpses plus they have Syrian mercs for some cannon fodder as well, no one cares about them. And Turkey can "gift" them more drones and smart ammunitions to keep up the offensive, it is not like during the whole war Silkway Airlines has not been making nonstop flights from Turkey to Baku with obvious implications. One more reason to think stalling is not really that bad for Azerbaijan is that it looks like Azeri's are now using fixed wing aircraft to bomb what is left, according to the last reports - they don't fear AA anymore.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Take that haters.
    IF IM STUPID, so is Donald Trump.

  7. #327
    The Unstoppable Force Kellhound's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Bank of the Columbia
    Posts
    20,048
    Quote Originally Posted by Yadryonych View Post
    Haven't they been droning people down since war on terror started (2001)? it's not about drones being overpowering, it's about small countries not having a substantial anti-aircraft defence
    Not cost effective to use a $38,000 missile on a $10,000 drone.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    No figher drones yet, though, and won't be for decades. Contested airspace in war between the big boys will mean fighter jets going against fighter jets and swatting drones away. There is lack of good enough remote control for dogfights (this is not slow ass Reaper flying, you need perfect signal during high speed combat), still vulnerable to EW (actually even more vulnerable compared to a piloted plane who can at least manually execute tasks) and especially vulnerable to ballistic missile arriving to say hello to command center.
    The most obvious current solution is rebuilding existing jets into drones and even that is not easy or that cheap, you need to rebalance the whole plane - ejection seat, life support, whole cockpit takes a lot of mass, need to do something about it unless going the cheapo way by just replacing ejector seat with remote control mechanism which limits the gains.

    You also cannot do something like swarm F-35 with cheap drones - they at best will see "something" on their lower grade radars (price/performance, again) and will need to get close, while said F-35 will be firing BVR missiles at them during meantime untouched. The whole concept just does not work. It might in the future, but at the point where a drone can realistically engage real fighter jet it will start to cost close to a real fighter jet. I don't think fighter drone swarms will overwhelm pilots, pilots themselves will be "on the ground" and jets will be flown remotely.

    As for full autonomy? Yeah, I will probably be in a grave long before the "AI" will be good enough to independently fight.



    The other way around. It is Arstakh that had some 300-400 tanks (with ~1/3 of them lost by now) and Armenia with some ~100. But Armenia is the one having the cool toys - the new Su's, Iskanders, etc. But indeed, there still are tanks to burn...

    P.S.
    Su-37 is not a thing :P Well, it was, but then the single prototype crashed almost 2 decades ago.
    Air dominance drones will us AI to fight, not a remote pilot. Too much signal lag if nothing else. This may not be as far off as you think, DARPA already has an AI that defeated one of the USAF's best F-16 pilots in simulated combat (5-0).
    Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
    “Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered automatic weapons.”
    "His knowledge on that topic is only power point deep..." "Power corrupts and PowerPoint corrupts absolutely."
    "Who's the more foolish? The fool, or the fool who follows him?"

  8. #328
    Armenian military deaths - 1066.
    Both sides are exchanging various missile attack on cities. As usual, after Stepanakert was bombed again Armenians answered in kind. This time - Armenian missile attack was quite serious in size compared to previous ones. There is an new video of double Scud launches from Arstakh.
    For some reason Azeri's seem to be surprised and are caught in open, while Armenians are hiding in bomb shelters and basements. Ultranationalism truly makes people forget that war works both ways.
    Of course this round was followed by both sides screaming about cluster munitions and attacks on civilians, yada yada.

    Meantime Azerbaijani president Aliyev had yet another verbal diarrhea during interview with Interfax:
    https://www.interfax.ru/world/734574

    Если проследить последние 200 лет истории Кавказа, мы увидим, сколько войн всегда возникало из-за них, сколько провокаций они создавали для других стран, а потом, уходя в кусты или прячась за чьими-то спинами, пожинали плоды противостояния и плоды того, что проливалась кровь других народов.

    Мы же прекрасно знаем историю их появления на Кавказе. Исторически армянского этноса в Кавказском регионе не было. Как они сюда попали? Именно таким путем, хитростью, коварством и попытками чужими руками вытаскивать (для себя - ИФ) жареные каштаны. То же самое они делают сейчас.
    translates to

    If we follow the last 200 years of Caucasus history we can see how many wars started because of them (the Armenians), how many provocations they created for other countries, hiding in bushes or behind someone's backs, how they reaped the fruits of confrontation and bloodshed of other nations.

    We perfect know the history of their arrival in Caucasus. Historically there was no Armenian ethnos in Caucasus region. How did they get there? Exactly this way - with cunning , cowardice and attempts of using someone else's hands to grab the roasted chestnuts (it is a saying). They are doing the same now.
    Here we can see yet another attempt by Aliyev and Baku to falsify history (yes indeed, it is far from the first time, goes well together with destroying Armenian gravestones). We know Armenians have been living there for at least two millenia, ffs, their Christian churches are amongst the oldest in the world.
    Yet this cunt is saying that Armenians arrived in Caucasus only 2 centuries ago.
    We had this "discussion" in this thread already, where local Turkish and Azeri posters attempted to present this piece of fantasy.

    All the bullcrap about living together with Armenians peacefuly in Azerbaijan itself is a lie. New photos from the taken areas in Arstakh with destroyed crosses are pretty telling.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    Not cost effective to use a $38,000 missile on a $10,000 drone.

    Air dominance drones will us AI to fight, not a remote pilot. Too much signal lag if nothing else. This may not be as far off as you think, DARPA already has an AI that defeated one of the USAF's best F-16 pilots in simulated combat (5-0).
    It is also not cost effective to use ATGM's against infrantry but here we are. Javelins versus talibs, anyone? Last one - Karabakh. Bean counters can demand whatever they want, but soldiers in battle won't care how much it costs if it works.

    That's why I mentioned the remote control issues during realtime action. Much easier to bomb some insurgents who have no AA to speak of and can't run anywhere, even from a slow ass prop plane (which is what US strike drones are, at least now).
    I saw that video but it has a big problem - it is simulation only and made for press. We don't really know how big the real progress is... Realistically - decades. IIRC there are no projects in actual development for autonomous combat "AI". Knowing how fricking long new hardware is introduced, yeah, most likely decades.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Take that haters.
    IF IM STUPID, so is Donald Trump.

  9. #329
    Brewmaster Yadryonych's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Матушка Россия
    Posts
    1,341
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    Not cost effective to use a $38,000 missile on a $10,000 drone.
    Not very cost-effective to lose men and vital infrastructure to a $10,000 drone. Also, they use CRAM cannons against drones and projectiles they are to cast
    Lives matter

  10. #330
    The Unstoppable Force Kellhound's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Bank of the Columbia
    Posts
    20,048
    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    Armenian military deaths - 1066.
    Both sides are exchanging various missile attack on cities. As usual, after Stepanakert was bombed again Armenians answered in kind. This time - Armenian missile attack was quite serious in size compared to previous ones. There is an new video of double Scud launches from Arstakh.
    For some reason Azeri's seem to be surprised and are caught in open, while Armenians are hiding in bomb shelters and basements. Ultranationalism truly makes people forget that war works both ways.
    Of course this round was followed by both sides screaming about cluster munitions and attacks on civilians, yada yada.

    Meantime Azerbaijani president Aliyev had yet another verbal diarrhea during interview with Interfax:
    https://www.interfax.ru/world/734574



    translates to



    Here we can see yet another attempt by Aliyev and Baku to falsify history (yes indeed, it is far from the first time, goes well together with destroying Armenian gravestones). We know Armenians have been living there for at least two millenia, ffs, their Christian churches are amongst the oldest in the world.
    Yet this cunt is saying that Armenians arrived in Caucasus only 2 centuries ago.
    We had this "discussion" in this thread already, where local Turkish and Azeri posters attempted to present this piece of fantasy.

    All the bullcrap about living together with Armenians peacefuly in Azerbaijan itself is a lie. New photos from the taken areas in Arstakh with destroyed crosses are pretty telling.




    It is also not cost effective to use ATGM's against infrantry but here we are. Javelins versus talibs, anyone? Last one - Karabakh. Bean counters can demand whatever they want, but soldiers in battle won't care how much it costs if it works.

    That's why I mentioned the remote control issues during realtime action. Much easier to bomb some insurgents who have no AA to speak of and can't run anywhere, even from a slow ass prop plane (which is what US strike drones are, at least now).
    I saw that video but it has a big problem - it is simulation only and made for press. We don't really know how big the real progress is... Realistically - decades. IIRC there are no projects in actual development for autonomous combat "AI". Knowing how fricking long new hardware is introduced, yeah, most likely decades.
    The over use of ATGMs is one of the reasons the LAW has made a comeback.

    Hardware is easy when it comes to drones, its the software that takes time. In fact, the US has QF-16s already. The software DARPA used took less than a year to write. What is really going to limit AI combat is fear, not ability.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Yadryonych View Post
    Not very cost-effective to lose men and vital infrastructure to a $10,000 drone. Also, they use CRAM cannons against drones and projectiles they are to cast
    There are multiple cost effective ways to deal with smaller drones.
    Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
    “Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered automatic weapons.”
    "His knowledge on that topic is only power point deep..." "Power corrupts and PowerPoint corrupts absolutely."
    "Who's the more foolish? The fool, or the fool who follows him?"

  11. #331
    Keyboard Turner ThomasDiSantare's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2020
    Location
    San Francisco
    Posts
    8
    Yes, the entire Internet is full of videos about Azerbaijan destroying Armenian equipment and armed forces. And fresh videos. And also the fact that the Armed Forces of Azerbaijan suffered heavy losses in military equipment, the initial strength of their "fist" was broken.

  12. #332
    Current Armenian military deaths - 1166. Again mostly boys from ~2000's, if this keeps going on they will have demograhic issues.

    Seems that Armenians still have issues with hiding their equipment. However, one must remember that Azeri videos are highly redacted (even more that at the beginning, when attacks on decoys and misses could be spotted) and shows only the successful attacks. Drones can loiter for hours and wait until the right time after all. Propaganda war is definitely won by Baku, not Yerevan.
    On the other hand - Azeri's clearly have no idea what counter battery fire is, or at least effective one. Sure it looks impressive when a drone blows up artillery piece, but then you take a look at the piles and piles of spent shell casings around it and you understand that this artillery piece has been firing unmolested for days. And we do know that Armenian artillery crews are pretty good. Truly, without drones Azerbaijan would be stuck not far from the border.

    Some tactics change can be seen by Azeri's - they have started to target the artillery crews more than the guns themselves. A conclusion can be drawn.

    P.S.
    Anyone wanna talk about sudden activation of various totally-not-Azeri social accounts close before the war?
    Totally-not-planned xD

    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    The over use of ATGMs is one of the reasons the LAW has made a comeback.

    Hardware is easy when it comes to drones, its the software that takes time. In fact, the US has QF-16s already. The software DARPA used took less than a year to write. What is really going to limit AI combat is fear, not ability.
    From what I understand it is mostly flown remotely by ground crew just like the existing strike drones. I mean target drones are nothing new, QF-4, anyone? Autopilot is also old as hell, we just don't trust it to do 100% of the landings (and zero for take-off's), while it could do that.
    Look, how much time 5th gen development has taken and still is taking? Current focus is on new bombers and 6th gen, which still will be going into decades. There is little reason to think that fighter drones will be implemented in just few years. Machine learning is cool, but it will be long road until 100% reliable 100% unmanned autonomous fighter jet will engage enemy target's on it's own. Hardware itself? Sure, absolutely agree, not like you need new missiles, engines or targetting systems. Still there is a lot of dead weight when converting F-16's into drones, purpose built ones would have better use of space and mass.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Take that haters.
    IF IM STUPID, so is Donald Trump.

  13. #333
    Turkey at it again. Kurds and Armenians? Just crazy.

  14. #334
    The Unstoppable Force Kellhound's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Bank of the Columbia
    Posts
    20,048
    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    Current Armenian military deaths - 1166. Again mostly boys from ~2000's, if this keeps going on they will have demograhic issues.

    Seems that Armenians still have issues with hiding their equipment. However, one must remember that Azeri videos are highly redacted (even more that at the beginning, when attacks on decoys and misses could be spotted) and shows only the successful attacks. Drones can loiter for hours and wait until the right time after all. Propaganda war is definitely won by Baku, not Yerevan.
    On the other hand - Azeri's clearly have no idea what counter battery fire is, or at least effective one. Sure it looks impressive when a drone blows up artillery piece, but then you take a look at the piles and piles of spent shell casings around it and you understand that this artillery piece has been firing unmolested for days. And we do know that Armenian artillery crews are pretty good. Truly, without drones Azerbaijan would be stuck not far from the border.

    Some tactics change can be seen by Azeri's - they have started to target the artillery crews more than the guns themselves. A conclusion can be drawn.

    P.S.
    Anyone wanna talk about sudden activation of various totally-not-Azeri social accounts close before the war?
    Totally-not-planned xD



    From what I understand it is mostly flown remotely by ground crew just like the existing strike drones. I mean target drones are nothing new, QF-4, anyone? Autopilot is also old as hell, we just don't trust it to do 100% of the landings (and zero for take-off's), while it could do that.
    Look, how much time 5th gen development has taken and still is taking? Current focus is on new bombers and 6th gen, which still will be going into decades. There is little reason to think that fighter drones will be implemented in just few years. Machine learning is cool, but it will be long road until 100% reliable 100% unmanned autonomous fighter jet will engage enemy target's on it's own. Hardware itself? Sure, absolutely agree, not like you need new missiles, engines or targetting systems. Still there is a lot of dead weight when converting F-16's into drones, purpose built ones would have better use of space and mass.
    It is just a matter of getting it to the point it can launch against a target that fails IFF interrogation for BVR combat. Converting obsolete fighters into drones is a cost effective way to introduce and experiment with AI commanded fighters.
    Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
    “Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered automatic weapons.”
    "His knowledge on that topic is only power point deep..." "Power corrupts and PowerPoint corrupts absolutely."
    "Who's the more foolish? The fool, or the fool who follows him?"

  15. #335
    Battles are ongoing near Shusha, like 5-10 km away from it(officialy by the Artsakh authorities) - I think the decisive phase of the war is here. If Shusha falls, Artsakh is likely doomed. Stepanakert is close enough to be directly bombarded from Shusha.
    Armenians lost big part of their Smerch units, dealing another expensive blow. I have no idea what they will do after war, Armenia does not have the money to replace all those losses. And it is naive to think that there won't be border skirmishes afterwards anyway. Or if Azeris decide that they need to link up with Nachivan while the enemy is beaten down, pretext would be easy to find and legitimise.
    Right now they are loosing close to hundred men each day. If their strategy was to hold out until Azeri's run out of the expensive toys then it clearly has failed, because the later has not happened.

    P.S.
    A video with Azeri cutting off ear of dead Armenian soldier, plus another one what looks like dragging dead bodies with tied habds around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    It is just a matter of getting it to the point it can launch against a target that fails IFF interrogation for BVR combat. Converting obsolete fighters into drones is a cost effective way to introduce and experiment with AI commanded fighters.
    That check will probably be a very hard part. Computer will need to be 146% sure that the target indeed is not friendly or neutral, even with IFF response failing. But bigger issue, imho, is the actual target recognition and engagement on their own, before some drone bombs a cluster of friendly troops. You won't really have IFF tags on infrantry.
    As for the second part, yes, USA is already doing it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Take that haters.
    IF IM STUPID, so is Donald Trump.

  16. #336
    So Armenains are getting their ass handed to them.

    - Enjoy status-quo instead of trying to broker a peace when you had to upper hand
    - Resettle people not only into NK but also occupied territories of Azerbaijan proper.
    - Introduce "New war for new territoriy" doctrine to legitimize further invasion of Azerbaijan (they actually thought we would allow it xD)
    - Officially adopt Treaty of Sevres as state policy

    Extremely aggressive for a farce of a country such as Armenia.

    Susha and Lachin will hopefully liberated soon, so does their NK aggression. If Armenia is smart, they would try to strike a permanent peace deal with some cultural rights for Armenians in there.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang View Post
    South and West claims are all about the allowed 200 nautical miles EEZ claims allowed by the Law of the Sea. At its narrowest point, the sea between Libya and Greece is only about 140 nautical miles, thus it is logically settled with the principle of equidistance. The West corner you're seeing is a bit less than 200 nautical miles from the coast of Peloponnese, and matches the corresponding 200 miles claim from Italy and Libya.

    Notice those are EEZ claims, not territorial water claims.

    But where is your map from? On most sources the claimed area is different around Kastellorizo, which is the main point of contention, beside Turkey's disregard for Island nations EEZ rights.

    Greek map is also maximalist. ICJ won't give that EEZ to Kastellorizo. In fact, that island wouldn't get any EEZ judging by prior verdicts.
    Last edited by Kuntantee; 2020-10-31 at 07:14 PM.

  17. #337
    Scarab Lord Zaydin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    FL, USA
    Posts
    4,025
    So Azerbaijan allegedly is using phosphorus chemical weapons in violation of international law.

    I say allegedly because the source there can't exactly be declared impartial.
    "If you are ever asking yourself 'Is Trump lying or is he stupid?', the answer is most likely C: All of the Above" - Seth Meyers


  18. #338
    I am Murloc! Thekri's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    A highly disgruntled constituent of Lindsey Graham.
    Posts
    5,909
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaydin View Post
    So Azerbaijan allegedly is using phosphorus chemical weapons in violation of international law.

    I say allegedly because the source there can't exactly be declared impartial.
    There are a couple other videos of it as well. That is definitely WP, but everything else about the video is unknown. We don't know when that video was taken, we don't know where it was taken, and we don't know which side used it.

    WP is one of those weapons that literally everyone uses, everyone gets called out on it, but ultimately nobody cares. It is just much to useful, and it costs basically nothing to make, so I wouldn't expect it to change anything.
    "We have it totally under control. It’s one person coming in from China. We have it under control. It’s going to be just fine." DJT- Jan 22, 2020
    "And again, when you have 15 people, and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero, that’s a pretty good job we’ve done." DJT- Feb 26, 2020
    “It’s going to disappear. One day — it’s like a miracle — it will disappear.” DJT- Feb 27, 2020

  19. #339
    The Unstoppable Force Kellhound's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Bank of the Columbia
    Posts
    20,048
    Quote Originally Posted by Thekri View Post
    There are a couple other videos of it as well. That is definitely WP, but everything else about the video is unknown. We don't know when that video was taken, we don't know where it was taken, and we don't know which side used it.

    WP is one of those weapons that literally everyone uses, everyone gets called out on it, but ultimately nobody cares. It is just much to useful, and it costs basically nothing to make, so I wouldn't expect it to change anything.
    Technically, its use against military targets is ok for incendiary purposes. It is its use as a toxic chemical agent or its use against civilians that is prohibited.
    Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
    “Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered automatic weapons.”
    "His knowledge on that topic is only power point deep..." "Power corrupts and PowerPoint corrupts absolutely."
    "Who's the more foolish? The fool, or the fool who follows him?"

  20. #340
    I am Murloc! Thekri's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    A highly disgruntled constituent of Lindsey Graham.
    Posts
    5,909
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    Technically, its use against military targets is ok for incendiary purposes. It is its use as a toxic chemical agent or its use against civilians that is prohibited.
    It is used for obscuration, it is specifically not allowed for use as an incendiary. I have used it myself for obscuration (In training). Everyone has it and uses it for that. But those are not obscuration charges.
    "We have it totally under control. It’s one person coming in from China. We have it under control. It’s going to be just fine." DJT- Jan 22, 2020
    "And again, when you have 15 people, and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero, that’s a pretty good job we’ve done." DJT- Feb 26, 2020
    “It’s going to disappear. One day — it’s like a miracle — it will disappear.” DJT- Feb 27, 2020

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •