War (?) has broken out in Nagorno-Karabakh between Armenia and Azerbaijan

[Kuntantee]

Could this be because Armenian nation has been facing a genocide and constant harassment by her friendly neighbours, I just wonder? People believe Armenia because nothing unusual is happening, actually

Armenians facing a genocide? What are you smoking?

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Oh, yes. The phrase "it's the other way around" obviously conveys this specific information. How could anyone have missed that and think it instead points fingers at a specific group.

So tell me, what would Azerbaijan do if they took the territory? Be nice to the locals?

This was the statement I was addressing. Context matters.

[Thekri]

Could this be because Armenian nation has been facing a genocide and constant harassment by her friendly neighbours, I just wonder? People believe Armenia because nothing unusual is happening, actually

Well, to be clear, I actually do not believe Armenia particularly. However, since much of what they are reporting is perfectly in line with what any reasonable person would expect, I find most of it likely to be true.

For instance, Azerbaijan is obviously the aggressor here. Armenia didn't, and couldn't have attacked into the rest of Azerbaijan, because they have no interest in taking more of Azerbaijan, they have no goals there, and they aren't dumb enough to start that fight. Meanwhile, Turkish and Azerbaijan's rhetoric has been entirely about conquering Nagorno-Karabakh, so even though I don't trust Armenia particularly, it is pretty obvious they are telling the truth on this.

It is the same way with the Russian claims. I don't trust Russia any more then I trust Turkey, but since their claims seem to directly align with the obvious nature of what is happening, their claims are more credible then Turkey's blatant lies. Furthermore, especially in that region of the world "X country is doing something nefarious" is just a lot more believable then "X country is a saint that is doing nothing wrong". There are claims of Armenia bringing in Kurdish fighters from Northern Iraq as well, and those are also probably true.

It is a lot like when our Turkish friend pointed out that the Armenians had massacred Azerbaijanis back in the early 20th century. Well yes, they did do that. That is not mutually exclusive with the Azerbaijani government also slaughtering them. Which is my whole position in the matter. As long as Nagorno-Karabakh is controlled by the Armenians, we aren't likely to see any ethnic cleansing. If Nagorno-Karbakh is ruled from Baku, we probably will. I don't really like the concept of ethnic enclaves, but when the racial disputes go back as far as this one, there is really no other way for an ethnic minority to survive. It is absolute insanity to think that Baku is going to rule an Armenian population fairly.

[Mehrunes]

Erdogan is also head of a NATO nation, but you do not take his words, do you? And I was expecting the Russian claims being denied because they are Russians. So in essence, you do not require any evidence if a statement aligns with your narrative while you dismiss any statement that you do not agree as being not reliable. Anti-intellectualism is a plague.

Except the important part of what @Thekri said wasn't that Macron is a head of a NATO nation. The keyword there was that he's the head of another NATO nation. As in, even a leader of a nation allied with Turkey corroborated Turkey's shitfuckery. That was the point. Meaning that you talking about how Edrogan is a head of a NATO nation as well is completely beyond that point. Because it's flat out redundant in context. That Erdogan is a head of a NATO nation was already explicitly a part of the argument.

Russia bullshits all the time, don't they? France has a big Armenian diaspora so the French will shit lies one after another to vacuum Diaspora's dick. There's lots of votes and money there.

Got any proof of that being a common French practice, or is it supposed to be a "Jews run the world, man" tinfoil hat type of thing?

Latvian says Turkey should be kicked out of NATO. Do you even have an army? Not sure serious or trolling. I do not understand where this entitlement comes to these 3rd worlders...

What does that have to do with anything? The sentiment there is that Turkey is a warmongering nation that disgraces the NATO and acts the way it does because it feels any repercussions for its actions won't ever bite them as long as it is a member. Which would be the actually entitled behavior here.

And Latvia isn't a third world country by any definition. By the original one it's a first world country. And yes, it does have armed forces. Which make for a higher percentage of Latvian population than it's the case in Turkey.

[Kuntantee]

Got any proof of that being a common French practice, or is it supposed to be a "Jews run the world, man" tinfoil hat type of thing?

Why should I provide any proof? The accusation comes from French. They need to show proof that Turkey is recruiting Syrian fighters. Whether there is a strong Armenian Diaspora in France to is irrelevant. You got any proof of bullshit accusations?

What does that have to do with anything? The sentiment there is that Turkey is a warmongering nation that disgraces the NATO and acts the way it does because it feels any repercussions for its actions as long as it is a member. Which would be the actually entitled behavior here.

And Latvia isn't a third world country by any definition. By the original one it's a first world country. And yes, it does have armed forces. Which make for a higher percentage of Latvian population than it's the case in Turkey.

Sorry for calling you brainwashed. However, calling Turkey "warmongering" and "disgrace" is unfair at best and is pretty biased interpretation of what's going on in Syria, Karabakh, Libya as well as East Med. Also, I really hope you mean the country and not nation.

I decided to respond to people with the tone they respond to me. I really had enough of constant insults. Ex-Soviet losers and leechers do not get to criticize Turkey. Simple as that. NATO is an organization to counter Russia and Turkey is actively countering Russia in Syria, Libya. Latvia and Latvians do not get to open their mouths.

Uganda has an armed forces too, that was a rhetorical question.

[Easo]

Latvian says Turkey should be kicked out of NATO. Do you even have an army? Not sure serious or trolling. I do not understand where this entitlement comes to these 3rd worlders...

Are you banned from Google or something? Or are you not aware who your allied countries are? Yes, we do have an army, even have pretty good sappers due to all the crap two world wars have left us. I wonder what you think about Luxembourg's army of 414 people
Baltics by definition cannot be 3rd world countries. And no, I am not trolling, I believe that Turkey does not belong in NATO anymore (though that may change in near future, last elections left Erdogan on a shaky ground). I am far far from the only one with this opinion unless you have been ignoring the mood in NATO...

[Kuntantee]

Well, to be clear, I actually do not believe Armenia particularly. However, since much of what they are reporting is perfectly in line with what any reasonable person would expect, I find most of it likely to be true.

Are you guys for fucking real? You are defining "being reasonable" as being in line with your views.

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Are you banned from Google or something? Or are you not aware who your allied countries are?

Yes, I am aware of who the leechers in NATO are. Latvia is one. The big question is, are you aware of how NATO functions? They have no kicking mechanism.

Yes, we do have an army, even have pretty good sappers due to all the crap two world wars have left us.

"Pretty good sappers" in modern warfare . They're called suicide squads in a world of drone warfare but I have my doubts that your army has anything that flies in their inventory.

I wonder what you think about Luxembourg's army of 414 people

I do not think about them, just like I do not think about other irrelevant countries. The only reason I used the word "Latvia" in succession in the context of NATO is because you are from Latvia and I happen to talk with you.

Baltics by definition cannot be 3rd world countries. And no, I am not trolling, I believe that Turkey does not belong in NATO anymore (though that may change in near future, last elections left Erdogan on a shaky ground). I am far far from the only one with this opinion unless you have been ignoring the mood in NATO...

I believe leechers has no place in NATO, but we do not get what we want all the time, do we?

[Thekri]

Are you banned from Google or something? Or are you not aware who your allied countries are? Yes, we do have an army, even have pretty good sappers due to all the crap two world wars have left us. I wonder what you think about Luxembourg's army of 414 people
Baltics by definition cannot be 3rd world countries. And no, I am not trolling, I believe that Turkey does not belong in NATO anymore (though that may change in near future, last elections left Erdogan on a shaky ground). I am far far from the only one with this opinion unless you have been ignoring the mood in NATO...

Ataturk's version of Turkey definitely belonged in NATO. For decades, Turkey was a prosperous, secular democracy that fit well in NATO. Erdogan's Turkey is an aggressive, nationalistic, Islamic Supremacist dictatorship that seems intent on rebuilding the Ottoman Empire and "restoring our former glory". Typically strongman crap. That doesn't belong in NATO, as it is not a position that is ideologically aligned with actual democracies. Now granted, the US is dealing with its own bout of a similar mindset. It is also damaging our relationship with NATO pretty badly. Both the US and Turkey need to move past this sort of bullshit, and if that doesn't happen, they cannot, and will not, remain allies with countries that remain free and democratic. Nationalistic strongmen make crap allies.

[Kuntantee]

Ataturk's version of Turkey definitely belonged in NATO. For decades, Turkey was a prosperous, secular democracy that fit well in NATO. Erdogan's Turkey is an aggressive, nationalistic, Islamic Supremacist dictatorship that seems intent on rebuilding the Ottoman Empire and "restoring our former glory". Typically strongman crap. That doesn't belong in NATO, as it is not a position that is ideologically aligned with actual democracies. Now granted, the US is dealing with its own bout of a similar mindset. It is also damaging our relationship with NATO pretty badly. Both the US and Turkey need to move past this sort of bullshit, and if that doesn't happen, they cannot, and will not, remain allies with countries that remain free and democratic. Nationalistic strongmen make crap allies.

We are approaching to end of American Hegemony. I am not writing this to piss you off, this is how things are developing. Countries are shifting alliances. EU is trying to be more independent. Germany has different agenda in mind. Turkey is positioning herself against USA and France in particular as interests seem to collide. This isn't about ideology, this is about interests. I often hear people reduce Turkish foreign policies to Erdogan, but what Turkey is doing is what we call "state policy". This may shock you but the policies that Erdogan currently follows are policies developed by Kemalist Army Generals (aka people who are closely aligned with the views of Ataturk).

Our interests with USA may align again, but they need to drop support for PKK. However, if this does not change there are two obstacles to an exit for Turkey from NATO:

- Domestic fighter jets.
- Nuclear missiles.

The first one is in development. Nukes will depend on how threatened Turkey feels.

[Thekri]

We are approaching to end of American Hegemony. I am not writing this to piss you off, this is how things are developing. Countries are shifting alliances. EU is trying to be more independent. Germany has different agenda in mind. Turkey is positioning herself against USA and France in particular as interests seem to collide. This isn't about ideology, this is about interests. I often hear people reduce Turkish foreign policies to Erdogan, but what Turkey is doing is what we call "state policy". This may shock you but the policies that Erdogan currently follows are policies developed by Kemalist Army Generals (aka people who are closely aligned with the views of Ataturk).

Our interests with USA may align again, but they need to drop support for PKK. However, if this does not change there are two obstacles to an exit for Turkey from NATO:

- Domestic fighter jets.
- Nuclear missiles.

The first one is in development. Nukes will depend on how threatened Turkey feels.

Seems like you are making the argument for getting kicked out of NATO yourself. If your agenda isn't aligning with either the US or France, it is probably time to go, because those are the most powerful two members of the alliance (And it isn't like Turkey gets along with Germany or the UK either). NATO is an alliance, not a geographic region. If you aren't aligned with their policy, you don't belong in the alliance, as simple as that.

The "End of US Hegemony" thing is irrelevant to this conversation, since the US is barely involved in any of this. The only relevant part they play in this is that it is our Nukes that are in Turkey, and I definitely think those should be withdrawn. Their presence no longer serves a purpose, and endangers Turkey for no advantage to its population. As far as domestic fighter jets, you should definitely think about building those. Trying to buy S-400s and F-35s at the same time is nothing but fad chasing, you build your military out of equipment from all over the world, and you are shooting yourself in the foot on logistics. And since both the US and Russia increasingly distrust Turkey, you are going to have a hell of a time getting parts for either of those systems.

So by all means, go make your own way in the world. But when you piss off everyone and have no allies, it isn't going to go well for you. Turkey is making no friends (Except Azerbaijan I guess), and they are pissing off damn near everyone. And maybe stop attacking the Kurds and Armenians. There probably won't actually be any consequences for murdering them, because nobody really cares enough to stop you, but it just isn't nice to murder people for their ethnicity.

[CostinR]

So by all means, go make your own way in the world. But when you piss off everyone and have no allies, it isn't going to go well for you. Turkey is making no friends (Except Azerbaijan I guess), and they are pissing off damn near everyone. And maybe stop attacking the Kurds and Armenians. There probably won't actually be any consequences for murdering them, because nobody really cares enough to stop you, but it just isn't nice to murder people for their ethnicity.

Oh there will be consequences, not military ones but absolutely on an economic level.

Won't it be nice when the entirety of the EU lines up behind Greece in the gas dispute ( they already have to a degree ) and tells Erdogan to go away and wouldn't it be nice if Europe stopped accepting transient workers from Turkey.

[Easo]

Yes, I am aware of who the leechers in NATO are. ?

See people, this is how superiority complex looks like. It goes hand in hand with current politics of Turkey and in turn to what is happening in Caucasus. Big words and chest thumping is a common theme.
But yet another warning to you - Erdogan won't rule forever. It is always a mess when "dear leader" is removed from power or shuffles off the mortal coil yet people never learn.
P.S.
Latvia is paying it's 2% due in NATO, but hey, we and probably every other small country are a leech by default in your eyes. Only BIG and STRONG ones, amirite?
Also, good luck with that 5th gen fighter project. I do not think you understand what it requires and how much pipedreaming Turkey has been doing.

[jonnysensible]

after watching some of the stuff coming out of azerbaijan https://twitter.com/simulacrax/statu...72844364361728 its clear to me that the only acceptable outcome is thier complete destruction

[Kuntantee]

See people, this is how superiority complex looks like. It goes hand in hand with current politics of Turkey and in turn to what is happening in Caucasus. Big words and chest thumping is a common theme.
But yet another warning to you - Erdogan won't rule forever. It is always a mess when "dear leader" is removed from power or shuffles off the mortal coil yet people never learn.
P.S.
Latvia is paying it's 2% due in NATO, but hey, we and probably every other small country are a leech by default in your eyes. Only BIG and STRONG ones, amirite?
Also, good luck with that 5th gen fighter project. I do not think you understand what it requires and how much pipedreaming Turkey has been doing.

You'd be useless even if you spend 100% of your GDP. Know your place.

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And maybe stop attacking the Kurds and Armenians. There probably won't actually be any consequences for murdering them, because nobody really cares enough to stop you

This shouldn't come from American. We know what happened in Raqqa.

but it just isn't nice to murder people for their ethnicity.

Damn it. It isn't nice you say? I guess we'll stop mass genociding Kurds and Armenians and eating their babies alive on breakfasts.

[Fuiking]

Congrats you pissed of the local Turk. From personal experience this always happen when you question Turkey/Turks.. They start becoming victims even when they're clearly the culprit. So you cant have any discussions with them because its always someone's else fault.

[Kuntantee]

Oh there will be consequences, not military ones but absolutely on an economic level.

Won't it be nice when the entirety of the EU lines up behind Greece in the gas dispute ( they already have to a degree ) and tells Erdogan to go away and wouldn't it be nice if Europe stopped accepting transient workers from Turkey.

I must be reading the European news from a parallel universe then. It seems to me Germany is not interested in sanctioning Turkey for Greeks. Spain is disinterested in the dispute, so is Italy. Other than France, Greece and Cyprus, the rest is not that invested.

So who is going to sanction Turkey? Mighty Romania and rest of the irrelevant?

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I have been trying to have a civil discussion for so long with some of you. Now, I am responding in the tune you deserve. You do not get to talk about kicking Turkey out of NATO when you are part of a village with 35B GDP. You know your fucking place.

[Thekri]

Congrats you pissed of the local Turk. From personal experience this always happen when you question Turkey/Turks.. They start becoming victims even when they're clearly the culprit. So you cant have any discussions with them because its always someone's else fault.

Yep, it is pretty funny. Latvians can't speak because they are irrelevant, so are Romanians I guess. French can't speak because they are all liars, Armenians and Kurds are terrorists, and Americans can't speak because their history is not perfect (As opposed to Turkey, who has a famously squeaky clean history). Of course Russians can't speak because they are fighting Turkey, and I really hate to ask if Israelis are allowed to speak.

In fact, I am at a loss as to who CAN speak on the issue. Oh, right. Just Turks. And maybe Azerbaijan.

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I have been trying to have a civil discussion for so long with some of you. Now, I am responding in the tune you deserve. You do not get to talk about kicking Turkey out of NATO when you are part of a village with 35B GDP. You know your fucking place.

Well I am an American. We have a substantially larger GDP, we spend rather notably more on our military, and I want Turkey kicked out as well. So please explain why I am also irrelevant to the discussion?

[Kuntantee]

Yep, it is pretty funny. Latvians can't speak because they are irrelevant, so are Romanians I guess. French can't speak because they are all liars, Armenians and Kurds are terrorists, and Americans can't speak because their history is not perfect (As opposed to Turkey, who has a famously squeaky clean history). Of course Russians can't speak because they are fighting Turkey, and I really hate to ask if Israelis are allowed to speak.

In fact, I am at a loss as to who CAN speak on the issue. Oh, right. Just Turks. And maybe Azerbaijan.

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Well I am an American. We have a substantially larger GDP, we spend rather notably more on our military, and I want Turkey kicked out as well. So please explain why I am also irrelevant to the discussion?

It’s obvious that you are an American because your reading comprehension is terrible. Individuals are always irrelevant. I was referring to Latvia being an irrelevant country, which it is. USA is obviously not irrelevant as USA is NATO.

Then again, you are an American who does not know the implication of present cont. tense so I am not really surprised you didn’t understand what is written.

As for your upper circle jerk, I can call French liar as easily as you can call Russians liar but since your head is so in your ass that you can not realize your own bias, even though I have pointed out inconsistencies in your thinking in this very thread, I guess it’s just me “thinking no one should have an opinion”. Keep reflecting though.
[Infraction]

[Thekri]

It’s obvious that you are an American because your reading comprehension is terrible. Individuals are always irrelevant. I was referring to Latvia being an irrelevant country, which it is. USA is obviously not irrelevant as USA is NATO.

Then again, you are an American who does not know the implication of present cont. tense so I am not really surprised you didn’t understand what is written.

As for your upper circle jerk, I can call French liar as easily as you can call Russians liar but since your head is so in your ass that you can not realize your own bias, even though I have pointed out inconsistencies in your thinking in this very thread, I guess it’s just me “thinking every should not have an opinion”. Keep reflecting though.

Oh, I can totally understand my own bias, just as easily as I can understand yours. That is rather my point. I am not going to dismiss your opinion because of what country you are from, like you have done to several others, you are Turkish, and you are free to support Turkey.

My point is that if you don't like the US, and you don't like France, and you want everyone to mind their own business and let Turkey fight its wars, then maybe NATO isn't the club for you. You want to go around pretending it is 1648, and you rule the Middle East with an iron fist, then go ahead. But when you poke Russia a little too much, and they bitch slap you straight back to Ankara, I don't really want to have to send in the 3rd Infantry Division with a couple Latvian Sappers to bail your ass out. I don't really care for the way Turkey flashes around its NATO membership card as a get out of jail free card as they piss of 3/4s of the world, because you still think NATOs heavyweights will have your back if you start a fight. As far as individuals not mattering, I don't, but Macron does. And he seems to be 102% done with Erdogan's shit, if we had a President with a spine, the US would be backing Macron up on this.

Latvia is welcome in NATO, because they don't go starting fights. We don't really need them to be fielding divisions of tanks, they aren't leaching shit, because the whole point of NATO is to protect those smaller countries. The whole deal is if Russia decides it would like to own Latvia, a metric Buttload of French and Germans show up, and an imperial Buttload of Americans and Brits join them. Meanwhile, Latvia contributes in accordance to its size, and plays nice with its neighbors. See the difference? That is why nobody wants to kick Latvia out for being "Irrelevant", but lots of us want to kick Turkey out, because you just don't play well with the team.

[Kellhound]

Latvian says Turkey should be kicked out of NATO. Do you even have an army? Not sure serious or trolling. I do not understand where this entitlement comes to these 3rd worlders...

By definition, Latvia is now a First World country. Latvia's army is almost the same size per capita as Turkey's actually, and they spend a bit more of their GDP than Turkey does. Turkey's army also still fields a significant amount of obsolescent equipment (M48/60 tanks for instance).

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I must be reading the European news from a parallel universe then. It seems to me Germany is not interested in sanctioning Turkey for Greeks. Spain is disinterested in the dispute, so is Italy. Other than France, Greece and Cyprus, the rest is not that invested.

So who is going to sanction Turkey? Mighty Romania and rest of the irrelevant?

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I have been trying to have a civil discussion for so long with some of you. Now, I am responding in the tune you deserve. You do not get to talk about kicking Turkey out of NATO when you are part of a village with 35B GDP. You know your fucking place.

France is far more "important" than Turkey, in almost every regard. Turkey is not in a very strong position in NATO any longer, you are still the redheaded stepchild but you no longer are needed to contain the USSR on the southern flank. You may want to know your place as well.

[Thekri]

Well things actually are changing on the ground now. First, Azerbaijan actually has seized territory now. It isn't much, just small outlying villages near the border, but it is enough to be a major sticking point in any peace talks, since Azerbaijan isn't going to be willing to give them back, and Nagorno-Karabakh isn't going to be willing to lose them. Up until now, a ceasefire in place was generally possible, but a changing front line changes the dynamics of that. Second, Armenia itself is increasing a conflict area, and they are apparently firing artillery into Azerbaijan as well. Armenia was firing a lot of anti-Aircraft missiles near Yeveran last night, they claim to have shot down 4 Azeri drones. We don't know if that is true, but they clearly hit something, from videos of things falling from the sky near Yeveran. Meanwhile, the Turkish Media posted a video of Azerbaijan shooting down a Armenian Drone... except the "Drone" is clearly a AN-2. Which Armenia isn't likely to be flying over Azerbaijan, which leads to this likely being a friendly fire or accidental engagement. Accidental engagements in general are a major risk, there is still a fair amount of civilian air traffic going through the area, so another MH-17 is entirely possible.

Meanwhile, on the diplomatic and international side, things continue to get worse. Armenia pulls its ambassador to Israel, and both Armenia and Azerbaijan have publicly declared each others territories as legitimate targets (Both claiming the other started it, of course). Turkey continues to insult the Minsk group, and promote the full seizure of Nagorno-Karabakh, so no surprise there. Iran is an interesting development, as their large Azeri population seems to be extremely unhappy with Iran backing Armenia. They are rioting, burning Armenian flags, and attacking Iranian security forces. I really don't know what effect this will have on the conflict, but Iran has been dealing with a lot of unrest lately, and they aren't really fond of this Diaspora, so I am legitimately concerned about some really tragic things happening here if Iran cracks down hard on them. This is where the point our Turkish friend has made about the Azeris also being the victims sometimes is very relevant. In Iran, they are the disliked minority with a central government that doesn't support their interests.